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Wilbour
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2016 11:22am
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Just to clarify, not judging one side vs another, just pointing out the different points of view. Generally speaking of course.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2016 02:50pm
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I wasn't questioning the care, I was questioning the "free" which everyone knows it absolutely is not free.
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2016 07:32pm
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This is in Ontario and in a rural area. I don't doubt what my SIL'S told me and I begged the broken arm SIL to give me the doctors phone number and was told not to do that or they would put her back on the bottom of the list!
Have there been changes made in the Canadian healthcare system in wait times? The broken arm was at least 18 years ago and the blood test about two.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2016 09:12pm - Edited by: MtnDon
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There is a word for an involuntary 2 week delay in treating a broken arm. Doesn't matter if we're talking the US or the Canadian system. Abuse. There is no reason to put up with that.
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Borrego
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2016 10:18pm
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I was in CA visiting friends a few years ago, about a year after I had had a bad bout with Pneumonia. I caught a small cold there and it freaked out my friends who thought I might relapse. They were ready to drive me to Buffalo rather than have me chance it in a Canadian hospital..according to them, they had seen friends die due to the long time lapse until treatment. They were serious and had had first hand experience...maybe this is a rare occasion, but it sticks in my mind til this day......
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Salty Craig
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2016 11:18pm
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Fascinating conversation. I'm in the US. I have private insurance and really do think we have some of the best care in the world. As a property owner, I have to pay my bills or a lien is placed on my property. Our system is drained by millions upon millions of illegals who don't own property. They are given the same care as me, and the gov (our taxes) picks up the tab. Without assets you would be a fool to have insurance or pay a hospital bill. The care is the same. There's no screening up front to see if you qualify.
Many of you know that I'm a die hard conservative. My apologies to those who don't appreciate that. We have a major illegal immigration problem. I don't know if fixing that will fix the problems with our healthcare costs, but certainly it should help.
Hopefully this can stay on the forum. Your friend Salty
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Borrego
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2016 03:34pm
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Quoting: Salty Craig They are given the same care as me
Ha...they are given better care. I sat in an emergency room not long ago waiting for my wife, and saw them being taken in without question, fixed up, given meals etc, . We live near the border so the problem is far more obvious but everyone in this country better wake up and pay attention. They cost us in California over $25 billion per year, about $2300 per year for each legal taxpaying citizen.
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2016 06:58pm
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Since you live near the border this means that there is more of a Hispanic population.....
How do you know the people you saw getting emergency medical care are not citizens of The United States? Did you approach them and ask?
My family is from Spain,they came here legally in the 1920's,spoke Spanish at home and out in public.
I suppose if they had come here today some of you would assume they were illegals?
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Salty Craig
Member
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2016 07:39pm
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silverwaterlady
I don't claim who is and who isn't. The statistics are real. The illegals are a huge drain on our Country. Health care being among the largest of their freeloading.
I don't mind legal immigration at all. My ancestors are from other countries.
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Borrego
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2016 07:58pm
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Quoting: silverwaterlady How do you know the people you saw getting emergency medical care are not citizens of The United States? Did you approach them and ask?
It was abundantly clear to everyone in the ER...
Quoting: silverwaterlady I suppose if they had come here today some of you would assume they were illegals?
Not at all, I love LEGAL immigration.
Quoting: Salty Craig Health care being among the largest of their freeloading.
Education is first. Incarceration is huge as well..not to mention welfare, disability all the handouts...
How did we get on immigration anyway? 
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Salty Craig
Member
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2016 08:26pm
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Borrego
My fault. Sorry. Lol
As I was reading all the great healthcare insite, my mind immediately went to one of our biggest problems in that arena. It's easy to see and consider different viewpoints on healthcare. I'll never understand in my lifetime why liberals love illegals so much. Votes comes to mind.
Back to healthcare; Obamacare is great. "Every family will save up to $2,500 per year." Hell, I save that much per week. #sarcasm
"If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor." Good luck with that!
Rates are going up 25% next year and the funny thing is the only people who are effected are the voters who put that man in office. Well done.
Salty Craig
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Borrego
Member
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2016 10:03pm
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Rates going up 116% in Arizona....
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KinAlberta
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# Posted: 5 Nov 2016 07:15pm - Edited by: KinAlberta
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Here's how I see it: in Canada we have one large public sector insurance bureaucracy compared to a far, far larger and more complicated or complex private sector bureaucracy in the US. I prefer smaller, efficient bureaucracies so that is one reason I prefer our system in Canada.
Moreover, what was finally approved and called obamacare in the US I believe is no where near what Obama himself wanted and instead was a horribly compromised deal to make everyone happy. I bet he hates his name on it.
Like giving a committee your plans for your dream home and then after the bean counters and squabbling contractors and designers and regulators and neighbours and every other "stake" and pitchfork holder get done with it, you're handed a FEMA trailer.
Per the article posted on page 1 of this thread (old data but insightful). However, inefficiencies create jobs so that can be good in some ways I suppose, especially in economic downturns where people keep getting sick:
Why Canadian Hospitals Outperform U.S. Hospitals Posted: 02/12/2015 ... If U.S. hospitals ran as efficiently as Canada's, the average U.S. family of four would save $2,000 annually on health care. Moreover, U.S. hospital paperwork costs have risen sharply since 2000, even after adjusting for inflation. In contrast, administration's share of hospital budgets in Canada has actually fallen since 1999. A generation ago, it took just one or two managers to run a U.S. hospital. Now, the CEO has been joined by "chief officers" for operations, finance, compliance, information, quality management, and more. Each chief commands his/her own legions - hundreds of billing and registration clerks, referral managers, upcoding specialists (to translate doctors' diagnoses into the most profitable billing codes), and massive IT departments whose first commandment is "get the bill right." Why are U.S. hospitals so inefficient? Our multiple-payer insurance system forces every hospital to negotiate rates with dozens of insurance plans, each with its own coverage rules, billing procedures and documentation requirements. And each hospital must collect deductibles, co-payments and co-insurance from tens of thousands of patients. http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/steffie-woolhandler/canadian-vs-us-healthcare_b_6663650. html
I'm glad I live in Canada but we can likely vastly improve things here as well.
The best health-care system? The numbers say otherwise
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/the-best-health-care-system-the-numbers-say-ot herwise/article5577290/
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 5 Nov 2016 09:42pm
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Quoting: Salty Craig I don't claim who is and who isn't. The statistics are real. The illegals are a huge drain on our Country. Health care being among the largest of their freeloading. I don't mind legal immigration at all. My ancestors are from other countries.
Great article on how one candidates amnesty plan would cost each household $15,000 in taxes to cover the cost
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/clinton-amnesty-tax-15000-per-household-1.2-trillio n/article/2606575
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Salty Craig
Member
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2016 03:36pm
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toyota_mdt_tech
Right on brother. Stop the bleeding, then look for a cure.
Salty Craig
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MountainSurf
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# Posted: 10 Feb 2020 09:03am
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Canada and Scandinavia - less people. Wish I was at my cabin.
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beachman
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# Posted: 10 Feb 2020 10:06am
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I am in Canada and if you have non life-threatening injury, you might wait a bit for medical assistance. I know first hand that a major problem gets first-rate, fast and excellent attention. The doctor I had took tests immediately, gave me his cell #, forwarded the tests to a major center and had me collect the results right away and told me not to leave the area until these were confirmed, Saw me personally the next morning just in case and then sent me on my way once he was satisfied I was OK.
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Wilbour
Member
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# Posted: 12 Feb 2020 08:24am
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Spam
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spencerin
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# Posted: 12 Feb 2020 11:49pm
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I read everybody's replies and most of the supporting articles and found them all to be.....true. 
Socialized medicine can't work in the US. We can't afford it #1, and #2, our government has proven time and again it effs up almost everything it gets its hands on. In addition, although I'm not against the concept of financial risk-pooling for health expenses, I can think of few things more contradictory than making my own, personal health the financial responsibility of others and subject to the decision-making of the government. This is one of those times when our government is grossly overstepping its bounds.
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DartNorth
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# Posted: 13 Feb 2020 03:27am
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If you buy health insurance from a private company, you are already making your personal health the financial responsibility of others.
If you don't want health coverage for yourself, how about doing it for the families that cant afford private insurance?
As a non American, it baffles me the fight to not get socialized health care there. Private companies are getting rich, and people are going bankrupt.
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beachman
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# Posted: 13 Feb 2020 09:59am
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This is a difficult argument. Had monies not been squandered for other things that took priority over health care, this might have been possible in the US. Speaking as a dual citizen, healthcare is not a hot topic for younger people in general but sure becomes important as one ages.
I agree with Spencerin that it would be crazy costly and the government is quite capable of screwing it up. The wealthy can either afford good coverage or special treatment but it is the poor that suffer as usual. I believe they would continue to do so in the slim chance that universal healthcare were accepted in the US. There is always someone to abuse the system and they will get the negative press.
Healthcare is something that is promised in almost every election in the US but rarely delivered. It is easy for outsiders to criticize a so-called wealthy country like the US for not having socialized medicine, but another thing to deliver it effectively and efficiently.
Canada's system is always being challenged and there is a new issue or procedure that becomes news and has supporters for new coverage every day. I am sure there is a lot of waste in this system, but on the whole, seems to work fairly well. Our tax rates bear witness to the costs of this system and there would have to be sweeping changes in the US to accommodate this and many people would not be happy.
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ICC
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# Posted: 13 Feb 2020 10:32am
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Quoting: DartNorth As a non American, it baffles me the fight to not get socialized health care there. Private companies are getting rich, and people are going bankrupt.
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spencerin
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# Posted: 13 Feb 2020 12:43pm
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Dart North, like I said, I'm not against financial risk-pooling for health expenses, but choosing to do it under a privatized system is fundamentally different from being mandated and controlled by a socialized system. Believe me, I'm sympathetic to the plight of others. But, I believe the private market can solve our problems better than any socialized system ever could, and I believe our government's job is to create the environment to allow it to happen.
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DartNorth
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# Posted: 13 Feb 2020 05:32pm
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spencerin. Private companies are always going to be about profit. As such, ideally for them, you pay them, and they never provide service. That is why we hear about all the denied claims.
A 1 pay system is way more efficient, even factoring in government inefficiencies. There is actually a lot more choice for the consumer with a 1 pay system. You get to chose which doctor you see. Which hospital you go to.
I think I remember reading that the administration of billing in US healthcare was $500 billion . That's $1500 per person in the US. That could go to insurance premiums, deductibles etc if the billing was simplified.
A 1 payer system can drive other costs down as well. If one organization is buying drugs, equipment, etc, they are obviously going to get a better rate.
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 13 Feb 2020 06:11pm - Edited by: ICC
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Quoting: DartNorth spencerin. Private companies are always going to be about profit. As such, ideally for them, you pay them, and they never provide service. That is why we hear about all the denied claims.
There is so much that is wrong with the present system in the US!
1. Personal experience---- I required mandible surgery several years ago. This was elective surgery; I could have done without, but surgery would correct damage from a previous injury. I had insurance from a large corporation I was working for at the time. Someone forgot to request permission to use some special procedure that might have been used, maybe not--- the surgeon would not know until the flesh was cut open. It was needed and done. A few months later I got a bill for something like $2200. After some calls the insurance company did state that they would have covered it in full, but it had not been asked for beforehand, so they would not. Two years later the amount was forgotten or foregiven or whatever, not out of the goodness of the insurance company, but because the surgeon sold his practise and the amount was somehow "lost".
2. Family friend experience. She had a heart attack. She had insurance through work, a big bank. She was incoherent or unconcious; I forget which. There are two main hospitals in the area where she lived. About a quarter mile apart. The EMT's rushed her to the nearest one. As it turns out that hospital did not have a payment agreement with the insurer she had. The other hospital did. She was dieing or almost dead, so the medical people did what was right. They saved her life.
When the insurance details were sorted out and she was stable, she was moved to the other hospital. Her insurance company refused to pay many things. In the end, again after hours of her time, hours of insurance company customer service time spread over about a year she was left still owing $40K out of her own pocket.
There is something very wrong with both of those examples don't you think?
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ICC
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# Posted: 13 Feb 2020 06:17pm
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Quoting: DartNorth I think I remember reading that the administration of billing in US healthcare was $500 billion . That's $1500 per person in the US. That could go to insurance premiums, deductibles etc if the billing was simplified.
I forget the exact dollars but yes, the administration costs in the US are a larger percentage of the overall spending than what is seen in Canada. Why? Profits to the private insurers.
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ICC
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# Posted: 13 Feb 2020 06:37pm - Edited by: ICC
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And then, from a different perspective, nobody ever talks about. In the US many people obtain their health insurance through their employer. Whether or not an employer offers insurance can be an influence on whether or not someone decides to work there.
My brother runs a construction company. He has 20 or so employees on a full time basis. He needs to offer health insurance to his employees as "bait". He uses the services of an outside firm to research and deal with the costs. All he wants to do is build stuff. Why does he need to either be a healthcare insurance specialist or pay for that service? Each year there needs to be a review of what he offers the employees and spend time and money to see if there is a better, or maybe cheaper plan available. Every year. That costs money that gets added to the administration column.
Then anyone who is not covered by an employer insurance plan has to do the same shopping thing every year as well on their own.
The existing system is nuts. I say that as one who has lived and worked in Canada (2 years) and the UK (3 years) as well as the US for many decades. I have had contact with the healthcare systems in all three countries. The US system is not my favorite.
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 13 Feb 2020 10:09pm
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Since this topic came up a few medical issues have come up.
1) My BIL whom was not eligible for seed implants for his prostate cancer (with one out of 12 biopsy's testing positive, same as my US husband that got the 35K implants and is cancer free) and suffered through chemotherapy has a rising PSA level. No other testing done. Was told to wait four months for another PSA test to determine if the cancer is back.
2) Our contractor was doing some work at our cabin and had to leave because his lungs were burning. He went directly to hospital. Testing was done. Two clogged arteries in his heart. Transported to a larger hospital and surgery was done the following morning.
He visited us a few weeks later and we joked about the huge medical bill he was going to find in his mail box. Not. Because he is Canadian.
3) Hubby had a infection. The prescription was expensive. He said I just won’t take it because it’s to expensive. This happens so much here in the states. Elderly people going without medication because they cannot afford it. Many of them don’t use the Internet. They don’t know a way around the system. The specialist pharmacy was charging $95 for one prescription. I went on my app GoodRx and found the same medication for $17 at a pharmacy one mile from our home. How can this be legal.
4) My insurance company denied payment of the prescription I need to control acid reflex due to a hiatal hernia because it can be purchased OTC. It’s $35 for a one month supply. I found it on the same above app for $5.35 for a 90 day supply.
How did I learn about this app? A kind agent at my insurance company when I called to inquire about the denial of that drug coverage in my plan told me. She said she also uses the app.
Every single time I receive a medical bill for myself I’m on the phone for sometimes hours because a procedure that was supposed to be covered wasn’t. Than the bill is resubmitted with the correct code and I have to wait close to two months for a lower bill or a denial. My husband thank goodness. Most of his bills are covered or very low because he’s over 65 and on Medicare.
I retired early because I did not want to regret spending time apart. Not being able to spend a few months at the cabin because I had to work. Or go to FL every few years to escape winter.
Being younger in the USA and retiring young (I was in the workforce 35 years, not long enough so says the government) is a huge burden due to the cost of my healthcare. Other than the hernia, I have no other medical problems. Pretty awful that I am wishing age on myself so I can qualify for Medicare and be released from the burden of high medical care.
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silverwaterlady
Member
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# Posted: 13 Feb 2020 10:14pm
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ICC what your brother goes through to find medical coverage for the following year is the exact thing I must do every November for myself.
It’s a nightmare.
Yes, I’m darn well going to see my regular PCP. He’s been our family doctor for 28 years and saved my Husbands life three times.
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spencerin
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# Posted: 14 Feb 2020 09:03pm
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All those scenarios are awful, and I've been through a couple I'm not happy about myself. That said, I never said, nevermind implied, that the US's current system was better in every way, so put away those pitchforks and torches people! Just be open to the fact that there could solutions to the problem other than socializing it.
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