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beachman
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# Posted: 25 Sep 2014 04:57pm
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Just curious if anyone cuts small trees in the Spring (before the full moon in July) and strips off the bark to use in landscaping around the cottage? Would be interested in methods or other uses.
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skootamattaschmidty
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# Posted: 25 Sep 2014 05:01pm - Edited by: skootamattaschmidty
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I have peeled many logs for projects, from furniture to indoor and out door railings to the logs for a log sauna/bunkie I am making. I use a draw knife which works great! I have a very old one and one I recently purchased at Lee Valley for about $50.
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beachman
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# Posted: 25 Sep 2014 07:08pm
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Very cool! I have used an axe and it can be messy. The draw knife sounds better. My grandfather made some great outdoor chairs using these logs. We have also used them for small piers, stair treads, etc...
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 25 Sep 2014 08:05pm
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I use a draw knife too, but an alternative is a barking spud, another old school tool which you use to pry the bark off. Only works well when the bark is fairly loose, that is, the cambium is soft enough to pry. This is usually in spring as the new growth gets under way. It doesn't work so well in December in 10 degree weather, when the log is frozen solid, so I learned a while back. But a sharp spokeshave cuts frozen bark almost like butter. A spokeshave must be very sharp or its a lot harder to use. I bought a small strap sander set up for sharpening just for the purpose.
A spud is much faster when it can be used, the bark falls off in large chunks, whereas a shave takes longer and is more effort.
Some people don't find this kind of work very appealing but I was appealing logs for several weeks and enjoyed it just fine.
Sorry.
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Mainiac
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# Posted: 25 Sep 2014 09:53pm
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Quoting: bldginsp A spud is much faster
YES.They used to peel Hemlock logs with a barking spud for pulp.
I found a spud the other day in the ground.One end is flat like a chisel.
They sold the H bark to leather tanners
I saw a couple of draw shaves at our weekly junk auction just the other day,
Peeling in the spring is easier,I think.
RUSTIC logs are not my style. OLd houses had logs flattened on the top for floor joists .Usually under the first floor.IF you leave on the bark,bugs will be there.Eating away.
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VTweekender
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# Posted: 26 Sep 2014 05:55am
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I use small logs for many projects and also use a draw knife. I built a log well with roof, just decorative......log post and rail fence....porch posts and rails......small bridge over drainage ditch......and firewood shed.
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Malamute
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# Posted: 26 Sep 2014 11:52am - Edited by: Malamute
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I use a draw knife mostly. Having used both old and newer ones, I find the older ones much better tools overall. The bevel is sharper and they take a much keener edge.
I've seen comments about which way to use them, and it takes a pro to sharpen them blah, blah etc....if they are used bevel side down, they are vastly easier to keep sharp, and with only a round axe stone. I was using mine backwards, and asked a guy that had build dozens of cabins how he sharpened his knives. The first thing he said was show him how I used it. He said to only use it bevel side down and it will change the game. It did. I've loaned out my drawknives before, with strict instructions on how to use them, and they come back having been used upside down. I can tell instantly by the wear on the blade. I wont loan out a drawknife any more. Using them bevel side down its a 5 minute job to keep it shaving sharp(yes, I shave the hair on my arm when done). Using the flat side down is a long hard process to try to clean up the blade to take a fair edge again. Theres no need to use a sander when the tool was used properly. With the stone perfectly flat on the bevel, then on the back to clean up the burr is all it takes once the edge is right and not abused. Spit on the stone and its good to go. The spit also shows the stone pattern on the blade when stoning it to keep it flat.
Most draw knives, especially old ones, can benefit from the tender ministrations of a torch to bend the handles outwards a bit, more like at 45 deg angle instead of pointing nearly straight back. Welding the handles in position on the folders achieves the same end. This keeps you from beating your knuckles on the log, allows them to be used on larger logs, and lets you use a slightly sideways angle and use a slicing sideways motion while cutting. The slicing motion helps some when doing knots also.
Using your body to draw the knife is less fatiguing than the common hacking with the arms motion most seem to use. Doing long logs, if I get them to a level just below me when standing over them (straddling the log), I can lean forward, then back to sitting and get 2-3 foot long peels easily, and with less overall effort.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 26 Sep 2014 03:46pm
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Drawknife is probably my most used tool for debarking. I keep a cheap one at the outfeed of the sawmill to remove any bark that doesn't get edged off... if I leave even that small amount the bugs move in fast.
I've also used a slick, which is basically a very large chisel. A shovel works as well when the bark slips in the spring. As bldginsp said that loosening of the bark is from the cambium, the cells dividing in the spring. Just messing around I've gotten an entire poplar log debarked in one sheet in the springtime.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 26 Sep 2014 04:13pm
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Sounds like a very appealing pastime, DonP.
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SubArcticGuy
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# Posted: 27 Sep 2014 09:47am
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Sounds like I have been using my drawknife upside down....I am flying to the cabin in a couple of hours for a week of moose hunting and construction...I will have to try the other way. I have one more log to peel for an upright post on the deck.
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leonk
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# Posted: 27 Sep 2014 10:18am
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malamute, how big (long and wide) are your knives?
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Malamute
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# Posted: 27 Sep 2014 11:34am
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My old knives are 8" blades. With the handles turned out some, they can peel 12-14" butt logs. I have a couple newer knives, but after using the older ones, they hardly ever get used. The blades are thicker, the bevels more blunt, and they have no curve to the blade. I ground one down thinner and changed the bevel, but it still isn't the equal of the older knives. The old ones cost less also, I think I paid $40 for each of my older knives. (Can you tell I like old draw knives more then new ones?)
I took pics, it will be this evening before I can post them.
1/2" or 3/4" pvc pipe, cut on one side lengthwise with a table saw, makes an excellent blade guard for drawknives. I've used regular white pvc, tan cpvc and gray electrical pvc conduit, just whatever was handy at the moment. Thicker blades may need a wider slot, but one pass on the table saw works great on mine.
I use the round two sided axe stones from either Baily's or Forestry Suppliers to keep them shaving sharp.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 27 Sep 2014 12:19pm
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I peeled 60 some poles with a spokeshave with the bevel up, not down, and did not experience any rapid loss of sharpness. Have to say I don't understand how having the bevel down will affect sharpness, but I don't know. Keeping the bevel up, flat side down, certainly gives better control of the knife to keep it flat to the plane of the pole.
Malamute's advice about using your body, not your arms, is very important. Rocking your body back and forth, pulling the knife as you go, makes longer and smoother shavings and leaves a more consistent, attractive surface. It's also the fastest way to go because you remove more with each stroke.
Getting the log up in the air where it is most comfortable for you to work at it is key also. I built a funky sawhorse type thing out of crisscrossed 2x4s which worked. The key is to cross brace it so it is as rigid as possible, and tie the log to it so it doesn't move as you shave.
Here's the only shots I have of the horse, being used for joinery:
Rafter_jigs_6.jpg
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Rafter_jigs_2.jpg
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leonk
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# Posted: 27 Sep 2014 01:57pm
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pvc pipe for blade guard I will try, I have couple knives with no guards 
bldginsp, what's that saw in the second pic..?
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 27 Sep 2014 02:12pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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That's a Prazi beam saw. Prazi makes a bunch of jigs and add-ons for tools. This beam saw, as you can see, is just a chain saw that bolts straight onto a Skilsaw. Gives you a 12 or 13 inch depth of cut. A bit funky, inaccurate and unwieldy, and extremely dangerous if not used carefully, but not too expensive and basically effective. Their website:
http://www.praziusa.com/
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leonk
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# Posted: 27 Sep 2014 06:41pm
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interesting, thanks
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Malamute
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# Posted: 27 Sep 2014 10:10pm - Edited by: Malamute
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The way the blade is used isn't a matter of how fast they dull, its a matter of how easy they are to sharpen well. Properly done, the flat side should be completely flat, and the bevel side should be completely flat and intersect the flat side for the cutting edge, (like a chisel) not have another bevel like a knife, added into the mix. I've seen some brand new draw knives that had an additional bevel ground into the bevel side. It would take a couple hours of hand work to get one of them right.
When the blades are used flat side down, it takes much more work to get the flat worked down completely flat again, and then get a really good cutting edge on it. Its terrifically frustrating after learning how easy they are to sharpen when used bevel side down, then somebody uses your knife incorrectly and makes an hour or more of hard work for you. It should take 5 minutes to tune up a blade when used bevel side down, and get a shaving sharp edge. I can easily see the wear on the flat side if they are used upside down.
Knife pics:
Top two are later commercial knives. Bottom two are older knives. They take a much sharper edge and are less work to use. After using the older knives, the top knives seemed like poor imitations. Third knife down has about the right handle angle for working larger logs and not skinning your knuckles in the process. I heated the shanks up with an oxy-acetelyn torch and bent them to that angle. They were much too tight before.
Stone for sharpening drawknives and other tools,
http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/product_pages/Products.asp?mi=61421
Nice beam saw!
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leonk
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# Posted: 27 Sep 2014 10:36pm
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I have a knive like your 3-d one. I haven't really used it, but when I saw it, I knew the steel is good. I paid 20, I think
I have a puck like this
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 28 Sep 2014 12:02am
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Malamute- I have noticed that I am getting a fair sized bevel on the flat side of my shave from wear. I haven't removed it, this doesn't yet seem to affect control of the tool in use, and with a strap sander sharpening is always easy. Everyone has their own preferred methods, I suppose.
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Malamute
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# Posted: 28 Sep 2014 12:15am
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Get a really wicked sharp edge on it and try it bevel down for a bit, see if it gives good control, and works alright.
I wasn't a believer, but after that guy told me that and I tried it, it just made sense, and was much simpler to keep really truly sharp. Really truly sharp makes the work easier. I find deep pitch pockets in the logs I work sometimes. With a really sharp knife, it isn't that difficult to take quite a lot of wood off (1/2" or more) to clean up the pitch pocket and make it look good. Sharp tools are a joy to use.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 28 Sep 2014 08:46am - Edited by: Don_P
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A drawknife is meant to be used bevel down, but a tool is a means to an end, if it gets the job done then whatever you are doing works for you. On most edge tools I hollow grind the bevel on a wheel then hand sharpen with a stone riding it on the two outside edges of that hollow ground arc. This forms 2 "lands", one at the edge, one at the heel. As the tool wears and is hand sharpened those lands will become wider until they meet and the bevel becomes flat. At that point I regrind the edge to a hollow grind and start over. Whenever you use a powered grinder on fine tool steel, work with a light touch and keep it cool, you can ruin a tool in very short order if you burn the steel.
A hollow grind is very sharp but is relatively weak. It requires the least power to cut, but what I use it for is that it does give 2 points to rest the stone on, it registers the angle quickly and easily. This is an aid in keeping the hand sharpening angle consistently straight. When trying to sharpen a bevel flat by hand it is easy to rock the stone ending up with a convex bevel. A convex bevel eats up alot of horsepower and with hand tools you are the horse.
I use a diamond stone just because they stay flat and are very low maintenance. With any chisel type tool you do need to flatten the back in the process, ideally the back of chisels, slicks, planes and drawknives should be dead flat and mirror finished. This perfectly smooth plane is then easy to meet along the edge. Any divots or grooves on the back make it impossible to sharpen to a consistent sharp edge. In a strong light turn the edge up and sight down it, playing the edge in the light. If the edge is sharp the light is split by the edge, nothing along the edge relfects light back at you. If there are any white spots or areas along the edge reflecting light back at you there is not an edge in those places. This is also how to tell if an edge tool needs sharpening, there is usually a white line along the edge of a dull edge. There are white reflected nicks along the edge of a damaged edge, one that has struck hard objects. I have one cheap modern knife like the top one, its' edge will actually roll when it strikes a hard knot, easy to sharpen but it is junk steel. We do have superior steels to the old days now, but they don't end up in cheap tools. Leaf springs do make good drawknives and edge tools.
I hold the drawknife with one handle buried in the base of my bicep the other handle in my hand, bevel up, edge out. Then I can run the stone up and down or in and out easily and consistently. Sort of like an old time fiddler. Finally when I'm done sharpening I clean up the edge on a muslin wheel charged with emory. This removes any burr and smooths the scratches left by the stone.
One way to think about the vast majority of edge tools is that they are chisels, mounted different ways, but the action and methods of maintenance are similar. A skill saw blade is nothing more than a series of chisels mounted on a wheel.
I've got the Prazi mounted on an old Milwaukee worm drive. Usually I'll start with the 16" skillsaw which can cut 6" deep, then if It needs more I'll get the Prazi which will go about 12", finally if it won't do the job I'll whip out my big 26"... handsaw 
The cheapest and most readily available saw will do the most work.
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Malamute
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# Posted: 28 Sep 2014 04:39pm - Edited by: Malamute
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Excellent post. Thank you.
In my sharpening, I spit copiously on the stone, then watch the pattern of spit/stone/steel residue as I stroke the steel. It's an important part of my sharpening routine. The spot the stone ran on shows well, and I can keep the edges pretty flat by hand. You can also see the stone pattern on the bare steel and see if its been taken back to flat after working on it. The reason you hollow grind them makes sense as you described it. I've been satisfied with the hillbilly method I described. I can generally shave the hair on my arm after 5 minutes of tuneup. It's probably not quite as consistent as the way you mentioned, but its worked pretty well.
Getting a truly sharp edge was the problem I was running into when using the tools flat down. It took progressively more work to get progressively less satisfactory edges. It was a game changer for me in keeping the blades really truly sharp to use them bevel down.
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