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bldginsp
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# Posted: 18 Nov 2013 02:40pm
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I listen to the scientists when they are in general agreement. 98% of all publishing climatologists agree that global warming is real, human caused, and will have severe effects if not reversed.
You can always come up with seemingly persuasive arguments for or against using certain specific instances, but it is the overall trend that matters. The scientists agree about the trend, and what the effects will be.
Bill McKibben tells us that what the scientists are now saying is that there is an upper limit to the amount of carbon we can put in the atmosphere before we experience very severe effects, and we are on track to do that by 2030 or so.
I hate to say it, but I'm sure we are going to do it. The fossil fuels are there and we are going to burn them. The oil giants with their public relations campaigns have successfully cast doubt on whether global warming exists, and that's all they have to do, is cast doubt, to prevent people or governments from limiting fossil fuel burning.
Globally we now use almost all arable land for food production, and we are losing top soil steadily due to mismanagement. We can feed 7 billion people so long as we can produce on this land. What happens when drought and flood cut world food production by 10, 30, 40%? It's not a pretty picture, but unfortunately, I think that's exactly what's going to happen.
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Truecabin
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# Posted: 18 Nov 2013 02:58pm
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global warming is a tough one who really could know
coal or oil left under the ground cant be sold for profit
and only some large corporations can get money out of the earth
money spent to discredit global warming is spent because they are not in the business to leave money underground
theres so much money underground that it pollutes our democracy and pollutes science and pollutes every fact that anybody thinks they know
its the same money that doesnt want you to get your own energy from solar it wants everyone to buy energy from them its smart business
they pay a lot why do their job by convincing other people if your not being paid to do that
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 18 Nov 2013 10:21pm - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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That evil oil provides us with many things, ie heat for the winter, AC for the summer, transportation for commerce, energy to run equipment, ie rail, heavy equipment, military etc. Its involved in the exploration, mining, refining of raw materials, mfg into a product, then used again to get it to distribution areas, so you can become the end user of said goods.
Oil is providing a very low cost energy, energy that we must have right now. There is nothing out there that can replace the demand we have. We can look elsewhere, but in the meantime, we have a nice abundant supply at a low cost.
When you get politicians to attack the oil industry, you are just going to drive up the cost of the energy to you, reducing your households disposable income and then you can feel good because you lobbied to have the oil company to impose a higher cost on to you, so in the end, you can say "I really fixed that mean old oil company, didn't I"
It appears the US since 2012 is not the worlds largest supplier of oil, this is from the Bakken in North Dakota. There is another large oil find in Colorado and Texas is flush in natural gas. This can move us towards energy independence instead of sending out dollars to countries that would just see us infidels all dead anyway. Good paying jobs, low unemployment (North Dakota, right around 3%) state is flush is tax revenue (2 billion dollar surplus) and anyone who wants a job, can have one.
Man made global warming is a hoax, scam, tax scheme. They call CO2 a pollutant now???? The carbon tax would be another way to further control your life while taxing the fecal matter out of you, all while making you feel good about it.
Dont buy into is. Its a normal part of the earths cycle. We are on the cooling swing now.
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Borrego
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# Posted: 18 Nov 2013 11:44pm
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Most scientists today are either paid off or idealistically compromised IMHO
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Truecabin
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2013 01:10am - Edited by: Truecabin
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dont accept money controlling our political system it will only get worse and its not for your benefit its for taking more of your money
they control the prices as it is the only way price will drop is if the demand drops for example if electric cars work out better and pepole buy less oil then they will drop the price of oil
this money corrupts scientists too your right about that
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EastTN
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2013 05:42am
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I believe Global Warming is a massive fraud perpetrated by Progressivs to change society and diminish freedom.
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cabinbiscuits
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2013 02:53pm
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I wonder how the earth ever survived from all of the Co2 that would have been emitted from millions of acres of forest fires that occurred before man started trying to control them and put them out.
It sure is a good thing that they invented the international carbon credit exchange so that people from countries like the US can pay a tax or buy credits for their carbon emissions too.
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Rossman
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2013 06:20pm
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Quoting: Borrego Most scientists today are either paid off or idealistically compromised IMHO
I think the real problem is that there is an overall defunding of general independant public science and at the same time, an increase in science funding by corporations in specific applied disciplines that only serve their profit agenda.
Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech Oil is providing a very low cost energy, energy that we must have right now. There is nothing out there that can replace the demand we have. We can look elsewhere, but in the meantime, we have a nice abundant supply at a low cost.
Nuclear is arguably cleaner esp. with new reactor designs. Also there is no doubt that we are past peak oil so we are going to have to come up with a plan for a smooth transition, why not get behind that early? It's just smarter to be ahead of the game with something as crucial as energy supplies.
Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech Dont buy into is. Its a normal part of the earths cycle. We are on the cooling swing now.
While there may be a overall warming & cooling cycle that the earth enjoys, that doesn't mean that humans can't also have an impact on it. We are doing alarming things to the planet at a far quicker rate than the earth can handle it. I mean just out in Alberta the oil sands are going to effectively destroy an area the size of Florida, thats just one easy example off the top of my head. If you follow the news, we are spilling oil left right and centre and generally mucking stuff up on a vast scale.
Also, as bldginsp says, at this point the published and accredited climate scientists are pretty well all in agreement on this stuff.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2013 08:16pm
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I believe it borders on arrogance to think the activities of humans have zero effect on the earth and its climate. I also believe the earths climate has always been in flux in one direction or another. We people could be enough of an influence to cause climate tipping one way or another. To think climate could not be influenced by mans activities is to be playing at being an ostrich.
I don't have an answer, but I do believe anything is possible.
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Borrego
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2013 08:49pm
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Quoting: Rossman Also, as bldginsp says, at this point the published and accredited climate scientists are pretty well all in agreement on this stuff.
I don't believe this adds any credence to that side of the argument, they're all drinkin the same koolaid, IMO- it'd be like a bunch of generals agreeing that it's time to go to war 
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PatrickH
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2013 09:07pm
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One thing mankind has excelled at is our ability to destroy everything, History has shown me that the more "evolved" LOL! that we have become the bigger our aspirations for destruction have grown. The earth is defenitely in our sights may it come from air,water, or people pollution it is happening.When you need to pump anhydrous ammonia into the ground to grow corn that cant be good.They are on the way to depleting the high plains aquifer.We are starting our 3rd installment of automotive refridgerants r-12 bad,r134a bad,r-1234yf probably bad I dont believe trees can filter the massive amounts of refridgerants that we dump into the atmosphere. There is a documentary called Chasing Ice they still photo major glaciers over a period of years Its mostly just photos and how they did it whatever the reason the ice is melting no politics no propaganda just melting glaciers whatever you believe the planet is changing for the better or worse is what some of us may find out, Im sure our children will!
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Rossman
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2013 11:29pm
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Quoting: Borrego I don't believe this adds any credence to that side of the argument, they're all drinkin the same koolaid, IMO- it'd be like a bunch of generals agreeing that it's time to go to war
Given the choice between believing credible, published scientists who have spent years studying the issue, and believing the other side (which incidentally is largely funded by big oil *wink* or internet conspiracy theorists who are unable to substantiate their claims), I know where I'm hitching my horse.
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RidgeRunner
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# Posted: 20 Nov 2013 12:11am
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Oh, yeah, the my bias is better than your bias argument.
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 20 Nov 2013 02:21am - Edited by: silverwaterlady
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As I said before only time will tell. All the scientists and media that are reporting on global warming or cooling(take your pick on whatever you believe) are based on what they believe MAY happen in the future.
So they are trying to predict the future. History has proven prediction to be unreliable.
What we can and should do is look at history and not make the same mistakes. As an example: Our air is much cleaner than it was at the height of the industrial revolution. We are healthier because we found ways to make our air cleaner. Most due to government regulations that many dislike. But so be it. When I travel to CA at least I don't see a fine line of yellow smog at my breathing level like I did in 1993.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 20 Nov 2013 07:44am
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The problem, silverwaterlady, is that what the scientists are telling us is that we don't have time to wait and see. By the time we see it, it will be too late to avoid mass starvation.
But I agree with you if only because I think we will wait and see, whether we like it or not. We are not going to stop putting carbon in the atmosphere, and we will see the effects. Or, our grandkids will.
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creeky
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# Posted: 20 Nov 2013 09:28am
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I'm reminded of the 70s when northern north america had a SO2 problem from smoke stacks. When all our lakes became acidified and the fish in them died there was a huge debate whether it was from industry... could we afford to fix the problem ... etc
back then the solution to pollution was dilution. but after taller smokestacks didn't work the companies were legislated to spend 100s of millions on smokestack scrubbers. Our lakes returned to normal and life continues. aw. shareholders had smaller gains for a few years.
now we have a CO2 problem. and again the aquatic world acts as our canary. anyone who has swum over a coral reef knows that something is happening in the ocean.
... sooner or later you have to clean up your garbage. so it's time to clean up our CO2. plant a tree. ride a bike. lobby for change. vote for the green party.
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Truecabin
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# Posted: 20 Nov 2013 10:37am
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our cities were so polluted like china is now
in the 70s they forced us to use catalytic converters and no lead in the gas
i remember the sky was falling it was a war against hotrods and our own government must hate american people
but it now the air is clean and you can buy a new camaro that says 426 on it and that is 426horses not cubic inches
now pollutiing is patriotic and if you care what america to leave the grandkids means you hate america
good luck with that one
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RidgeRunner
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# Posted: 20 Nov 2013 12:00pm
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People will believe what they want to believe.
All think that their way is the best way.
All are right and all are wrong.
Things are never as bad as they seem...things are never as good as they seem.
I wish we could get extreme hypocrite and control-freak Al "Do-As-I-Say-Not-As-I-Do" Gore to stop jetting around in chartered aircraft, riding around in gas-guzzling SUVs and using 200,000 KWH of electric per year.
That'd be a good start, huh? 
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Truecabin
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# Posted: 20 Nov 2013 03:40pm
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you are saying we will never get anywhere except downhill i think you are right its going down
if you want to give china all our money the govt should not be in your way
and if you want to pollute the usa like china the govt should stay out of it
govt is no help at all right? be careful what you ask for you might get it trouble is nobody really knows what they might get i garantee everyone will be sorry. everyone even the rich and the middle class
folks who think guns will help you they are using you with the gun issue
your side will win i think for a little while then they will take your guns with those robot dogs and guns wont help you
by then its too late if you want to keep guns free you better think about your democracy now or at least for your kids
if you teach your kids that democracy is no good they will make democracy no good and thats what people are doing now so watch out
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RidgeRunner
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# Posted: 20 Nov 2013 04:19pm
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If you're talking to me....you obviously have NO idea how I live.
Anyway.....
Things are supposedly getting bad fast yet just two hurricanes formed in the Atlantic Ocean this year, the fewest since 1982, according to data from the National Hurricane Center. And for the first time since 1994, there have been no "major" hurricanes (Category 3 or above) anywhere in the Atlantic Ocean.
What's up with that???
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Salty Craig
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# Posted: 20 Nov 2013 06:49pm
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Let it rest please. The two sides will never agree. So how's everyone's dog doing?
Salty Craig
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PA_Bound
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# Posted: 20 Nov 2013 07:19pm - Edited by: PA_Bound
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As I said in this thread way-back on January 29th...
Quoting: PA_Bound Right up there with religion, politics and guns
My rescue collie is doing just fine, thanks for asking!
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 20 Nov 2013 07:23pm
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My cat died last year. Sniff sniff.
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Rossman
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# Posted: 20 Nov 2013 07:51pm - Edited by: Rossman
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My rabbit rides along to help pollute the atmosphere!
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Martian
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# Posted: 20 Nov 2013 07:51pm - Edited by: Martian
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My two dogs are doing quite well...thanks for asking.
When I dropped out of the corporate world, I simplified. The effect of simplification was a marked reduction in consumption of natural resources. It also has saved me a great deal of money over the last 30 years!
Capitalist believe that maximizing efficiency builds capital. Simplification allows the individual to maximize their efficiency. If you need less money to live, every dollar you earn, over what it cost you to live, is profit. When you live with less, you are automatically using less resources. Therefore, individual capitalism is good for the environment.
Corporate capitalism is consumer driven and profit motivated. For it to succeed, we must consume. Consuming is not in our long term interest if we wish to build our individual wealth. So, in effect, a movement towards simplification, which many here espouse to, is being an environmentalist and a capitalist.
If global warming is being caused by mankind's activities, simplification will solve the problem. But, even if global warming is a hoax, simplification will increase individual wealth. That, to me, is a pretty good reason to simplify. Its a win/win.
Tom
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Salty Craig
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# Posted: 20 Nov 2013 08:35pm
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Martian
Amen brother. Thanks for the words of wisdom. I believe folks with strong opinions either way can agree. I'm a greedy capitalist, dreaming of the day that I can lounge around my cabin and boat 7 days a week instead of just weekends. I have enough equity to never work another day in my life, but the status quo of the area that I grew up in says that my kids go to private schools, my house is over 4000 square ft., and when I retire then I can set on my butt. PS I,m a 33 year old, self motivated, high school drop out, Project Manager, making enough per week to live on per year at my cabin.
Salty Craig
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Martian
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# Posted: 20 Nov 2013 09:07pm
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Salty, as a project manager, I'm sure you discard those ideas that keep us locked into the "that's the way we've always done it" thinking. Explore the small changes you can make to maximize all that income. Set your goal on your hearts desire, and go for it. If your hearts desire is to sit on your porch and think, then make that your goal. Efficiency dictates that we take the shortest path to our goal.
I believe, when we focus our energy on our goal, all obstacles can be overcome.
Tom
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 20 Nov 2013 09:11pm - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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Quoting: RidgeRunner What's up with that???
Craig, havent you heard, the "heat is hiding in the ocean". No kidding, this is exactly what they just recently said a month or two back when the temp numbers weren't there. They said the head was hiding in the ocean. 
I have some hiding in my cabin woodstove and my home furnace. Oven, toaster....
I like it when we get little snowfall, "its form global warming" and when we get too much, its "from global warming"
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 20 Nov 2013 09:17pm - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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Quoting: Martian Corporate capitalism is consumer driven and profit motivated. For it to succeed, we must consume.
Keep in mind, the clean environments come from capitalist countrys. Compare it to communist, socialist types.
I worked with a man from USSR (Russia for the youngins) and he served in the military under Stalin. He was an older gent, but very nice and a sharp tech (Alexander)
He told me how his govt told him how bad it was over here (US), all the pollution, how evil capitalism was. But he can no longer fish the river he grew up fishing in the Ukraine, all poisoned, and comes over here and people are catching steelhead right in the stream that runs through town surrounded by industry.,
Quoting: Martian If global warming is being caused by mankind's activities, simplification will solve the problem. But, even if global warming is a hoax, simplification will increase individual wealth. That, to me, is a pretty good reason to simplify. Its a win/win.
Well put, I agree. And when I retire and move to my cabin, I want to live simple and low cost. Lets all agree, cabin living is good for the environment.
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Salty Craig
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# Posted: 20 Nov 2013 09:37pm
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Martian
Your advise is deep, well spoken, and appreciated. My family roots are very deep where I live, so giving up the "American" lifestyle for a relaxed cabin life also requires me to move 3.5 hours away. Its do-able and I have considered doing it many times, but I always tell myself:"stick it out till the kids are grown." The area that I love is a mixture of wealth and poverty. The wealth is all along the water and most things inland are poor. I struggle with how I can leave the solid community that I live in and move to a new area where my kids would need to make new school and Church friends. I'm no longer in need of much and could easily content myself with the quiet life, but I would not be giving my children much opportunity. In a nutshell, the East coast salt water is a retirement village.
Salty Craig
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