Prayers for those families in Connecticut

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TomChum Member	# Posted: 23 Dec 2012 12:25pm Reply Quoting: cabinbasics But I also have to reflect on the irony of the 3,500+ "choices" ending in healthcare facilities daily around this country - no news reporters, no police, no ambulances for them. Yes "choices" are heartbreaking for all sides. No good answers, from one solution comes another problem. Equally heartbreaking is children growing up unwanted by their parents. Or worse, growing up unwanted by their parents PLUS lethal weapons available.

EvoQ Member	# Posted: 23 Dec 2012 02:20pm - Edited by: EvoQ Reply Who in their right mind can't help but admit of all the Hate and Offensive Onslaught of Violence that we see constantly in our society in the USA. I just had to get this out of my system; so much inaccurate information on all Media outlets. Sorry for the rant. But...... You can't turn on the Cable TV without all sorts of Violence all over every single program. For that Reason I canceled my Cable TV a long time ago, and now only choose to watch video of history, educational, or the occasional movie of my choice. I also Can't bring myself to watch any News programs either. All you get on Any News network are a barrage of Bad/Sensationalized events. Bad stuff happens, why do I want to constantly watch it 24/7 ? I have for the past 4 years solely relied on the Internet and my Computers to access the outside world. I don't need any Cable Service, most of my friends are at first hesitant about not having Cable TV but then they come over and see that I lack for nothing in the way of Video info or entertainment. This last tragic event has been sensationalized to the point where 90% of the public are only thinking Emotionally and Not rationally. Placing Blame on inanimate objects rather than the person(s) responsible. Lastly; days after this school shooting happened I came out for having Policemen stationed at Every School across America. To me that would be the perfect solution. Not only would that go along way to stop Gun Crimes but also other crimes as well. Not just posting of cops but a total make-over of School security, where-as no one can enter that school for any reason. Have a set of double doors to actually get inside to the school where the children are located. You first enter a separate room if you want to come visit your kids, but You are Never allowed inside to where the students are located. They bring the kid to see you instead. Also a Panic Button at EVERY School, all any teacher or Staff would have to do to alert the local Police is to hit that Panic Button. Why Can't we do these things ? In hind-sight there are many many things that could have helped to avoid this tragic event. The costs of placing policemen at every school is minimal to the cost of our Nation's sanity and to the fears of the parents. A total redesign of school safety should take place, but that won't happen. All that will happen will be that the Politicians will hold several meetings spend a about $20 Million dollars to suggest that we Ban So-Called Assault Weapons. When in fact the .223 round used in the Bushmaster Gun is hardly ever used in murders. The list will stun you. #1- 9mm HandGun #2- 22 Calber Handgun #3- knives #4- Fists #15- .223 Caliber Round/Bullet in the so-called Assault Weapon used in less than002% of all murders in the USA. Facts per the FBI's website. And as far as the so-called Gun Show Loophole, that is a total Falsehood. Every seller has to run background checks, but if Joe is walking around the Gun show and wants to buy John's Gun then he can without background checks, just like if you buy your neighbors deer hunting rifle. That my friends is the so-called Loophole the Media is intent on spreading. We live in an age of Emotion First Reason Second. We are constantly lambasted with Advertisements from$30million/year Celebrities that are so out of touch with the average American citizen. Ladies are shown Advertisements from celebrities that look like they are Heroin addicts because they are that small and undernourished. In fact ona side note Most of these Super Models Love to eat Fried Pork Skins, no Carbs and Very High Protein. So we are supposed to just implicitly trust Politicians even though they all Lie at every turn. We should go out and buy all these advertised products from our favorite Sports Teams. To What end ? For the Benefit of THEM and NOT Us.......

trollbridge Member	# Posted: 23 Dec 2012 03:05pm Reply The parents of those "choices" need to put the child first and give the child up for adoption...so many couples waiting for children to love...and 9 months in the realm of life is nothing compared with living with the guilt that especially young women (and men) may feel for the rest of their lives. It's a much better solution for both sides in my opinion.

Rifraf Member	# Posted: 23 Dec 2012 03:47pm - Edited by: Rifraf Reply The media is completely ignoring why we bear military style weapons. Its not for hunting. I say stop using these dead children to push anti gun agenda.. its pathetic. There are many ways to improve our children's safety, The NRA made good points in that we protect the President, our Banks and Money, our political leaders and gatherings, even sporting events with armed guard but our leaders decide to make schools that hold our children gun free zones.. IE defenseless zones. What a backward opportunistic attack on the second amendment this has become. Its a proven stat that the cities with the tightest gun restrictions have the highest gun related mortality rates. Why we need and want the right to bear arms ? below. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=igerQd0dpHY

neb Member	# Posted: 23 Dec 2012 07:03pm Reply Quoting: Rifraf # Posted: 23 Dec 2012 15:47 - Edited by: Rifraf Reply Quote The media is completely ignoring why we bear military style weapons. Its not for hunting. I say stop using these dead children to push anti gun agenda.. its pathetic. There are many ways to improve our children's safety, The NRA made good points in that we protect the President, our Banks and Money, our political leaders and gatherings, even sporting events with armed guard but our leaders decide to make schools that hold our children gun free zones.. IE defenseless zones. What a backward opportunistic attack on the second amendment this has become. Its a proven stat that the cities with the tightest gun restrictions have the highest gun related mortality rates. Why we need and want the right to bear arms ? below. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=igerQd0dpHY So true!

Dillio187 Member	# Posted: 23 Dec 2012 10:29pm Reply Quoting: Anonymous Tighter gun controls have helped to reduce gun murder rates overall. but have not lowered over all murder rates.

Anonymous	# Posted: 23 Dec 2012 11:25pm Reply I too was horrified by this tragedy but I find it hard to fathom that putting more weapons out there could possibly reduce the overall murder rate. It might prevent a a tragic event such that happened in Newtown but I suspect that it would only add to the overall death rate. Overall murder rates are at least 3 X higher in the US compared to all other " western nation " There's gotta be some correlation between weapon control and murder rates. On the surface Americans and Canadians seem much the same..the difference in murder and crime rates just might be that we here in Canada seem to have a much higher aversion to firearms in general. Still most anyone who cares to own a pistol or hunting rifle can do so. I'm sure that we can all find something posted on the net to support one's point of view. I'm not against owning a gun but it does not seem necessary to own a weapon for protection in my country. Just a study done some time ago comparing crime statistics between our nations...not compete by any means but shows a general overview. " Statistics Canada – Catalogue no. 85-002-XIE Vol. 21 no. 11 CRIME COMPARISONS BETWEEN CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES by Maire Gannon Highlights • A comparison of police-reported crime rates between Canada and the United States for 2000 shows that the U.S. has much higher rates of violent crime, while Canada generally has higher rates of property crime. Despite differences in rates, trends in crime between the two countries have been quite similar over the past twenty years. • In Canada, there were 542 homicides in 2000 resulting in a national rate of 1.8 homicides per 100,000 population. By comparison, there were 15,517 homicides in the U.S., resulting in a rate (5.5) three times higher than Canada's. • Both countries have seen a decline in the number of homicides during the past decade, particularly in the U.S. Twenty years ago, the American homicide rate was about four times that of Canada. • Similarly, the aggravated assault rate in the U.S. was more than double the Canadian rate in 2000. The U.S. also showed a higher rate of robbery (65% higher) than Canada. About 41% of robberies in the U.S. involved a firearm, compared to 16% in Canada. • Canada reported higher rates for three of the four comparable property offences. There were about 30% more break-ins and motor vehicle thefts per capita in Canada than the U.S. in 2000. While Canada has had a higher rate of break-ins since the early 1980s, the motor vehicle theft rate has only surpassed the American rate over the last five years. The arson rate in Canada was 40% higher than in the U.S., while the U.S. reported 11% more thefts per capita than Canada. • In examining arrest/charge data, the U.S. had much higher rates for drug offences, impaired driving and prostitution. • The report also compares crime rates among the nine largest metropolitan areas in each country. With the exception of Boston, the remaining eight large American metropolitan areas had homicide rates much higher than any of the nine largest Canadian metropolitan areas. Conversely, Vancouver and Winnipeg reported higher rates of break-ins and motor vehicle thefts than any of the nine American cities "

EvoQ Member	# Posted: 24 Dec 2012 10:30pm Reply If you go to the FBI website you will see if you dig deep enough where the FBI has just started adding Suicides to the overall Murder Deaths by Gun. Why is the FBI trying to slip this by us ? Suicides are WAY up in general and Suicides by Guns also are way up too, but overall murder deaths by Guns are down and have been falling now for the past 5 years. However; if you do go by the Over-all FBI statistics that add-in Gun suicides then Yes one could conclude that Murders by Guns are increasing. But that is Not True and Far from the actuality. The FBI is showing their hands in adding in suicides by Gun; as now that branch of our government can also be added to the ever growing list of government agencies that are altering the stats, slanting these over-all murder numbers to show a motive of bias towards gun deaths increasing. These Facts Below are daunting but taken right off the FBI and Dept of Justice websites. I think you will find that our government is doing what they always do by mis-informing us or not trusting us with the truth. Our Government is the only modern Government that keeps so many secrets from it's citizens. Begin Quote............"Number of firearm homicides: 11,015 (3.6 incidents per 100,000 - http://goo.gl/bu0bt) - CDC/DoVS Number of firearm murders: 8,775 (2.84 incidents per 100,000 - http://goo.gl/AE0dq) - FBI Number of suicide firearm deaths: 19,308 (6.3 incidents per 100,000 - http://goo.gl/bu0bt - 2.20x times the number of murders) 2011: Number of firearm homicides: 11,101 (3.6 / 100,000 - http://goo.gl/8RgVI) - CDC/DoVS Number of firearm murders: 8,583 (2.75 / 100,000 - http://goo.gl/AE0dq) - FBI Number of suicide firearm deaths: 19,766 (6.3/100,000 - http://goo.gl/8RgVI - 2.30x times the number of murders) The difference between the homicides and murders implies a higher accidental death rate. Murders still declined. Homicides and suicide firearm deaths are two statistics that are often reported together to increase the shock value of the firearm death rate. Firearm murders are on a decline (as reported by the FBI, Bureau of Justice, etc.) yet suicides are on the rise. It's a distinction that should be made as they just don't qualify as the same coverage (http://goo.gl/zqJuA) and reporting them as such is a misrepresentation of the overall statistics. The statistics (in brief demonstrated here) shows there is a larger problem with suicide rate in the country. However, I feel the confines of this paper are not suitable for the mental health discussion as it could be had by itself. Lastly, If someone needs help (1-800-273-8255) they should have a way to get it, but that doesn't mean that everyone will seek assistance. Contrary to popular belief, the most common weapon used is not an assault rifle. In fact, the 2011 FBI murder report (http://goo.gl/LcT8v) details 12,664 murders, 6,220 (49%) of them were committed with handguns, knives totalled up to 1,694 (13.3%) and fists accounted for yet another 3.9%. Rifles came in in absolute last with 323 murders (2.5%), excluding unknown weapons. This is further backed up by California's 2009 report which explicitly lists the bullets used by frequency (http://goo.gl/RYG0e). The most common were the 9mm handgun round at more than double the use of the 2nd place round, the .22 rifle (or occasionally handgun) round. Traditional assault rifle rounds (7.62mm & .223") were in last place for usage. On the same Justice Bureau website (http://goo.gl/qccOz) we read; "During the offense that brought them to prison, 15% of State inmates and 13% of Federal inmates carried a handgun, and about 2%, a military-style semiautomatic gun." These statistics align with the FBI's 2.5% rifle usage rate in it's 2011 "About Gun Crime in the U.S" report, mentioned above (http://goo.gl/XpFiF). Quoting the Justice Bureau's webpage once again, (http://goo.gl/qccOz); "Firearm-related crime has plummeted since 1993" and a 1997 prison survey highlights the fact that illegal firearm sources most often come from "family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source" 80% of the time, contrary to common media misrepresentation that Gun Shows contribute many firearms, which were only listed as 2% of the response. Another statistic rarely mentioned is the ratio at which gun crime occurs to gun ownership. In the United States, there are estimated to be 270 Million firearms, both licit and illicit, in the hands of private citizens (http://goo.gl/i2ifW). Compared to the number of weapons used in a murder (See: FBI Report 2011) that occurred last year is 0.003178%. That's 3.17 per 100,000. Previous years (citing the same page), show that this is a continued decrease from each prior year: 2006:5.70, 2007:5.61, 2008:5.35, 2009:4.96, 2010:4.6 Verifying this information, the FBI Murder statistics show a steady decline every year starting at 10,150 in 2005 (beginning of the report) and ending at 8,583 reports in 2011: http://goo.gl/P5D5q All these statistics demonstrate that attention grabbing issues are nothing more than distractions from the real problem; Handgun and gang violence that the press has long since moved past. In this FBI spreadsheet on gang activity it is apparent that handgun usage is on the rise, and hasn't seen a drop in gang related homicide activity, (raw numbers: http://goo.gl/OxvrZ, chart: http://goo.gl/ZR5ih). We mostly see high publicity events that grab media attention, while the majority of gun violence is statistically carried out with illegally obtained handguns not assault weapons, (and not in schools) however those more common issues don't garner press attention. A fine example, is that the death toll from all mass shootings (30 over 13 years) since Columbine (273, http://goo.gl/J2oMJ) are surpassed by drive-by shooting deaths in Los Angeles, in a single year (275, http://goo.gl/qYSQJ). I do not seek to trivialize the horrific nature of the mass shootings that have occurred in our society but to suggest alternate means of handling their occurrence. As a society, we (and particularly the press) often have knee jerk reactions to extremist situations when there are much, much larger problems occurring, (daily even) that aren't pushed at us with such tenacity. As such I'll side with Roger Ebert and his recent article. If we stop placing the killers in the limelight, perhaps they won't be frequent. We shouldn't remember and glorify the names of those that stormed Columbine yet forget the victims; http://goo.gl/6UmOg"...........end Quote

Malamute Member	# Posted: 26 Dec 2012 01:03pm - Edited by: Malamute Reply Statistsics from various countries have been widely believed to be manipulated. Englands crime stats arent beleived by much of anyone that's familiar with them. The police and gov cook the books to make them look much better than they are. The difference in crime stats isn't as great as we're generally led to believe. Still, there are very great cultural differences between England and the US, and Canada and the US. Basically, Canadians are more like Brits, in having had a system of gov and society that has been more along the lines of accepting what they're told to do, rather than questioning so much, as is the case in the US. Someone once told me a sort of joke about the differences between Americans and Canadians. It was along the lines of "how do you get Americans out of a pool?" as they want to know why, for how long etc, argue about it, or simply don't want to. The second part is "how do you get Canadians out of a pool? You just say "everybody get out of the pool" and everyone does. Perhaps oversimplified, but not by much. Canada didn't fight a war of independance, and neither did England, they (England) were the ones that were thrown out in the American revolution. Those things have some bearing on national outlook and attitude. Comparing various countries is fraught with many difficulties in attempting to directly correlate the differences. Guns aren't the simple, only answer to the "question". Nobody thinks its "OK" to have people murdered (contrary to various media and those that have various political agendas), but true differences exist in understanding exactly why that happens, and what the "reasonable" response to that is. Both sides vastly exagerate the others reasoning and motivation, and often sanity. I believe though that most of the media attention is more politically motivated than anything.

neb Member	# Posted: 26 Dec 2012 04:16pm Reply Malamute Nice read and agree. US has lost control and people just do what they want to.

TheWildMan Member	# Posted: 28 Dec 2012 09:16am Reply been 8 days since i was last at an internet access (had 2 good snow storms and i been unable to go anywhere) Trollbridge, yes I have a lot of books, 1 whole wall of my cabin is covered in book shelves, everything from the art of war by sun tzu to Stouys guide to raising chickens. before i moved to the cabin my old house had all but the kitchen filled with books (and i read all of them), at one time i had and read more books than the small library in town. ended up donating most of them. Tom, I isolated myself for practical reasons, have aspurgers syndrome, my traits are a very high IQ and passion for collecting and reading books on history, back in high school i was into the 1800s fur trade and mountain men, dressed in home made cloths from fur, would fit well in a reenactment. but was a social nightmare, was beaten a lot and always picked on for the weirdness, school councelors told me my being harrassed was natural and society was like a flock of chickens. since i spent most of my free time reading or out in the woods alone (even at age 14) they gave analogys that i would understand. the odd kid, the weaker ones the nonconformist is pecked by the rest of the flock to create group harmony, same with omegas in wolf packs, it also happens in chimp populations. when i lived in town just before moving to the cabin I was harrassed badly, people threw things at me from cars, kids/teens spat on me, my car and house were vandalized. i couldn't walk to the post office without being threatened or have trash thrown at me. drunks would throw rocks and empty beer bottles at me (bar next door), and after i stood up to them was cut up badly (held down and cut with a knife repeatedly) i was 27 at the time and a government employee for my techniical training. the drunks told the cops i did it to myself and no one was arrested. after things kept getting worse I asked the bank to forclose on my house in town and spent all my savings to buy a chunk of land far from people. spent the last few years getting over the PTSD by working hard at building a self sustaining farm. I isolated myself to escape from the flock pecking me. i figure since i was so well disliked i am benefitting everyone else by not being around people, but my interest in the world and desire to be part of it has not changed.

TheWildMan Member	# Posted: 28 Dec 2012 09:38am Reply malamute, the US being flooded with guns gained canada self rule from england without a war of their own choosing. after the US civil war an army of Irish Imigrants and their families, with freed slaves and some native allies used a private arsenel of surplus civil war artillary and arms to march on canada (then british north america) the objective was to start a multi fronted rebellion against england, to free ireland from english opression (the english policy on the irish was basically a goal of erradication at the time, thats why most of the population left for the US, Canada, or other countries, the potato famine was facilitated by the english to reduce the irish population). if they couldn't free ireland they wanted to take canada to create a new ireland, a free home for a new irish republic. this group was well armed and even had working submarines they used against british warships (the most advanced subs in 1870). the invasion failed due to the lack of experienced leadership with the troops and poorly coordinated planning, Ireland never started its uprising on time. the failed invasion army fled south defeated after obliterating several british forts and regements. to help canada protect itself against future invasion england granted them self rule so they can muster defenses faster and make critical decisions without having to get englands orders or permission(not a quick phone call back then). I read about this in malachy macourts short history of Ireland

trollbridge Member	# Posted: 28 Dec 2012 11:38am Reply Wild man...sorry to hear about your difficult past. Aspergers is starting to be better understood now but did you even have a diagnosis as a kid? My nephew has this and I strongly believe his father (my brother) does too but he was never diagnosed. People can be very cruel...sometimes it appalls me how much so. Perhaps it is nature ... but as humans, one would think we could rise above it..............this forum should be a good place for you to connect with people...I'm glad you found it! Enjoy all that beautiful white stuff-8 days snowed in at the cabin would be heaven to me!!!

TheWildMan Member	# Posted: 28 Dec 2012 12:19pm Reply trollbridge, yes I was diagnosed as a kid. in elementary school i was stamped ADHD and pumped up on rittalin till i was too stoned to do much. my parents decided to double it and i was often left drooling in class completly stoned on it (imagine a 9 year old stoned). at 12 i was rediagnosed with aspurgers, and at the pleading of several teachers taken off the ritalin (they said i was like a zombie with no drive to do anything, no creativity, i got on well with art and history classes and those teachers spoke up for me). at the time aspurgers was still generally unheard of and only the most obvious kids were diagnosed (was able to build my own computer when i was 12 and then was asked to help the schools tech guy afterschool in fixing those 386 computers and older Apple 2E's they were using), could understand concept patterns and systems but could not understand the most basic skills needed for peer interaction. I'm actually enjoying it too much, got to the internet hotspot to look up info on making old style skis and snow shoes. got all the raw materials i need but am looking up diferent styles to pick one i like or get info to design my own style. I was out hauling wood the other day with a sled i made back in spring, was able to move 75 Lbs effortlessly.

EvoQ Member	# Posted: 28 Dec 2012 01:03pm Reply I read recently that the Psychiatric community is doing away with the terminology and also the symptomatic "Aspergers Disorder". I couldn't believe it but it's true. Link Here I know someone that has been diagnosed as Aspurgers and while he has a Brilliant Mind has trouble concentrating and avoids Social Interactions but revels in meeting people one on one. The above reference states -- Quote ..."One of the most hotly argued changes was how to define the various ranges of autism. Some advocates opposed the idea of dropping the specific diagnosis for Asperger's disorder. People with that disorder often have high intelligence and vast knowledge on narrow subjects but lack social skills. Some who have the condition embrace their quirkiness and vow to continue to use the label.".......End Quote --- Whatever the Motivation behind this Change in Diagnosis we can all agree that the Health Care system in this country is appalling to say the least. The USA is a World Leader in so many areas but in regards to Health Care we fall far behind the rest of the Modern World. The USA embraced the Group dynamic system of Health Care while the rest of the modern world went the way of Universal Health Care. One can be sure the reasons why the USA went with the Group system was based on Profits and Money. American has lost it's way IMHO where our society Favors Wealth and Power above Ideals. It saddens me to no end to think of how we treat our fellow citizens in need. To see these Business complain about the Affordable Health Care Act and how it will cost their business more, even talks of laying off employees to try and scare society to fight the Affordable Health Care Act. Both political parties ignored the super high costs of Health Care for years and years, the Republicans having control of all branches of government for 4 years was not enough incentive to do something about our miserable Health Care as they did nothing but argue. Finally something was done about it and now Conservatives lash out and proclaim the end of the world is near if the Affordable Heath Care Act goes forward. I wonder that these same people claiming the end is near are the same ones that convinced us to Invade Iraq because they had Weapons of Mass Destruction ? I try and convince people that Nothing matters more than our Citizen's Health. Just think of time lost at work because of illness sickness, or the suffering needlessly because of lack of Health Insurance. Business will continue to suffer when so many employees cant go to work because they are sick. Our society will benefit greatly when everyone can finally have access to affordable Health Care. If we can't do this for our society then we are doomed to where the Haves rule the world and the have-nots are mere slaves to society. To think that some of these tragedies could have been avoided if the access to Mental Health Care was more open and available. Why is it that we here in American place more value on the "status quo" rather than the Health of our citizenry ?

TheWildMan Member	# Posted: 28 Dec 2012 02:25pm Reply EvoQ this was something discussed for the DSMV5, the DSMV is all pseudoscience as nothing in it can be verified by the scientific proccess and independantly validated. DSMV is diagnostic and statistical manual, its a fancy title only. created by a pannel of selected experts who meet and discuss what they think should be considered an illness. the DSMV 1 only had about 30 things in it, the most extreme things that had distinct traits. the DSMV 2-4 were built on top adding things, and creating sub catagories for things that did not fit into existing ones. by volume 4 they were trying to create illnesses and labels that would be able to fit 3 for everyone in the country, right down to: Anxiety disorder associated with caffine, basiccaly if you drink too much coffee and get jittery over a long term you are diagnosed with it. the argument has been on for a while, is aspurgers a form of high function autism? or is it a seperate thing? the post you made reflects the trend favoring tossing out Hans Aspurgers namesake and merging it into autism. (Hans Aspurger was a shrink in 1940s Germany who studied children under the Nazi regeme and argued they be kept out of the camps for their intelectual uses in the future as little proffessors). when aspurgers is tossed out i bet half will be bumped over to high function autism and the other half moved to something else. I heard the shooter has aspurgers, in the news they claimed he was "mentally ill with aspurgers" I think its likely he had other issues besides aspurgers. if he was an oddball like me growing up with aspurgers he may have been sujected to some very cruel treatment as a social pariah. that could have created a jaded and vengefull view against society and a drive to hurt someone to get back at the world. if he was unconcerned with who but after a body count attacking kids would make sense due to lack of ability to fight back. the news also said he he and a lot of other loaners had imagined ideas about being shunned by society and wrongly felt persecuted. in line with my earlier posts the people in the flock would not see or understand it as such and think its imagined. each might do 1 or two random hurtful things for "fun" targeting an oddball thinking that it was nothing since it was only a 1 time thing for them, but if someone is repeatedly targeted by lots of people they can experience many times more, they would feel that way. i think what he did was vile, but as a targeted oddball i understand why he may have felt that way. i ended up a bit of a recluse with PTSD, I chose to isolate myself and work towards a positive future. i think a lot of the proposed fixes in the news will backfire and cause a lot more social problems. their fear based and emotionally charged solutions to complex problems. logic trumps hate, hate trumps fear, fear trumps logic. in the 30s the germans (as example) were suffering hyper inflation, mass unemployment, severwe poverty and hunger and were crippled by having to pay for rebuilding frace after ww1. the people were scared, had little hope for the future and a bleak outlook, their situation was complex and they craved an answer. this gave hitler and nazis a chance, they gave the people a face to blame:the jews, jobs: farming to seed an army and factory work to arm it, as well as well paid privledged work in the army, and a goal for the future: world domination. using the fear and hopelessness of a population gives a tyrant of dictator a chance to rise and put extreme views into law. to answer this threat the US gave its population a goal, farm and factory work for an army, and a goal to stop hitler. after the war things could go back to depression but with our factories unscathed by the war we became a world power loaning money and selling things to rebuild and a national goal to fight the soviets (who were competing with us) the 50s and 60s were the US glory days and most of our great infrastructure dates from those days (major roads, electric system, etc). 70s and 80s were good but slowing down, then the soviet empire collapsed, we stopped selling goods and started buying them. we don't have a goal to focus on, we don't have a focused economy, we got soft and bloated getting used to the glory days. people don't have a common goal, we are stagnant. as great as ending the cold war was, america was better when we had the soviets to comete with.

trollbridge Member	# Posted: 28 Dec 2012 03:53pm - Edited by: trollbridge Reply The wildman...do you mind if I ask your age? Too bad your parents answer was to double your meds, but I'm glad you were reevaluated and that you had teachers who cared enough to fight for you. Two of my daughters and my son in law are teachers and I always tell them that they never have any idea whose life they are affecting, that they may not realize at the time that the kind words or the geniune interest they take in a child may be be making all the difference in the world in that child's life. I also heard that the Sandy Hook shooter had Aspergers Syndrome. Makes sense...was he picked on and bullied his whole life and he was seeking revenge? He displayed no empathy, another characteristic sign. I would really love to know what help he received from his parents and healthcare professionals. I've gotten the impression that perhaps his mother had the tendency to brush his problems under the rug...to maybe try to deal with his issues on her own and maybe finally realized it was more than she could handle. I have to wonder if part of her reasoning for having guns in her house was to protect herself from her own son? Imagine the information his brother could share with law enforcement-i suppose in due time it will all come out. I also read that his brain will be studied...I wonder if anything useful will be learned.

EvoQ Member	# Posted: 28 Dec 2012 06:22pm - Edited by: EvoQ Reply "TheWildMan" I see you as a Highly Intelligent and also Highly Interesting guy that we all could learn a thing or 2 from. But what sets you apart from most is that you have allot of Introspection (if I am saying it correctly). This last year I have had allot of time to do some introspective thinking mainly about my future; but also some of my past. Not enough People IMHO do this "Looking in the Mirror" at themselves, figuring what they need to alter to make themselves a better person. I think Pride has more to do with that, than anything else in one's character. As for this Deranged Killer that we all speak about; I would be willing to bet that what we know and have heard from the News Media is probably Far Far from the actual truth of the Killer and of the Tragic situation of the shooting itself. And I doubt that we will ever hear the True Facts or the Truth. This like most will be swept underneath the rug of Government secrecy as "We the People Can't Handle the Truth". Our Government has done the thinking for us in this particular situation and regard. We have heard accounts that the Deranged Killer tried to destroy his Hard drive on his computer, this to me shows Premeditation and also there must be Very Damning Evidence on that Hard Drive. But we are told that this Hard Drive is beyond repair...Which I Highly Doubt is the truth. I am not in any way one of those conspiracy people, but I do know that our Government has proven time and again that they Lie and outright can not be trusted as their Priority is to Keep and Hold onto All Power over it's Subjects/People. One only has to look back in History the Outright Lies that our Government has told us, not to mention the Horrific things that our Government has done to it's citizenry. From giving Syphilis to Tuskegee Army Men to denying they did this until recently. To the Whole Weapons of Mass Destruction. IMHO the Deranged Killer most likely had much more severe cases of Mental instability. By labeling his condition as it has been is to try and lessen responsibility on his and his families part. Clearly though this Killer showed in his actions that he knew what he was doing was wrong and immoral. I am very concerned with our countries lack of effort towards the Health of our citizens. This to e should be job #1. However; this is sadly not the case. I could go on and on and I am sure hardly anyone wants to hear me rant about the inadequacies of our Government.

hattie Member	# Posted: 31 Dec 2012 12:53pm Reply My intention of this thread was "Prayers for those families in Connecticut". It wasn't meant to be a gun debate. Most here know my thoughts on guns. This morning Bob and I had a good long discussion on them and here are our thoughts: First of all, we can see the point of view expressed by some that guns guarantee their personal freedom and are necessary for Civilization to exist - "You can't make me, I have a gun". However, that isn't really Civilization at all, it's just the ability to protect your own personal view of the world. Surely Civilization is the ability (we like to at least think we have) to come together for the common good. Secondly, who among you hasn't either been furious with someone on the spur of the moment (road rage comes to mind), or seen a person that is generally rational (opinionated, maybe, but at least sane) get so agitated that you have thought to yourself "it's a good thing he (or I) doesn't have a gun"? I've seen it at public meetings - even Strata meetings. Human beings are, fortunately or unfortunately, emotional. Sometimes that emotion overcomes their logic, and if they were armed could lead to tragic consequences. We think that it is a lot more likely to fall victim to the emotional outburst of a (temporarily) enraged individual than to be the victim of a "planned" crime if everyone was "packing". Thirdly, how far do you go to protect yourself against "perceived" threats? Do you wrap yourself in bubble wrap before crossing the street? Do you wear a life jacket while on a Cruise Ship? Do you wear gloves and a surgical mask every time you go out in public? Of course not, and yet every one of those daily activities bear a greater risk than you face as the potential victim of a planned crime - at least they do in Canada where the society is, for the most part, not packing a concealed weapon. There will always be those in society who are intent on doing us harm. The greater risk, in our opinion, is having society degenerate to the point of it being an arms race - "my gun is bigger than yours". We get enough of that from our world leaders; surely we don't need to emulate them on a personal level. We are not against sporting guns, hunting, or the recreational use of firearms, but when we allow our FEAR (and it is just that - FEAR) to make us want to carry concealed weapons everywhere we go, there is a problem. Rather than focus on "getting the bad guys who might be hiding in the bushes", wouldn't it be better to work on making our tiny part of the world a better and more welcoming place? Show empathy for those with mental illness, show compassion for those needing help and focus our efforts on the GOOD in society, not the bad. Now, as this thread was intended, my prayers go out to those who have lost loved ones in this tragic incident. May 2013 be a year of remembrance, hope and moving forward for all those involved.

trollbridge Member	# Posted: 31 Dec 2012 01:24pm Reply May 2013 be a year of remembrance,hope and moving forward for all those involved. Amen Hattie! I sincerely hope these families will be able to find a way to cope...I'm not so sure I could-just so many obstacles to overcome. I pray that all the resources available are there as long as needed and that human kindness will continue to far outshine the evil doings of this one young man.

Malamute Member	# Posted: 1 Jan 2013 02:06pm Reply Quoting: hattie .... We think that it is a lot more likely to fall victim to the emotional outburst of a (temporarily) enraged individual than to be the victim of a "planned" crime if everyone was "packing".... It's often the case that people unfamilar with regular carry theorize that carrying is much more dangerous than it actually is in practice, or to not carry. We see this in the media especially. There have always been dire predictions of all the bloodshed in the streets when concealed carry laws have been instituted, and they have never come to pass when carry restrictions have become more friendly to those that choose to carry. If anything, the crime rates and "heat of passion" type problems have lessened in places that have made carry easier. Most that carry have the understanding that their actions can carry serious consequences if they are not in control of themselves, not to mention the obvious possiblity that they may not be the only person armed (tho this is the lesser consideration to most that I've heard discuss the matter). The information available is that in the vast majority of instances where people feel truly threatened enough to actually draw a gun in defense, the situation is defused without any further escalation and no shots fired. The available information also says that private citizens in the US justifiably use their guns 3 times more often than the police to stop a crime or assault. The other part of the question is, how many law abiding people can we disenfranchise of their rights because of a very tiny minority of people that break the law, and what someone "may" do? That begins to cross over into the "thought crimes" area. "Somebody MAY do something bad, so we have to restrict EVERYBODY". I beleive that is much of the resistance to further gun crontol laws. People don't like being assumed to be a criminal when theyve nenver done anything wrong, nor have their guns. Further laws dont seem to inhibit those willing to break the law anyway. (It's already against the law to commit murder)

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