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Malamute
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2012 11:11am - Edited by: Malamute
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One issue with "no guns" signs is that its not always "law" that you "can't", but if signs are up, and you are discovered to have a gun for some reason, it's a tresspass issue, meaning all they can do is ask you to leave, and if you do, nothing else can be done, you can't neccesarily be arrested for bringing a gun to a place that has those signs. Fed buildings, and state buildings are different matters, my comments are regarding no guns signs on private property that the law doesn't specifically prohibit. Each state handles that differently, but a "no guns" sign on a private business doesnt mean a trip to jail if someone chose for whatever reason not to comply. If one chose to carry where a place was signed, they should know the law beforehand. I wouldnt reccomend it, but it isnt exactly what many think it is.
Edit: Wake, it looks like we were both writing at the same time and hit Go at the same moment.
Another comment. Several have made comments about how far from civilisation being a factor in their choice to have protection or not. I always wonder, as ones "way out in the wilds" may indeed be anothers "back in civilisation". Even at home, I'm far enough out of a town that law enforcement response time isn't likely to be quick, and a day hike or drive can be out of cell range, with often little chance of anyone coming around to help. A remote-ish cabin, you could very well be quite on your own.
There's certainly no guarantee that bad guys stay in their own neighborhoods, or that they will quake and run when they see someone has a gun. Fact is, many simply dont. If one chooses to be unprepared for what life may bring their way, that's ok, (tho I've often wondered why folks with families choose to be defenseless, and have no way to protect their family) but there are few ratioanalizations that hold much water for me as to "why not be prepared". In the hills or not.
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Fusil62
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2012 11:23am
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Greetings, have been enjoying this forum for some time. Had to get registered and jump in on this topic. I carry for work daily. When not working I carry. When at the cabin I carry. For work and home the potential threats are different than those at the cabin.
Generally the greatest risk in remote areas ae not the critters but the 2 legged meth cooks. These are a significant risk on any remote public property as well as private. They have been found in some extremely remote areas. They have been found in the back 40 of peoples property. They are a dangerous risk.
Another thing to keep in the back of your mind are the international and domestic terrorists. There are a number of trainers that believe that the next terrorist incident will the in a school. It could be a rural school or urban. Think about the goals of terrorists. The greatest impact on us as Americans is to hit us in the mom and pop areas. The impact would be devastating.
What ever you have at your cabin, you need to know how to use it. Practice enough that you know when to disengage or to engage. Know when to lay down your arms. Know when to be a witness. This will apply to the 4 legged as well as the 2 legged. Be familiar with your state use of force and defensive laws. We MUST understand the impact that deadly force has on all parties involved. The impact is greater if we are not familiar with how it works.
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Malamute
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2012 11:31am
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Welcome aboard Fusil!
Some good points you raised.
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wakeslayer
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2012 11:39am
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Excellent post Fusil. Welcome.
There was a pretty significant meth cooking problem where my cabin is about 10-12 years ago. Our gatekeeper neighbor ran them off for the most part. The people doing that sh!t are not in their right minds. They are the biggest risk there as most places are light use cabins. Where I live in rural MN, I am 20 miles from St Cloud, where the gangs have decided to invade. What better cover than places like my home, neighbors far enough away they won't hear anything, especially in the winter with windows closed. Couple miles off the interstate...
You just don't know...
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EvoQ
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2012 11:56am
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If I lived where there was Crime or a Particular Threat that could not be fairly easily dealt with. Then I am MOVING away to somewhere there is much more contentment.
I can deal with the wild animals, but the crazy ones that mostly walk on 2 legs I can live and will live without that constant fear. yes; if where I lived was a constant mixed bag of threats from Humans, then my house.land are on the Market to be sold so that I can live somewhere else.
No way I am going to put myself in that sort of danger. I am out of there, regardless. To me; it seems simple, and the main reason why People Homestead and Live out in the wilds to get away from all that.
I live my life where I am in control for the most part, when I Have to start Living on someone else's terms then Good Bye I'm gone.
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Malamute
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2012 12:28pm
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Many simply can't move, for many reasons. Family, work, poor real estate market, co-owning their cabin or country place with family, etc.
Sadly, the world tends to change around us, often in ways we dont like. Moving off isn't always the answer, so we do the best we can in the new world presented to us. I think thats part of the reason we've seen a big change in concealed carry laws all across the country over the past few years.
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TomChum
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2012 01:02pm - Edited by: TomChum
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Quoting: Malamute (tho I've often wondered why folks with families choose to be defenseless, and have no way to protect their family)
I hear ya on that. Once I was in Missoula MT, RVing around the Nat'l parks, with my little girls. We went out for dinner, and by the time we were done decided to just 'camp' in a WalMart parking lot rather than driving around to read "campground full" signs. There was a couple cabovers in the lot. As the evening went on, the cast of characters that rolled in, in their decrepit motorhomes, and hearing the occasional drunken shouting, was "eye-opening". I was up almost all night, thinking "would I be better off at least having a gun?" With a gun, do I put myself closer into the risk of death by lethal weapon? Am I willing to shoot one of these guys just in case they have a gun? Who's going to shoot first, him or me? Where would I hide the gun in my van, would I load it on nights like this or keep it unloaded? And what if it was stolen, or what if 2 guys came up with guns an took it away? Do I really want to devote a year of my life to explaining why I shot first and did not "just leave before the situation escalated"? Or why the gun was loaded and "the accident happened?" No good answers to any of that.
I concluded that if I was going to use common sense, it would be to leave, not to get a gun and jump into the lethal danger pool. But then I decided that it would be better if I just calmed down, went to sleep, and don't camp in WalMart again. Which I suppose you guys would advise the latter is the best solution, ( except you guys would carry guns AND not camp in WalMart. ) I don't like that world of fear, but this time it didn't work out to be 'comfortable' but as usual, nothing happened.
One of my neighbors said "you can solve a lot of problems by just making some noise". That does make a lot of sense. For me though, a handgun makes no sense at all. I am not going to get myself into the mindset that its so dangerous that I have to carry one to make it safer, because it's not. There's no way in hell it's safer, it has many many more risks.
Currently. If the meth-heads move in that could change, quickly. But I am aware, I talk to the neighbors, I know what's going on. They have all kinds of weaponry but I never see them carrying them around or talking about danger, so I'll go with that. I think they would laugh if I came from the city (of which they are terrified) out to their paradise and worried about 2-legged threats.
Anyway, good debate. I wouldn't carry a gun around in my truck, but may hide a shotgun out at the cabin.
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wakeslayer
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2012 01:15pm
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Malamute, I had typed the same exact thing, and then deleted it. It just isn't that easy.
Tom, included after what I typed was Walmart in, I believe, Williston ND. In the middle of the big oil boom. Young guys are up there making a bunch of money with nothing to spend it on. Hookers, drugs, and booze get a lot of it. The towns are miserable. Walmart has banned camping there, and people are advised to not go out after dark. Are ya kidding? This is in a town where 5 years ago, someone may move to "get away from it all"
We have had to crash in some pretty stupid places a couple times due to full motels, weather, exhaustion, etc. Never had a problem. But you tend to sleep with one eye open no matter.
I think a decent semi auto shotgun, well hidden, but available, at the cabin is a good overall solution to most problems you would have. Alternate shells, slugs and buckshot, and leave it closed, no round in the chamber. The sound alone of a shotgun racking a shell will be enough in a lot of cases to make someone give pause.
I am sure this discussion will take more interesting turns as someone has just murdered a bunch of people at a school in CT this morning.
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Malamute
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2012 01:35pm - Edited by: Malamute
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Tom, I'd say if you're not comfortable enough with a gun around, then it may be best not to have one. On the other hand, I havent been in any situation I wished I didn't have one around, tho I've been in a couple that I wished I did when I didn't happen to. Nothing happened at those times, but that wasn't a given, and having one wouldn't have made anything worse than it was, just given me one final option if things went badly. If one isn't mature enough or have good enough judgement to know when to use one, or let someone else know you have one if the situation seemd to call for it, then they may not be good material for having one around and handy. Not making that statement regarding anyone in particular, just in general.
The option of simply leaving isn't always given us. Those are the moments that the word "need" comes into play.
It isn't a matter of being in fear, but one of knowing that you can handle things that come up. It's a level of self confidence that some never truly know. It isn't arrogance, as some would presume, it's confidence. Different animal. Nobody's looking for trouble (honest folks), but you know what to do if trouble finds you, and leaves you no other options.
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PA_Bound
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2012 01:43pm
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Did you'all here about the whacko in China, that injured 22 elementary school children and one adult at a school? But, since guns aren't available China, he simply used a knife. And this is just the latest of multiple knife/meat-clever/axe attacks that have killed scores and injured hundreds over the last few years.
Makes me think that guns aren't necessarily the problem... there's just some people that are a problem. And I have no idea how to ban them.
Source: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57559179/china-school-knife-attack-leaves-23-inju red/
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Scott_T
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2012 01:55pm - Edited by: Scott_T
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Quoting: Fusil62 Generally the greatest risk in remote areas ae not the critters but the 2 legged meth cooks. These are a significant risk on any remote public property as well as private. They have been found in some extremely remote areas. They have been found in the back 40 of peoples property. They are a dangerous risk. Another thing to keep in the back of your mind are the international and domestic terrorists. There are a number of trainers that believe that the next terrorist incident will the in a school. It could be a rural school or urban. Think about the goals of terrorists. The greatest impact on us as Americans is to hit us in the mom and pop areas. The impact would be devastating.
I am at a loss for understanding what is really wrong with a society that feels it needs to be armed to the teeth. Why did a nut job in CT murder 27 kids and adults? As for international terrorists going into the school - baloney. The biggest threat to our kids in school would appear to be their own (highly armed) parents. When will these nightmarish tragedies end?
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2012 02:16pm
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Quoting: Scott_T When will these nightmarish tragedies end?
When we don't have people with unbalanced mental states.
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peace
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2012 02:33pm
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I am that Anon who posted earlier on the previous page of this thread (13 Dec 2012 10:55, 13 Dec 2012 11:13).
Re: Breaking news on mass killing at the CT school, 30 or so innocent people are dead.
This is the real life scenario.
Think, what would likely happen if that crazy guy would not have access to guns? He would come to school and beat someone up. Then he would be put in jail, victim family would sue bunch of money out of him.
Now 30 are dead.
So what would be the next suggestion in the armed society? Arm every kind and teacher in the school so they can protect themselves?
Crazy.
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Malamute
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2012 02:38pm - Edited by: Malamute
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Quoting: Scott_T I am at a loss for understanding what is really wrong with a society that feels it needs to be armed to the teeth. Why did a nut job in CT murder 27 kids and adults? As for international terrorists going into the school - baloney. The biggest threat to our kids in school would appear to be their own (highly armed) parents. When will these nightmarish tragedies end?
I'm not sure this is quite the right question. What do you think the answer is, if this was in fact the question?
The rest of your post seems to indicate that the general population is the problem, not the abberant sociopath or mental case.
When will it end? It may never end, tho whether childrens parents own guns has very little to do with that.
I think highly publicizing these sort fo events, and sensationalizing them is a big part of the problem. Instead of JOHN, DOE SMITH went on a shooting spree at the Dairy Queen,...blah, blah blah", they should perhaps say "In a Dairy Queen in mainstreet USA, some deranged loser shot some people. In the next day or so, we'll let everyone know the names of the victims, Blah, blah etc, now back to our regular programming". Burying the bad guy in an unmarked grave, or crematiing him, and not publicizing his name if they died at the scene couldnt hurt either. Not giving them one iota of personal publicity.
It would probably stop or slow down if people were able to defend themselves when such nonsense happens. If the news reports mentioned that some jerk was shot in a shopping mall by a citizen as he was about to start shooting with some evil looking gun. Not everyone has to carry, it doesn't take many to make a difference. One guy was 10 feet away from the Oregon mall shooter when he started. Would have been a simple shot, even one handed, maybe with the gun upside down, while eating a taco.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2012 02:58pm
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The only solution I can see to the problem of school shootings is to train the teachers etc and allow them to carry in school. This nut job knew there would be no resistance.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2012 03:00pm
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I read that one of the teachers had to gather her students and hide in a closet. A better senerio is hiding the students than going after the nut and blowing his brains out.
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wakeslayer
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2012 03:05pm
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Peace, thanks for creating a pen name. Is it safe to assume you are NOT the Anon that posted on page 6?
In a comment section on some news article about this morning's tragedy, it was mentioned that a small town in TX has trained all teacher's to respond to a situation like this mornings. They are allowed to carry. I don't have any idea if this is true.
I am not sure that is a solution, but the guy who did this was breaking many laws this morning, obviously nuts, and could potentially have been stopped much sooner and prevented such a massive loss of life.
If we did not have crazy, murderous people, criminals, violence, we would not even be having a discussion.
Malamute. "While eating a taco" You're awesome !!
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Scott_T
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2012 03:09pm
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Quoting: Malamute What do you think the answer is
Don't know...too big a problem for this forum to solve.
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peace
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2012 03:17pm
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Quoting: wakeslayer Peace, thanks for creating a pen name. Is it safe to assume you are NOT the Anon that posted on page 6?
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wakeslayer
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2012 03:41pm
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Quoting: Anonymous The only solution I can see to the problem of school shootings is to train the teachers etc and allow them to carry in school. This nut job knew there would be no resistance.
I agree. Columbine, VA Tech, Red Lake, and now Sandy Hook in CT would fully support this notion.
Quoting: Anonymous I read that one of the teachers had to gather her students and hide in a closet. A better senerio is hiding the students than going after the nut and blowing his brains out.
Assuming you meant "then" I agree. Hiding in the closet could be perceived as safe. Until the nutjob opens the door.
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Dillio187
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2012 03:42pm
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Quoting: peace Think, what would likely happen if that crazy guy would not have access to guns? He would come to school and beat someone up. Then he would be put in jail, victim family would sue bunch of money out of him. Now 30 are dead.
or, how about this. Nut job waits outside said school until the 3:30pm end of day bell in his 3/4 ton pickup, and plows into the masses of kids coming out the front door at 60 mph. He kills more than 30 easily. The problem isn't the instrument, it's the damn people! Our society is doing down the tubes, all you have to do is look at TV these days, reality trash shows like Jersey Shore and Glee, crap like that. It's all drugs and sex, it's no way to raise the future of this world.
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cabingal3
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2012 03:48pm
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we got a phone call recently from our neighbor close by our cabin.he is a great fella.in his 80's.
he said someone called the clampets is going around stealing things.
he wanted us to come down and check out our cabin and make sure things are ok.i hate this-we have not been there since aug.i think it is august.just too long.
what do i do to protect us?i bring the generator inside the cabin and i cover her.so no one can see her from the windows.i put a big cover over the french doors so no one can see jenny.
we lock everything up.
then i put two chairs out front with a table in between with a cup or soda can at each chair.thats what i do when we leave.
when we are there gar has a gun.we keep aware of things.when i get on our property after a long time away.i walk the property.
our neighbor on the phone was cute.i said the only thing i know different is...there is cow pies on our meadow.he said oh john is renting out some pasture.i wondered if john our other neighbor was renting out our pasture.
right now not many can get to our cabin easily.its snowed and no one plows the roads.
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OwenChristensen
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2012 07:57am
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I'd like this topic to take a rest for respect. We do need to think about what has happened to our society that this can happen. After some time has gone by we can talk about how to keep this type of thing from continuing.
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bobrok
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2012 08:08am
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Thank you.
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manny
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2012 10:10am
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x2
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TomChum
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2012 11:38am
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Owen, thank you.
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Malamute
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2012 12:14pm
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Quoting: OwenChristensen I'd like this topic to take a rest for respect. We do need to think about what has happened to our society that this can happen. After some time has gone by we can talk about how to keep this type of thing from continuing.
I respect your thoughts on the matter, but would suggest that this sort of thing isn't a recent phnomenon. What has changed is the intense national news coverge of what used to be a local story. Just this morning I saw a youtube that confired my suspicion of the part the news coverage plays in these sort of things. The "expert" said that after intense new coverage of events like this, that they expect one or two more within a week or so afterwards, and that the sensatioanlization of the event was part of the problem, and people knew they'd be all over the news if they did it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PezlFNTGWv4
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 16 Dec 2012 08:56pm
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Once again all marching to the same tune. You should be ashamed and appalled. Easy access to weapons equals another tragedy. Admit it for Christ sakes. When is enough, enough ???
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btownemail
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# Posted: 16 Dec 2012 09:12pm
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Anonymous, if that logic was correct, then our neighbors to the south, Mexico should be a peaceful haven. Citizens are barred from gun ownership there and people are getting killed daily by guns. Let me remind you once again that if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have them.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 16 Dec 2012 09:17pm
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Quoting: Anonymous Once again .....
Once again ... hiding behind the anonymous tag.
How would it be if we all did that one every post that might be controversial to someone?
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