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morganplus8
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# Posted: 9 Nov 2012 10:44am
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We were one of the unlucky ones, my cousin and my brother were hunting and the cousin tripped and shot my brother dead. I love guns and had a hunting license but after that day, I saw the pain in my parents eyes, they would go upstairs into the attic and cry for hours while looking at his things. They never told me to be careful or stop using guns and I respected that. I changed my ways, took marksman training and shot guns at the police station on Saturdays and never went hunting again.
My Dad recently asked me if I have guns and I was honest with him and said "yes" but that I only target shoot in the woods with no one around. We are fine with that. The amazing thing was that my parents never once mentioned their loss to my cousin and nor did I. he suffered the most, losing his best friend and having to carry that guilt for life. I still love the smell of gun powder and will continue to make sure this doesn't happen to me or anyone I know. Now I kill fish.
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trollbridge
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# Posted: 9 Nov 2012 12:34pm
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Sad, sad accident. I am sorry you have had to carry that load. Your cousin especially...you are right. It is always so difficult to make sense of this kind of tragedy 
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morganplus8
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# Posted: 9 Nov 2012 03:13pm
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trollbridge,
Thank you for those kind words. I believe I can understand a little of what it must be like to lose a child having watched my parents deal with it over the years. It have made me a more thoughtful person too and motivates me to want to help others.
Funny, I thought I protected them from a future accident by parking my guns for all of those years but the motorcycle racing, mountain skiing and other dangerous things I've done really placed me in the same position that he was in that day. It takes some pretty awesome parents to let that kind of behaviour go on with their only son!
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trollbridge
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# Posted: 9 Nov 2012 05:14pm
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You are very fortunate to have such remarkable parents. Many marriages and families would have crumbled under such stress. Your parents are an inspiration and clearly their thoughtfulness and sensitivity has carried over to you. Imagine if they had allowed bitterness to take hold of their hearts the effect that would have had on you and your cousin.
I think all parents biggest fear is losing a child but most also realize that we cannot protect them from every danger. We have to allow children to explore life and follow their dreams. Although we may worry more about the "dangerous" activities, we also know that accidents can happen at any time, doing even the most innocent of task. We strive to remember how precious life is and that each day is a blessing not to be taken for granted.
I hope you get the opportunity to let your parents know just how lucky you feel to have them as your parents 
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sparky1
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# Posted: 9 Dec 2012 11:10am
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Just Yesterday in PA. some where, a Father climbing into his truck with gun in hand (Accidently) shot & killed his son sitting in the truck-HORRIBLE.
I never had kids---but if i had killed someone---i would NEVER touch a gun again.
my 2 cents.
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Malamute
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# Posted: 9 Dec 2012 11:40am - Edited by: Malamute
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So many of the tragic "accidental" shootings seem like they could have been avoided by adhering to the basic safety rules. They've been gone over many times and places, but they continue to be violated, with tragic results.
1.All guns are always loaded.
2.Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3.Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
4.Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
Not having a round in the chamber when getting into a vehicle, crossing a fence, in a building, or not actually about to shoot also goes vast leagues towards safe gun handling. There simply isnt a good reason to have a round chambered in those situations (why was the man in PA allowing the gun to point at his son, and why was a round in the chamber getting in the truck? How did it fire? So many chances to avoid that situation. So many failures of basic safety all at once). I dont say this as a knee jerk reaction, I've been around guns and shooting all my life, and carry nearly every day to some degree. The majority of "accidental" deaths I've heard of are actually negligent discharges. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but its true. I recall none that were unavoidable mechanical malfunctions that resulted in injury, especially if the basic rules are followed.
If kids or others aren't taught the basic safety rules, they have no way to know how to avoid doing unsafe things with guns, in whatever context they find them in their presence. It's the responsibility of parents and educators to help our kids know how to navigate in the world, gun safety is simply one of many things all people should know, even if they never encounter one or desire to even touch one.
It doesn't bring anyone back to say any of this, but it may encourage some to learn and use the practical safety rules, and think about what they're doing when handling guns. The issue isn't usually that guns per se are unsafe, but those handling them are unsafe. Guns can be dangerous when handled or used unsafely, but have no will or abilty for good or bad all by themselves, that is entirely dependant on the user.
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EvoQ
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# Posted: 9 Dec 2012 12:08pm
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Being new to these forums This thread caught my attention for several reasons and I wanted to post up and hopefully not step onto anyone's toes.
"Captain Wine" in his post mentioning a good dog for safety's sake is an excellent thought. I have always had bigger type dogs and currently have a Great Pyrenees female that is about 140lbs and just now at 2 yrs is starting to fully develop. A good semi-trained Larger Dog can make you feel much more confident in these type setting related to safety out in the wilds. Whether it be on your Cabin property or say just hiking thru the wilds.
Out west also a good firearm strapped to your leg will also go along ways in giving confidence. I mention confidence because in a threatening situation you must be able to Project your strength because if you can not Project your strengths then you are a disadvantage. being able to have the upper hand leaves you where You are in control of the situation. be it any type of confrontation. If it be a large Mammal ie; Bear, Lion, etc just a gun shot will 99% of the time scare them off and to the point where that Animal will remember and steer clear of your presence in the future.
I do want to add-in that Statistics show that Black Bears are 1,000x more likely to attack a Human than a Brown/Grizzly will. Even though Grizzly Bears can do much more damage the Black Bear every year attacks more Humans by far than Brown Bears.
Being able to project your strength onto a Black Bear; ie Large Dog/Gun/GunShot gives you such an advantage to be in control of the situation. Now with a Human intruder I would presume that just the sight or bark of a large dog would be enough to persuade the Person to turn around leave your property. This does not presume to say that All Humans or Animals would be reasonable. but having the ability to Project your strength puts you in a Much better position than without and having to totally rely on reason and defensive strategy (which I might add would only work in few situations).
As has been said the West and Guns just go together, that doesn't mean that they have to be used to kill. But only in a last resort type situation the Gun and or Large Dog can and will save your life.
I would think at the very least if you live in the wilds/outback that a Larger type dog would be a Priority for several reason. Dogs can hear, smell, see so so much better than we humans can. Dogs are truly man's best friend and truly live out their lives to service man's needs. I personally would not even think of living without a good dog by my side, they make me a much better person, not to mention the satisfaction that I get knowing that I am providing a good life for another and the teamwork that we share.
Sorry to have gone off on my rant, hopefully some of you might can get where I am coming from. thnxx for letting me share my thoughts.
Q
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 9 Dec 2012 12:39pm
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Quoting: Anonymous Owen, what goes up must come down. Shocking to me that you would fire a gun with so many people around.
Firing into the air is illegal, but its not deadly. Its a myth. I mean fired straight up. The bullet loses all its energy, falls back to earth by gravity alone. All the energy from the powder is expended. Its only gravity now.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 9 Dec 2012 05:22pm
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Correct, what goes uo comes down.
Also correct; firing straight up in the air results in the bullet falling to earth under only the force of gravity. A falling object will reach a terminal velocity; friction with the air will limit its maximum speed. That maximum speed may be 100 mph or about 150 ft/sec. Not all that fast when compared to the speed of a bullet as it exits the barrel muzzle.
However, not everyone who fires gunshots into the air to celebrate something, is careful to fire straight, or near straight up. Fired at an angle the trajectory of the bullet may be such that the bullet still has some velocity from being fired. There are cases recorded that involve celebratory gunshots and people being killed. More of those cases will result in an injury than death. And most often nobody will be struck at all.
A bullet falling under gravity alone could still cause injury and in a few cases has caused death. The very young and the very old are more susceptible. The young because they have thinner, delicate skin and the elderly as they have skin that has become more inelastic and impacys can break their skin more readily.
It does not make any sense to me to take the chance of accidentally causing an injury to someone by shooting into the air just for the heck of it. None at all. To me, firing into the air like that is not a responsible act. Even if the chances of anyone being struck are very low.
Search for the program notes / writeup from Mythbusters. They determined more or less what I have stated.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 9 Dec 2012 06:01pm
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I stand by what I wrote many months ago. Anybody that fires a weapon into the air to scare people should not own a gun. They are not practicing gun safety and are a accident waiting to happen.
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OwenChristensen
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# Posted: 9 Dec 2012 07:44pm
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All guns are fired into the air. The angle is the only question. It is not or never has been illegal to shoot at an upwards angle. If it was you couldn't hunt ducks, pheasants, grouse, etc.
Anonymous, I'm glad you feel qualified to make those decisions. There may be a time when your country needs you to decide who should have guns. In the meanwhile , keep your drinking party out of my back yard.
Owen
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EvoQ
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# Posted: 9 Dec 2012 10:10pm
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I would think that whoever suggested firing into the air such as I did to warn off an attacking Grizzly Bear or Mountain Lion, would be MILES, MILES , MILES, MILES FAR,FAR,FAR Away from population. I think some common sense should prevail when making assumptions about going downtown main street and shooting off your gun into the air. Let's be realistic about this.
For the most part Gun Owners are exactly like Car owners for the most part they take care in their actions. Automobiles kill way more people than guns do, not even close. A Gun or an Automobile are both Tools. Tools should be used for their only intended purpose and nothing else. In the hands of inexperienced a tool can be dangerous and deadly. And Common Sense should prevail. If I meet a Grizzly Bear on the same Hiking Trail, and he is a 100yrds away and starts to turn my way I am shooting up into the air, if that doesn't work then it's him or me if he attacks. Defensive first and then and only then Offense should be next.
Also be totally honest about banning guns, there are millions and millions of guns in this country, most licensed and registered, but allot of them are not registered and they too are legal. There is absolutely no logistical way for this government to take away all the guns in this country. That's not even talking about the thought process of 99% of gun owners will never ever have their guns taken by any means.
Banning Gun conversations are for people that are out of touch with reality, it just is not ever going to happen. I hope and pray that day never comes, because if it did, then this country would be in a revolution where anarchy rules. Something Like Nazi Germany back in the 40's.
Can we get this topic back on it's original intent of protecting yourself. I suggested having a large semi trained Dog, and then a Gun as a last resort. Some people will never feel comfortable around any guns. That is totally fine by me and I totally respect them for their beliefs. But the majority of people that live and work out in the "wilds" are quite the opposite. To these people a gun is a tool to be ONLY used properly.
Thnxx for listening to my approach I'm signing out of this discussion and onto more important topics such as my research into power for my homestead. Have a great day.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2012 12:26am
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Quoting: OwenChristensen It is not or never has been illegal to shoot at an upwards angle.
Depends where you are. Where our main home is it is suburbs. Illegal to discharge period. Half the county nearby is too developed... illegal to discharge at all. Ditto the city across the river. I was thinking of these locations because this is where every New Years Eve there are idiots firing off at midnight. Damn fools. Guns and alcohol should not be mixed.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2012 06:23am
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Owen you fired a gun into the air to scare teenagers away from your property in the dark and you didn't know the location of all of them. What you did is illegal and just like most who do illegal things they try to justify their actions.
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OwenChristensen
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2012 07:31am
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I don't live in the suburbs, I live in the country. I didn't know who they were. A couple weeks earlier someone stole a my expensive snowmobile. I'm sorry we disagree. I called the sheriff and he couldn't get here for a half hour. When he got here it was all over and he said he would have done the same thing.
If you don't want to protect you and yours that's your right.
Owen
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OwenChristensen
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2012 07:58am
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And furthermore don't assume the one you're offending cares about what's legal. I would never set foot in someone else's back yard, especially after dark.
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Cooks Dock
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2012 09:45am
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The 97 lb Lab has gained about 5 lbs ( getting fat--not likley) as we're walking miles and miles. Although he is a house dog he has full run outside on his own.
Sat night about 8pm I hear 3 or 4 barks and then nothing. About 15 secs later I hear a car horn..Friends of the kids who wouldn't get out of the car. Dog was sitting in front but off to one side. He was looking between the car and the front door but the tail was not wagging. Things were good the minute I openned the door. Love it!
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btownemail
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# Posted: 11 Dec 2012 02:13am
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I always carry a sidearm which is usually a .40 cal or a 44 magnum and a rifle, which is either a 45-70 guide gun or a 30-30 Winchester. Sometimes I like to take my 12ga or M4 with me, but that's when I want to go plinking. We had some cougar attacks on the neighbor's pitbulls a couple years back, so it's good to have protection.
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EvoQ
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# Posted: 11 Dec 2012 04:51am
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I have a Smith 629 44mag with 6.5 inch barrel and I would not even consider going anywhere outside in the wilds without it. It's a big gun but will do the job for most anything that I encounter.
Not too big to be unwieldy but not too small either to have enough knock down power. I have never used it and hope that I never ever have to use it either. Would only use it in last case scenario only for taking down Large Mammal intending to eat me or someone that I love.
That Mountain special Edition 629 is appealing but not at the price of a new one, I'll keep looking for a used one. For now my Stainless 629 is all that I need for protection outside for what I use it for. Of course have other Hunting guns, but the trusty 629 stays on my hip when I'm outside or nearby.
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Cotton Picker
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# Posted: 12 Dec 2012 04:30pm
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I was born & raised in a rural area of Southern MS during the 30s & 40s many miles from any town.
Guns were a normal & accepted part of our lives.
We used them for target practice & to procure game for our table on an almost daily basis.
Our parents trained us in their proper use & we considered them to be a tool.
I served in the Military for 20 years (54-74), including Vietnam, 69-70.
I am 6 Ft, 2 In tall & weigh 226 Lbs. I feel that I can handle any person IF we are both unarmed with any type of weapon.
However a small armed person could easily put me away. So could a bear.
My life & the lives of my family are precious to me & I will always ensure that I always take all necessary measures to protect myself & my family.
There are no second chances in life! When you are dead you are SOOO dead!!!
I may not survive every encounter but I have a better chance than those who will not take measures to protect themselves or families.
This is my opinion folks, formed through 76 years of rough living.
some of you will not agree & that is your right.
I am curious as to what your responses may be.
Cotton Picker
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wakeslayer
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# Posted: 12 Dec 2012 05:01pm
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Anyone in IL read the news the last couple days? Finally some sense coming through the fog there.
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Dillio187
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# Posted: 12 Dec 2012 05:06pm
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Quoting: wakeslayer Anyone in IL read the news the last couple days? Finally some sense coming through the fog there.
I'm happy for the people in that state, I have friends there and they have been ruled by Chicago for far too long.
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TomChum
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# Posted: 12 Dec 2012 08:14pm - Edited by: TomChum
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If all you need to do is make noise, can it be fired into the ground instead? You should ALWAYS KNOW where your bullet (or shot) is going to end up before you even think of pulling the trigger. But anyway; BB shot falling out of the air (out in the boonies) is not a big deal.
Owen, what would you have done if they responded by firing (into the air) as you did? I've thought about it often. That's my dilemma, I have a hard time thinking there is a net increase in safety when lethal weapons are the method chosen to communicate with your adversary.
Real big gun trouble in Portland yesterday......
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 12 Dec 2012 08:29pm
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Quoting: TomChum If all you need to do is make noise, can it be fired into the ground instead?
That is what I have done on occasion. It has arisen a few times when out in the NF and a few times when we've been at the cabin. I hear gun shots and have no idea if the person firing knows anyone else is around. Sometimes I use an air horn, sometimes I fire a couple of rounds into the dirt or a hand tree stump. Watch your toes. I did have a lead 45LC round bounce back at me once (from the end grain of a dry dead and down pine.
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OwenChristensen
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# Posted: 12 Dec 2012 08:54pm
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Well it was a different time for sure, thirty five years ago. After the group ran off, I sat in the trees for an hour or two. I still didn't know what it was all about. After a while I thought that my neighbor might also be standing guard. I whispered quite loud'' Carl are you out there ?'' A yep came back from the other side of our small road. We both thought it was odd. It wasn't until the next day that we figured that it was a drinking party.
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TomChum
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# Posted: 12 Dec 2012 08:58pm
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Quoting: OwenChristensen Well it was a different time for sure, thirty five years ago.
Yes its strange how two same situations are vastly different simply because the event occurs many years apart.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 12 Dec 2012 09:04pm
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The more information you post the worse it gets. So your neighbor was in the area when you fired that shot. All those kids are adults with children they know who you are but you don't know who they are since you decided to shoot insted of talk to them. I can imagine the bad reputation you have with them.
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SE Ohio
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# Posted: 12 Dec 2012 09:22pm
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This happened here in Ohio:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/21/amish-girl-shooting-gun-cleaning_n_1162704.h tml
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EvoQ
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# Posted: 12 Dec 2012 09:42pm - Edited by: EvoQ
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That's yet another tragedy, from someone that was improperly using a gun. Accidents happen everyday, and yes even MadMen use tools to kill people every single day. But these events should have no bearing on how I live my life if I am smart enough to not follow the footsteps of these people improperly using a tool which just so happens to be a Gun.
Kids drown in swimming pools, people get stabbed, people get mugged. And unfortunately to those people, but that is EXACTLY why I choose to live out in the Wilds away from too much civilization.
The Gun Debate will go on for years and years, and it will accomplish nothing. When People refuse to use common sense, accidents happen. Nothing can ever be done about that.
Guns will never be banned in this country, that's a fact. But MadMen and Idiots will keep doing the things that they do best, hurt the innocents with whatever they have available at the time.
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TomChum
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# Posted: 12 Dec 2012 09:46pm - Edited by: TomChum
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Quoting: Anonymous I can imagine the bad reputation you have with them.
I doubt it. I bet they (35 years ago) only thought "let's get out of here" and that was the end of it. If any effect at all they probably all went out and bought their own guns, emboldened by the demonstration that a gun = power.
Today - you'd get a visit from the sheriff, and lucky if only a "visit"! It's different now.
Quoting: EvoQ When People refuse to use common sense, accidents happen. Nothing can ever be done about that.
Don't kid yourself, common sense is not that reliable! Many people who display a LOT of common sense think it's OK to employ guns for settling disputes, even if it's as simple as just wearing it on their thigh. When you have that, expect that the number of accidents will increase.
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