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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2012 03:58pm
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Quoting: naturelover66 I know im a minority here... But I dont see why people go to nature ... Then want to kill it??
I dont know of a single gun owner who wants to kill wildlife. From what I gathered here reading the post, "its to protect themselves from the wildlife" or nut bag neighbors and as long as it never threatens, its never used.
I'm the guy who doesnt even want to kill a squirrel, even if its gnawing through my siding. I'd rather capture it and just relocate it to someone elses cabin.  
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spelk1
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2012 04:20pm
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In Canada guns tend to be less prevelant than in the US, so that is why I think you'll see differing viewpoints in this thread. In my neck of the woods, Saskatchewan, most farms you come accross will have a firearm of some sort stashed away, but it is rarely pulled out or even thought of. I know for a fact that in the area where we have our cottage no one has a gun, as was realized when a black bear was recently roaming in the area and the local wildlife officials had to come in to take care of it.
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DaJTCHA
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2012 04:21pm - Edited by: DaJTCHA
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Quoting: TomChum Do you go visiting neighbors while packing your heat? Or do you just not go?
From the first time I stepped on our property, I've always been armed. I've visited with the neighbors at my place and theirs and have always worn my Glock 23 (replaced by new toy(s): Ruger SR9c or SR40c-depending on my mood) on my side. Those that I've encountered either take notice, ask about it, share their own stories of beloved guns or ignore it all together.
My handgun isn't there to kill human or animal or threaten either. I open carry at camp because the possibility of me, my family or friends being threatened or killed (by either 2 or 4 legged creature) exists. I'm not paranoid because I've encountered first hand situations where the fact that I had a weapon, in an open carry position, was what saved me and my friends from that point of transition where one goes from being subjects of observation and inspection to categorized as prey. Sadly this has happened twice while trout fishing/tent camping within the national "wilds" forest systems of Pa.
The circumstances at my camp may be different from yours simply because about 1/2 the few neighbors I have either open carry themselves, target shoot for recreation, sport or competitively. Every time I head up the mountain and see a light on through the woods, I eventually stop in to say hi and check on them. Many times, it becomes a ... "Hey, check this beauty out (insert firearm model here)! I brought it up because I thought you'd be up and would appreciate seeing it!"
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wakeslayer
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2012 04:25pm
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I open carry in Idaho. I conceal carry in MN. I just do. For my own reasons, not dissimilar from DaJTCHA states. The world is full of unpredictable factors.
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rayyy
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2012 05:14pm
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I have a 16 guage single shot shot gun,a 22 long rifle and a ruger 22 pistal.Never had to use them on an unwelcome visitor.Hope to never have that encounter but I do have friends that have been ripped off by some lowlife dirtbags.I feel for them.lost everything to them theives.It is so sad to know there are people out there that would dare do somthing so rotten like that.
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mustang46
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2012 06:30pm
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I visit my neighbors all the time while armed thay are as welll we often show and tell about them its a gun culture we all hunt and share the harvest
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Borrego
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2012 10:19pm
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Quoting: project_north I don't understand what the guns are about. It kinda freaks me out you guys.
I'm a peaceful kinda guy, but there are many dangerous people out there, especially in my neck of the woods, errr desert.... lotsa illegal aliens and their coyotes mostly..
Plus guns are like tools to me, really fun to use, particularly the older wild west guns!
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Borrego
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2012 10:27pm
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Quoting: naturelover66 I know im a minority here... But I dont see why people go to nature ... Then want to kill it??
No, No, No, we don't want to kill anything! It is just dangerous out there and we want to be prepared. In my case, there are no police available (over an hour away) so what would you do?
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OwenChristensen
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# Posted: 24 Aug 2012 08:06am
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Borrego, I'm like you, I'm facinated by the Old West guns. I don't
''need'' them I just like 'em.
The non gun people think we're out to kill something. Not true. At least for me. Yes, I hunt. I eat meat, I can kill my own, I don't pay someone else to do it.
If I had the chance to kill a bunch of game, I sure wouldn't. Just what I thought my land can afford. I passed up so many opportunities last season, I didn't even get a deer. I just like the hunt so much, I spend the whole year in preparation. I take care of the game on my land. If they're having a tough winter, I'll feed them. I also take a lot of pictures.
Owen
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TomChum
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# Posted: 24 Aug 2012 11:33am - Edited by: TomChum
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Quoting: OwenChristensen I'm facinated by the Old West guns. I don't ''need'' them I just like 'em.
Now I could go along with that!
I don't believe all this protection stuff, I think it's just a point of view that is used to protect the 2nd Amendment, it's marketing. Just like touting the "health benefits" of medical marijuana, 1% true, 99% self-serving BS. However when you have a LOT of people walking around with a finger and a trigger, statistically more mistakes will happen, and statistically the percentage of nutcases grows too.
I like guns because they are precision tools, that produce excitement. I like the way they work and how they are built, and the accuracy. The protection aspect is so un-used and unnecessary it requires that you create a borderline INSANE storyline to buy this POV, leaving you fearful, afraid to go places without your gun that even weenies will go all day long, and not just because they are stupid. It's because the danger is genuinely remote. All the CCW folks tell each other these stories, back and forth, it's inbred.
If you really want protection, join MADD (mothers against drunk driving). Teach your family how to avoid unhealthy food and food industry chemicals. Stay in good physical shape and teach it to your family (perhaps even to your parents). Those 3 actions can increase your family's safety hundreds of times more than a gun could ever do. And if add a gun, to these 3 actions, prevent it from hurting someone when used by the wrong person. That's the most significant risk of having a loaded, lethal device "around" all the time - so much opportunity for something to go wrong.
Of course, that's just my opinion, just the way I see it. We need to protect the 2nd amendment, but the BS, along with the notion that adding fear to your life and everyone around you is "good", this just bugs me. No worries if anybody disagrees.
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Seto
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# Posted: 24 Aug 2012 11:41am
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2 legged predators don't come down to my place, i got nothing of value and the "deliverance" style hillbilly look of my place scares em off, got a sign on the trail just before getting to the cabin that reads "no tresspassin, unless ya got a real purdy mouth" never have trouble with tresspassers.
4 legged types i usually pick off with a crossbow, spear, or trap.
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bugs
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# Posted: 24 Aug 2012 12:12pm
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I was wondering at what point would people pull the trigger on a trespasser?
There is a definite US/Cdn split. Laws are very different between the two countries regarding firearms.
I may be mistaken but in Canada a normal person cannot legally carry/pack a loaded hand gun concealed or in plain sight. And getting a permit/license for a any gun is a long process....which may be a good thing. I found it odd when looking through the application how much space was spent on ex spouses! Must be a trend there.
And you legally cannot wave at/threaten a trespasser with a gun to protect your property.
And still regularly we see sad news stories of kids accidentally shooting their friends or siblings with their parent's improperly stored guns. Or, a radical freeman (Sovereigist(?) in US) groupie with a "collection" of machine guns and accessories.
I am just glad that I don't feel threatened out a our shack. Only time we get nervous is during hunting season when "foreigners" from outside our area (city-types) and many from below the 49th come to hunt descend on our area. Many disregard the signs and think it is their rite to hunt where ever they please and shoot at almost everything that moves including the odd horse and cow. These types really give hunter/hunting a bad name and spoils it for the rest.
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wakeslayer
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# Posted: 24 Aug 2012 12:23pm
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Tom, I respectfully disagree with your generalization. just ask the people in the Colorado theater, or NYC this morning, or pick your place. Of course the likelihood is extremely remote of ever needing it, but it is there. I don't spout off cliches or beat the NRA drum or anything. We live in a nutty world. Period. I live 15 miles from St Cloud, what used to not be a suburb of Minneapolis. Gang crap, armed robberies, muggings, stabbings, are frequently in the news. It is everywhere. I don't swagger around because of it, and I don't go anywhere I would not otherwise go. I do feel more comfortable that my wife carries. She is a very pretty woman, and I feel that, again, the world is a nutty place, and she refuses to be put in a more vulnerable position than necessary.
Also, with respect to MM. I think there is more than 1% of the people that do benefit from it. Cancer, glaucoma, HIV/AIDS all have proven upsides for pain and nausea relief. My wife has rheumatoid arthritis, and that is the one thing that helps her during flares. She has so far avoided methotrexate for years, which is basically watered down chemo and an immuno-suppresant with all kinds of down sides. I do think that a lot of people get the card unnecessarily and/or illegally, but that is a different problem.
Secondly, I absolutely agree with your three things that people should incorporate in their lives. Those three alone would benefit the vast majority of the population.
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Rifraf
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# Posted: 24 Aug 2012 12:38pm - Edited by: Rifraf
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I have a hand gun in a push button 2 inch thick steel 300lb safe, its loaded and ready to put down any intruders but impossible for anyone but me and my wife to get their hands on.
I dont like guns, I dont hunt but the idea of my family being at the mercy of a criminal who does have a gun is enough for me to have one here. To be clear its for a nightmare scenario.. I dont have any interest in waving it at someone who is trespassing on the acreage
Police would take at least 30 minutes to get here if they were called in time to make a difference.
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Dillio187
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# Posted: 24 Aug 2012 12:50pm
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Tom, I couldn't disagree more with your statement. You must live in a bubble to not see the world around us for what it is. Of course, the media rarely reports on a crime deterred or stopped by a CCW holder. Such is the way of things, but just because you choose to not carry, or wear your seat belt, or a helmet when riding a bike or motorcycle doesn't mean others shouldn't.
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hattie
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# Posted: 24 Aug 2012 12:52pm
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I'm not against hunting. Hubby hunts grouse every fall and has a nice collection of guns. The only time he carries a gun is when he is hunting.
I guess there is a chance a bear or cougar or lunatic could get us out in the woods but there's also a chance I might get run over by a car going to pick up my mail down the street. But I don't wrap myself in bubble wrap so that I'll bounce if I get hit by a car. *LOL*
As bugs said, it's just different here in Canada. I'm not saying it's good different or bad different - it's just different, and noticing the differences is kind of interesting IMO. *S*
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PA_Bound
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# Posted: 24 Aug 2012 12:53pm - Edited by: PA_Bound
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I'm going to draw a distinction here between trespassers, and criminals. I would never pull or flash a gun on a trespasser, let alone consider pulling a trigger. Most of them are simply walkers, hikers, riders on horseback or simply a wanderer out to enjoy nature that means absolutly no harm. I say welcome to the place, have a seat, take a load off. Feel free to enjoy the land, just leave it as you found it. And so far everybody has.
But I also carry a gun when I'm there. I'm too far out for the police to protect me, but not so far as to be able to escape the low-life of society. And most of the time it's me, my wife and daughter. If it's just me there... I'm less concerned. But woman change the equation.
In short, I live that there really is no such thing as a trespasser on my property. They're just unplanned visitors. I typically introduce myself to them, and then they usually become new friends- and more eyes to help look after the place. But I've had others come through, whose behaviors were, well, discomforting. One glimpse of holstered firearm has been enough to guide them back on their way. But don't misunderstand, the moment a visitor to my land becomes a criminal the relationship changes. I'm prepared to use just as much force as it takes to protect my family. How much force however is determined by the sustained actions of the criminal, not me.
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Dillio187
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# Posted: 24 Aug 2012 12:55pm
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great post PA_Bound, I'm in total agreement.
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Seto
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# Posted: 24 Aug 2012 01:27pm
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when is it needed? hardly ever if your lucky. a tresspasser is a person on the property without prior approval, could easily be someone whos car broke down and is looking for a phone, or any random person, not a big deal. tresspassers who are there for criminal activity are the problem ones. hunting or trapping on other peoples property is common here, timber theft (cutting wood off someones property) is a common thing to (the law says if timber theves are caught they must pay 3 times the value of the wood). if you catch someone breaking in, or stealing, or anything like that, call the cops, at a cabin they may be miles away from you so do what you must to protect yourself, if they run let them go and let the cops find them, if they act aggressive towards you use your tools to better your safety depending on what they do. the law protects you if you do not use excessive force (you shoot them in the back while they run away, your going to prison, they rush at you with a knife, you can protect yourself)
you can get some good insight from Ayoobs articles in backwoods home magazine
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trollbridge
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# Posted: 24 Aug 2012 02:30pm - Edited by: trollbridge
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Interesting reading...and I chuckled at Borrego's comment about the Trojans 
We don't hunt nor do we own any firearms. I'm not against people having them-they are just something that I personally don't want around me or my kids. Our oldest son does hunt and that's fine, I just always pray that he is careful and that the people around him are too.
Some of you are very familiar with this story because you are from the area but others may find this interesting. Many unfortunate events happened this day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chai_Vang
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TomChum
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# Posted: 24 Aug 2012 04:08pm - Edited by: TomChum
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Interesting story (re: Chai Vang).
If there are 9 people with guns, and any one is an a**hole (or drunk a**hole), everyone is, at that point, in 'grave' danger. Think of it this way, who wasn't "protecting himself?". They all were. If they went after the trespasser armed with only a radio, there would be no deaths, and they all would probably hunting today, including Vang and his sons. How many kids were affected when their dad didn't come home? This is a heartbreaking story.
Quoting: PA_Bound I'm prepared to use just as much force as it takes to protect my family. How much force however is determined by the sustained actions of the criminal, not me.
What if the actions that you choose, cause the 'trespasser' to feel genuinely threatened, and he happens to be an army sharpshooter? Or a hot-headed sharpshooter? Not saying Vang was a victim, just "what if?" The consequences to everyones decisions become FINAL and very final at the first shot, its life or death. You carry a gun, you put life or death on the table. Life or death does not need to be part of trivial disagreements.
Agreed there are examples where guns created safety, of course those don't make the news.
Wake, PA, Dillio, TB i welcome your input, its a pleasure to be able to discuss this with thoughtful folks. I do think about having one locked away in a safe though, as an ace in the hole. Currently my girls are learning gun safety with a BBgun.
Being on this earth 50+ years I have had lots of experiences, good and bad, and I'm not convinced that its as unsafe to live in the USA. I think the CCW crowd is in the "bubble", one that (honest) statistics can easily pop.
Protection from brazen, marauding 12-packs!
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trollbridge
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# Posted: 24 Aug 2012 06:23pm - Edited by: trollbridge
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Yes, the Chai Vang story is a tragedy any way you want to look at it.
Unfortunately race became a large part of it too. I just hope that lessons were learned and are never forgotten. No doubt they would all be alive with, or with out the guns, if common courtesy had been shown and respect for fellow mankind displayed. All it took was one person feeling "untouchable" due to their gun and their strength in numbers to set off a chain of events that will for a long time dampen the spirit of Wisconsin's beloved deer hunting season.
Stay safe and follow your heart...just don't forget to bring your brain along with you!
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customrunner
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# Posted: 24 Aug 2012 06:34pm - Edited by: customrunner
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Wow!! the gun topic never gets dull, I am a Canadian, I like Guns and as for protection from others never needed a gun(have had someone pull one on me and he regretted it after I got hold of him do I wish I would have had one then no because my life would be a hole lot different if I did, Jail or not)as for the other animals of the world last week there was 5 rattle snakes, one cougar, one badger and a mother bear and her two cubs, now I have grown up around these animals as a kid in a small town where my dad was a trapper by trade, seen more dead animals then I would care, so no I dont hunt (have no problem with legal hunting)but these are wild animals and I have a 4 year old girl and if I had to protect her or others from a bear, cougar etc.. I would!!!
Just my 2 cents
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OwenChristensen
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# Posted: 24 Aug 2012 07:05pm
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I see no issues with most of the folks here. Just because I don't feel at all threatened, doen't mean some don't.
Also, I will rise to any occaison to protect me and mine. A gun could be the answer, who knows. At least I'll have one if needed.
I wouldn't pull a gun on a trespasser, but any that show up will be carrying a gun, one on my hip is a comfortable feeling when conveying my wishes. It's only is hunting season that it might happen .
Some here have talked about the fear of crazy owners of guns, well at least there is some background checks on conceal and carry permit owners. I think that means that there are less crazy legal pistol owners.
Owen
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 24 Aug 2012 09:22pm
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Quoting: OwenChristensen I wouldn't pull a gun on a trespasser
Just a note... one does not "pull a gun" on anybody like a simple trespasser or whatever, without "just cause". Pulling a gun from its holster will be interpreted as making a threat and that in NM, and most if not all other places, will bring one into confrontation with the law. Pointing one in the direction of anyone without good cause can get you arrested.
If open carrying, you keep your hand away from the firearm unless there is direct cause to draw it. If concealed carrying you don't make any deliberate moves to show the weapon. Anything that can be interpreted as deliberately making a threatening motion can get you into trouble. OTOH simply wearing a handgun in an open carry holster (where permitted) is considered to be non threatening, no matter the opinion of those who don't like the sight of guns. At least that is the case in NM. Different locations may have different rules; that can get confusing at times. The simple act of open carrying is more than enough to deter any would be thief or vandal, IMO.
I have been a "mugging" victim once years ago before I owned any handguns. I was a potential victim on one other more recent occasion, however when I turned so the guy could see the holster he literally ran back to his truck. Oh, he had a tire wrench in one hand as he approached me at the side of a very sparsely traveled stretch of road.
Quoting: OwenChristensen ...that means that there are less crazy legal pistol owners.
Even if it was suddenly illegal to own handguns in my state there would still be those "outlaws" who would continue to carry a handgun illegally. There are many reasons someone can be banned from possessing a firearm. Being a felon is one. Those guys already have no respect for the law so they would continue to use any means to obtain and carry a gun.
FWIW, NM is a gun friendly state. We have concealed carry permitting. We have open carry statewide and the state constitution forbids local jurisdictions from making any laws more restrictive than the state. There are places where a gun is not allowed; schools, government offices, courts, and a few others. Any business or private land owner may post a sign declaring "No firearms permitted" if they desire. A person may have a loaded and concealed weapon on any land or premises they own or rent or have permission to use. This includes ones motor vehicle which includes motorcycles. In your truck or car or on your m'cycle you can have a loaded concealed weapon without requiring a permit. One you get out or off then you could be in trouble if you have no CCW permit.
Anyone with a firearm should become very familiar with their state and local laws. There can be some odd wrinkles.
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Borrego
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# Posted: 24 Aug 2012 10:13pm
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I use guns as tools, I'm not a 'gun nut'nor are any of my friends. We just like guns. Period.
And as for the protection aspect, I'd rather have my pistol and not need it than to..........y'know
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trollbridge
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# Posted: 24 Aug 2012 10:34pm
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Quoting: MtnDon I have been a "mugging" victim once years ago before I owned any handguns. I was a potential victim on one other more recent occasion, however when I turned so the guy could see the holster he literally ran back to his truck.
I once was assaulted by a man whom I did not know and whom didn't even care that he was in a public place. Would a gun have helped me then? I'm not sure...it may have helped...or made things worse for me. Every situation is so different and when you are caught off guard there isn't much time to think.
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wakeslayer
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2012 10:18am
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This is about the most levelheaded, healthy discussion I have ever read on this topic.
Great thread!!
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groingo
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2012 11:15am - Edited by: groingo
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If I know there are bear about I take a couple "Bear Bangs", harmless but make a hell of a racket.
I spend a lot of time in the wilderness and live there as well and never have felt a need for a gun and as far as people go, would rather have them take everything and go rather than shoot me with my own gun.
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TomChum
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2012 01:46pm
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Quoting: groingo would rather have them take everything and go rather than shoot me with my own gun.
I hear ya. Or shoot someone else, or a cop, with MY gun.
I'm thinking of getting a pump-action 12ga, for the noise it makes which can get the point across even if ya don't fire it.
I don't like the process of transporting it. Any ideas how to make a hidden 'locker' out in the woods?
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