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rockies
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# Posted: 5 Apr 2017 19:22
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I was reading an article in Home Power magazine about these batteries. Apparently they can take a full depth of discharge and can last up to 30 years.
https://ironedison.com/
https://ironedison.com/nickel-iron-ni-fe-battery
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 6 Apr 2017 00:24
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Very impressive batteries- I'd never heard of these. VERY expensive, but very long lasting. I wonder how the math works out in terms of dollars per watt/hour compared to lead acid, over the life of the battery. Do you have to keep and use them for 30 years before they pay for themselves?
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rockies
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# Posted: 6 Apr 2017 19:05
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On the "Learn More" page there are some links to information about the costs and comparisons between different battery types in section 5.
https://ironedison.com/technical-info
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 7 Apr 2017 08:44
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Here's their cost comparison chart
https://ironedison.com/images/Spec%20Sheets/5.%20Lead%20Acid%20vs.%20Nickel%20Iron%20 and%20Lithium%20Iron/Cost%20per%20kWh%20lifetime%20comparison.pdf
which shows, by their calculations that iron nickel batteries cost half as much as the best lead acid batteries over the life of the batteries, 30 years.
So in 15 years you break even. I wonder what comparable batteries will cost 15 years from now.
Also, their statistics presume daily charge/discharge, but I wonder how long they will last if not used daily. Apparently they don't degrade just sitting, like acid types
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rockies
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# Posted: 7 Apr 2017 18:58
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The other considerations are the cost involved in manufacturing a battery that may only last from 3-7 years and what to do with your old batteries once they've been used up?
The $9700 price tag was for a 24v 500 amp battery. A 100 amp battery was $1940. I suppose if you carefully designed your cabin systems so that they needed the very least amount of power you could have a smaller battery than 500 amp.
The next longest lasting battery was the Surrette's at 12V and last 9 years. Their lifetime costs for power were more than triple the Edison's.
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Atlincabin
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# Posted: 7 Apr 2017 20:37
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I've seen and read a little about these and considered something like this for my off-grid cabin. I don't recall now what the downsides are to these, but surely there were some other issues than the initial cost.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 7 Apr 2017 21:48 - Edited by: bldginsp
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They say you have to add electrolyte every 6 weeks or so. If you forget, is there long term damage done? I think I read that they are not harmed by freezing, which is good.
For businesses with computers or other machines that must keep operating in a power outage, I'm sure these are a viable alternative. So there must be someone out there with a lot of experience with these, other than the manufacturer, whose picture is as rosy as can be. If I considered these, I'd search far and wide for such opinions ahead of time.
The manufacturer could probably recommend some such person, but of course they probably wouldn't point you to their most dissatisfied customer, who is the guy you want to talk to.
Here's a link to a forum discussion that has some criticism of info claimed on the Iron Edison website. It's a bit confusing-
https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forum/off-grid-solar/batteries-energy-storage/ni/7007- nickel-iron-battery-nrel-test-results
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ICC
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# Posted: 7 Apr 2017 22:19
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I believe the biggest down side is the replacing of the electrolyte. It is a strong alkali solution and that brings disposal problems. Iam not sure how often the electrolyte needs changing; probably dependent on use cycles or something. I just remember reading about that a few years ago.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 7 Apr 2017 22:41 - Edited by: bldginsp
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The plot thickens- here's the first of a series of YouTube videos by someone who claims to have researched Iron Edison very carefully. He asserts that it is a scam. The assertions made by Iron Edison do not match the assertions made by the Chinese manufacturer of the batteries. The Chinese manufacturer states that if the batteries are discharged to 80% regularly they will last only about 1000 cycles, not 11000. At 20% discharge they will last to 9000 cycles. Nowhere does the manufacturer assert that the batteries will last 11000 cycles under any circumstances.
Iron Edison does not manufacture anything, nor does its owner have any experience with manufacturing. He's a marketer, at least according to this video.
I have no idea who any of these people are, or what's going on here, but the critic shoots holes through all the wondrous assertions made by Iron Edison. If he's correct, nickel iron batteries are useful in emergency backup situations where they won't get discharged much, will be regularly maintained, and long life is desirable.
More research needed....
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QrAwI7SxLh4
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creeky
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# Posted: 8 Apr 2017 18:13
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Good grief.
Lithium. What else do you need to talk about?
Lead is dead.
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ICC
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# Posted: 8 Apr 2017 18:23
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No lead in a NiFe. 
But I do wonder about why anyone would want to mess with them
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rockies
Member
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# Posted: 8 Apr 2017 19:09
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One thing that should be asked is how much of a discharge does the average battery actually endure for an off grid cabin (Running a fridge, a well pump, some lights, etc)?
I mean, if your standard level of discharge is 30% and the nickel-iron battery can go to 80% discharge (which might rarely if ever happen) then wouldn't the fact that the battery itself can last through 11000 cycles cause it to be a better choice than another type of battery that can only last through 3000 cycles (even with the same 30% discharge)?
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KelVarnsen
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# Posted: 8 Apr 2017 20:31
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Quoting: creeky Lead is dead.
Creeky you are always saying that "lead is dead". However, many of us are only able to use our cabins on weekends and occasionally our cabins are unoccupied for months at a time. Short of disconnecting our systems and carting our batteries home how do you suggest that we handle the issue of lithium batteries freezing?
I'm really interested in the options. I will be doing the internal wiring for my cabin this summer and looking to do a solar/battery install next year or the year after.
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creeky
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# Posted: 9 Apr 2017 08:58
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KelVarnsen, Lithium is actually superior in your/this situation.
You can use your lithium battery down to -25C. With, I have read, 7% degradation in power storage. Lead on the other hand can not be discharged at -25 (Cut off is around -18). And, while you can discharge lead below 0 the capacity has dropped by 50%.
Another advantage of lithium is that it can be left, partially discharged, for up to a year without problem. This is ideal for occasional use. You don't have to leave your panels exposed to the "elements." You can tuck them safely inside and stop charging until you return in the spring.
Not charging lead is another quick way to kill them.
And if you want to take your lithium battery home. Why it weighs 1/3 (or less) of your lead battery.
I kept my lead acid battery pack around 10C even in the winter, so i didn't lose capacity.
The one proviso with lithium is they must be above 0, and preferably above 5C to avoid plating the anode during charging. So you can get to the camp/cottage. Turn on the power, but need to warm up your battery(s) before charging.
The debate here needs to be lifepo4 lithium or NMC. Ye olde solar has come a long way. Good inverters have 10 year continuous use lifespans. Batteries (lithium) are up to 6500 cycles. 18 years f/t (full time). So decades of occasional use.
I'm really trying to build 25 year f/t systems. Everything is there. We just need a bit better batteries (7 more years) and inverters. Basically you're looking at 2 inverters per 25 year period. Of course, the new solar controllers are amazing.
Sticking with the horse and buggy tech does no one any favours. And it sticks in my craw.
So let's talk about how to manage lithium. I've done an extensive post on repurposing chevy volt (LG Chem) cells for off grid use. My voyage there was so successful I have now helped others build (and have built for others) dozens of installations.
You can read my posts here. Or at my blog. creektreat.ca
Lithium rules!
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KelVarnsen
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# Posted: 9 Apr 2017 09:43 - Edited by: KelVarnsen
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Thanks for the detailed info creeky. I really appreciate it. I haven't started doing any calculations yet, but I'm wondering if you could recommend any lithium battery packs/suppliers for a pretty small installation. My cabin is 360 sq. feet. I'm going to run some LED lighting, charge some tablets/phones, a CPAP each night, and a small fan for my composting toilet.
FYI, I am in Ontario if you want to build me one!
I've attached a picture of my thermometer from a trip last winter (after it had warmed up a couple of degrees). Hence my concern about freezing.
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tichalet
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# Posted: 9 Apr 2017 13:37
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Creeky, you might be interested in this since you are into emerging tech. I just read a piece in today's Sunday Review at the New York Times on one of the co-inventors of lithium-ion batteries in 1980 - a prof at UT Austin who is 94 years old!
He's not thrilled with the limitations of his previous invention & has just applied for a patent for a new type of solid state battery that replaces the liquid electrolytes with a new kind of glass developed by a Portuguese physicist who joined his team in TX.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/07/opinion/sunday/to-be-a-genius-think-like-a-94-year -old.html?emc=edit_nn_20170409&nl=morning-briefing&nlid=55862694&te=1&_r=1
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creeky
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# Posted: 9 Apr 2017 22:55
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Happy to build you one kelvarnsen. You can reach me through the aforementioned mentioned blog. I started a solar company bobolinksolar dot Com in february to help promote solar in ontario.
Tichalet. I have seen the lithium glass battery. The woman, Dr Braga, who made the discovery is quite the talent.
They still have cathode issues I understand. But energy storage is on fire. 
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NorthRick
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# Posted: 10 Apr 2017 16:54
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KelVarnsen, I think for your situation, flooded lead acid is still a good option. Keep them connected to the solar panels via a charge controller and they will sit there happy as clams while you aren't there. They are cheaper, easier to find, and lithium is still evolving. We have a small system in our weekend cabin and it has been functioning just fine for over 6 years. Located in interior Alaska, so it has seen temperatures like your thermometer photo.
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KelVarnsen
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# Posted: 10 Apr 2017 18:53
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Thanks for the input Rick and creeky. I'll see how things shape up over the next 12 months. Hopefully by this time next year I'll be ready for my install. Maybe there will be global wireless energy transmission or pixie dust fuelled batteries by then.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 10 Apr 2017 23:19
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The cost of pixie dust hasn't come down enough quite yet to make it feasible, but they're talking about a new pixie dust mine in central Borneo which may yield enough to make it work.
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KelVarnsen
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# Posted: 12 Apr 2017 07:56
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Your comment made me laugh right out loud bldginsp. Thanks for the laugh.
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Kamn
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# Posted: 12 Apr 2017 08:29
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Creeky,
we will be in touch since my wife and I are going to be powering our cabin (future home) with Solar
And I'm in Ontario as well
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