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rockies
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# Posted: 11 Apr 2016 18:22
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http://www.eheat.com/
Saw this in a self sufficiency magazine.
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KSalzwedel
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# Posted: 19 Apr 2016 03:34
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Looks like this would be a nice supplemental heat for a bathroom, or bedroom! Nice find.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 19 Apr 2016 07:29
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Do understand that all electric resistance heaters produce exactly the same heat output per watt of electrical input. This produces exactly as much heat as the equivalent wattage of light bulbs strung together. Quartz, oil filled, amish electric boxes, perpetual heating machines... identical heat out per watt consumed.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 19 Apr 2016 08:41
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Slick marketing doesn't get around the fact that electric heaters are the most expensive way to heat. "Envi" ??? Environmentally positive? Well, yes, unless your electricity is produced by burning coal. They claim it will save you 50% on your heating bills- nonsense. Just marketing.
That said, I agree with KSalzwedel that small electric heaters like this can be useful as occasional supplemental use in a bathroom, but if you relied on it to heat your bedroom your electric bill would definitely show it.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 19 Apr 2016 17:26
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Agree with Don and bldginsp but also, in so doing, it rather blows my mind that every cabin I've looked at thus far has electric baseboard heat (and a wood or pellet stove). The square-footage of the cabins is between 620 and 920 sq. ft. and they're either one- or two-bedroom cabins.
My guess is that they primarily use wood or pellets as the heat source and the electric is supplementary. These cabins are all on-grid so no worries in the solar department. I would be doing a solar grid-tie, though, and that electric heat would NOT be used unless it was an emergency. Or, perhaps, to take the chill off for a half-hour if it was super-cold, until I got the stove going.
In that vein, I guess one or two of these heaters would be a vast improvement over electric baseboard. But a couple of months ago, I linked to a few different brands that I think were lower wattage radiant panels. Amazon has a bunch of different ones.
(For some areas, gas heat isn't a viable option unless you have something that can operate well on barbecue-size tanks and can take them for filling yourself nearby. The cost of delivery from some companies is high with all of the fees and contract charges and if you're in a remote location that gets a lot of snow, you're far from distributors, and the roads are challenging, then you'll have a problem getting deliveries in the winter.)
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Don_P
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# Posted: 19 Apr 2016 18:44
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I don't see the vast improvement over electric baseboard... it's the same thing. I do like the fan powered electric heater in our bathroom, a quick heat up of a small room and a hot shower after a bone chilling day while the woodstove is kicking up.
The reason most part time cabins get electric baseboard is for final inspection and insurance, basically an automatic form of heat protecting the plumbing. A K1 direct vent Monitor heater worked for us in that regard, similar to the Toyo's now. We keep it on minimum and do use it some, it does run daily in the winter. We go through about 80 gallons per winter in 1500sf and heat primarily with wood. The 250 gallon tank needs a refill this year and should be good for another 3.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 19 Apr 2016 19:54
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Quoting: Julie2Oregon In that vein, I guess one or two of these heaters would be a vast improvement over electric baseboard.
As far as heating there is no difference. Push the same number of watts through either electric heater or any other electric resistance heater and you get the same amount of heat. There is no magic electric heater unless you want to count a heat pump. But those are completely different and much more money, but can also offer cooling.
The only real difference between the ubiquitous electric baseboard heater and that wall mounted panel is the appearance. Yes, the wall panel is constructed differently and might be safer with small children crawling about. But the amount of heat that goes into the room is the same.
As Don_P mentioned the reason you find baseboard electric in many cabins is to satisfy the code heating requirements as well as the requirements of insurance companies.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 19 Apr 2016 20:34
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Ah, code and insurance! I obviously didn't think of that! Thanks, Don_P and MtnDon!
It's very curious to me why, out of the literally several dozen properties I've looked at, only one used gas for heating. I've looked at remote properties, in-town properties on the outskirts on quarter-acre parcels, and properties out in the 'burbs on half- or 1-acre parcels. A few had oil burners but the rest were wood/electric combos. There's got to be a reason.
Not trying to go off-topic.  I think it speaks to having to know the area and asking a lot of questions about availability, cost, and service among the various types of energy sources and fuel providers. From what I've seen of the electric rates in that area, they're not bad at all. A bit lower than what I'm paying in Texas, go figure. And solar is increasingly popular. There's a really good solar contractor there. One of the remote properties I'm looking at was using a several kwh system. I need to find out if that's included or if the owner took it/is taking it with him.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 19 Apr 2016 21:46 - Edited by: MtnDon
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Baseboard heaters are dirt cheap compared to propane and NG. Install anywhere, no pipes, no vents, just wire. Hard to beat for parts and labor to install. Maybe not cheap to operate full time.
If you are going to be grid connected you might want to think more about whether or not grid tie solar makes any good long term sense. I believe we may see more reevaluating being done about meter fees and excess generation pricing over the next few years. Much like what the PUC did in Nevada a few months ago.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 19 Apr 2016 23:03
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I fear grid tied solar, which is a good thing, would take societal subsidy or penalty for non renewable to make it work. I don't like that side of the equation.
The trick is to figure out how to grid tie those solar panels without penalizing the solar homeowner or the utility, both of whom are helping harden up everyone's power supply by having diversified power production. Not easy.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 19 Apr 2016 23:22
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Quoting: Don_P without penalizing the solar homeowner or the utility,
Nor penalize the homeowner who does not want to have PV installed on their roof. It's a balancing act that has not yet been figured out.
There are those who argue that the grid tied homeowner is taking advantage of the power grid, using it as an expensive battery but not paying a fair price. Then there are those who argue that homeowner solar installations reduce the amount of generating capacity the POCO needs and therefore should be rewarded. I can see both sides and am not sure what the equitable solution is.
There's a good chance that people who have signed 20 year leases or PPA's may end up with a nasty surprise in a few years time, depending on how the regulators work things out. This year so far we have six new installs on our block of 29 homes; all by the same company. I've read the PPA agreement and from talking with three of the owners I note that 2 of them have a false understanding of what they signed.
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creeky
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# Posted: 20 Apr 2016 11:03
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Grid tie doesn't need more incentives. It's pretty much break even/parity.
Sure, off grid I'm still paying, amortized, about 1.20 (initial investment) to 1.50/kw (fixes, repairs, upgrades). My system is up for new batteries, so add another $6k. But it also has 20 more years to amortize. I'll never hit grid tie costs really. But my grid connection would have been over $50k.*
My "visitor" has a 2.5kw grid tie system. Paid about double what I paid, but I did my own install. She saved on batteries. She has real 'spensive grid tie inverters. Hook up costs. Etc.
Now in 5 years she's sold 15 megawatts. That's about 65 cents a kw. But with 20 years to go on her amortization. Projecting similar numbers. You're looking at around 13 cents a kilowatt.
That's pretty much par with what the electricity price is today.** And her system is about 1/2 the cost, done today. 1/3 the cost if you make some adjustments to labour. And inverters.
Grid tie is at parity. And as pointed out. It hardens and improves the grid.
Once home storage comes it will even further reduce grid overhead. It will be good for our economy that's for sure.
* one cost of electricity when folks look at their electric bill ... you know. I'm only paying .07 a kw. Etc. Is they don't factor in the hook up cost that's built into the mortgage.
** Fuel and electricity from traditional sources are heavily subsidized.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 20 Apr 2016 13:18
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Julie- do you know what electricity costs in your area? In a lot of the northwest it's cheaper because of all the hydroelectric, so elec heat makes more sense.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 20 Apr 2016 19:07
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bldginsp
It's about 10 cents/kwh, I believe. They just changed formulas and such Jan. 1 and my eyes glazed over, lol, but there's a whole bunch of off-setting stuff.
But, crap. I saw that Oregon's going to Smart Meters in a couple of years. I just got done paying for the stupid Smart Meter that was forced on us in Texas (and which malfunctioned on me once, claiming I used 5000 kwh one month, even though my elec company produced 5 yrs. worth of records showing it HAD to be a meter error. I'd never used a third of that number of kwhs ever, even when my son and all of his electronics were living with me. The local regulatory agency said, nope, Smart Meters don't malfunction. Pay the bill. I HATE those things.)
What kills me in TX are the delivery charges. Yikes. I live in a huge energy-producing area but the electricity doesn't stay here. They're producing it to transmit to the metros and we're paying the freight. Deregulation hurt those of us in rural areas. Because of low population density, we don't have the large number of companies competing for our business that the metros do so our rates and terms are higher.
Gosh, has it hurt the poor.  When I helped out with outreach ministry, so much of the requests for assistance was related to electric bills. Deregulation allowed the companies to do as they pleased with a service that is absolutely critical in a crazy-hot climate. The poor are getting robbed by fly-by-night, "pay as you go" electric companies, being charged exorbitant rates and fees for what little they get. They have to buy electric in $25 increments and make the cash "payments" to these shady companies at those check-cashing and title loan places.
Because of that, and because those companies offered NO customer service, it was very difficult for us to help them out because we didn't just hand over cash. I tried to pin one down once and offered to send a check toward a person's account from the church to the company. Took me talking with 3 people before I got an address in Houston. I sent a check, documented everything, and the check/envelope were returned about 10 days later because the company didn't really exist. 
WAY off-topic, I know. But this is a fallout of deregulation. I hope to heck that Oregon never does it. Unless you're in a metro area, it sux. For poor people, it's a disgrace and should be illegal. My heart ached for the people who were affected.
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ShabinNo5
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# Posted: 23 Apr 2016 12:11
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We recently went on-grid, but only heat the Shabin when on-site (wood stove). However we now keep the bathroom heated 24x7 so that we can store beverages, paint, keep the ports-potty from freezing, etc. This wall heater has worked well for us. Holds the room at 50 when away. With the blower it takes only a few minutes to warm the room up to 65 and the floor is warmed up as well.
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