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Martian
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# Posted: 25 Mar 2011 20:00
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All the perimeter piers are set! Only three more to dig! Luckily, the layout had only one pier located on top of a stump, and it didn't take too long to cut out. I probably ruined a chain and bar on the saw, though, cutting through the roots. It was worth it.
Don, when I was admiring my handywork, I got to thinking about how the foundation is going to carry the loads. Here's my thoughts; tell me if my thinking is erroneous. With the double 2X12's (banding) setting on shoulders sawn into the 6X6's (piers) and the floor joists set inside the banding and the walls set over the banding, then all loads, both vertical and horizontal, are tranferred directly to the piers. If I stack the joists on the banding and then build the walls on top of them, then the vertical load is on the pier, but the horizontal (wind) load is on the joists. The joists would be held vertical by blocking, etc, but wouldn't it be stronger to have the structure secured directly to the banding rather than perched on top of it and the joists?
As for the piers moving, that just doesn't enter the picture in this case. I wish you where here to help me dig these holes. Then, you'd understand why I'm not worried, at all, about the piers ever being pushed over. The soil on that hill is a clay loam for about 10" then you hit solid clay. Its a chore to dig, but its really great for holding a pier. The Treehouse is set in basically the same stuff. Its gone through several 80mph wind gust without moving. The new cabin won't have nearly the windage and will be only inches off the ground instead of 9'.
Tom
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 25 Mar 2011 20:54 - Edited by: MtnDon
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Piers, bands, joists...
I don't believe there is any difference in what forces are going to be acting on the pier. If the joists are securely attached to the band beams, either on top or inset between them all forces will be transmitted to the piers. (proper connection means brackets like H-1 or H-2.5 Simpson, not just toe-nailing.) All the horizontal force has to be transferred to the pier. If there was a difference in what the joists were pushing sideways and what the pier was receiving, that would mean something was moving; that would soon be followed by something falling down... joist sliding off the beam, for example. Properly connected, nothing moves and all forces on the joists are transferred to the piers.
I would have to get an opinion from a PE I correspond with occasionally on something though.
Engineers, don't really like that sawn out shoulder method as much as placing a beam on top of the pier. That is now the only approved method for deck construction but I am not sure it applies to a whole house foundation. A notch or cut like that is known as a reentrant corner. With sufficient side force there is the danger of the pier splitting at the cut out corner. A 6x6 dimensional pier cut out to accept a doubled 2x is much like bolting the 2x's to a 2.5x6 pier. The 3 inch shelf supports the weight is is better than just side bolting the 2x's to a pier. When the sideways force is from the cut side towards the uncut part the 2x's are bolted to there is danger of a split starting at the corner and following the grain slope.
Why I want to check is I am extrapolating that from previous discussions we've had about notching. Some builders use notches in wall studs to attach a 2x ledger for a joist floor that is inset lower than the wall top plate; what's referred to as a knee wall. (like a 10 ft stud and ledger at 8 feet) Notches like that give PE's the willies because of the rafter forces being exerted horizontally on the top of the wall. The 2x6 wall stud is likely to act as less than a 2x4 because the the reentrant corner. In that case wood labeled as stud grade or standard grade is grossly overloaded as those grades to not permit as much side loading as #2 or better grades.
It may take a few days to get an opinion on that.
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Martian
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# Posted: 26 Mar 2011 08:56
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I totally agree that notching a 2X4 into the studs will, most likely, weaken the wall; especially if the notch is cut too large or too deep. But, the theory of having a 6X6 split at the cutout would only apply if each pier is considered as an individual. When considered in the total pier arrangement, all horizontal loads are transmitted across the structure and offset by additional material in the opposing pier. When using any type of bracket sitting on top of a pier, the strength of the unit is determined by the fasteners used to connect the two parts. In my mind, 2X6 inches of solid wood beats any mechanical connection of bracket to wood. Shearing of the pier at the notch would be extremely difficult. If the loads applied to the structure ever get to the point of shearing the pier at the cutline, I don't want to be around and will build my next cabin underground!:)
Tom
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Martian
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# Posted: 2 Apr 2011 20:53 - Edited by: Martian
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Its been a productive week both at work and on the cabin. The floor grid is in place.
I need to scab on the outer band board, then the subfloor can go down; 3/4 T&G plywood. The joist are screwed to the banding with two 1/4X3" flanged torx screws and then the joist hangers were nailed in place. All the blocking is screwed with 3" #9 torxs. The second banding board will hide all the screw heads.
The ranchers were burning the hills today. Its a ritual that takes place each Spring. They do it to clear the way for the new grasses. In about two weeks, the hills will be a beautiful green. Its really a sight to watch the fires top the ridgelines at night. Sometimes the fires will stretch for miles as just a thin ribbon of flame, but today, all we saw was the smoke.
Tom
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Martian
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# Posted: 4 Apr 2011 19:10
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Well, I've got the floor finished. No pics, though. The wall package is showing up tomorrow; so I can start framing in the walls.
The lumber yard called with the pricing on the doors and windows. Looks like that phase is going to cost me around $1400, but the wall package was only $700. I've budgeted $1000 for each phase broken down to: floor, walls, ceiling and roof, siding, windows/doors, and mechanical. The floor came in on budget, but the mechanicals, which includes plumbing, might be a little low.
Has anyone used the fiberglass septic tanks? I haven't decide if I'm going to compost or flush, yet. I'm a woodworker so there's plenty of saw dust and planer shavings to use. But, the convenience of flushing is really attactive. It'll probably boil down to cost. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.
Tom
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turkeyhunter
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# Posted: 5 Apr 2011 21:22 - Edited by: turkeyhunter
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4 inch PVC line, 3 sections of infiltrator , and No tank and not much money.....works GREAT,.,,,,,,,,,,,,http://www.thenaturalhome.com/infiltrator.htm
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Martian
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# Posted: 5 Apr 2011 21:53
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Thanks. I'll check that out.
Here's some picks of the progress. The doors and windows have been ordered and the framing package arrived today. I started screwing the corners together, and tomorrow the headers, cripples, and window sills will get prefabbed. If the weather, and this old body, hold out, I should be able to finish the framing and sheathing by Sunday evening. I'm able to get in 2-3 hours a day after work.
The empty space is where the porch will be inset.
Tom
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turkeyhunter
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# Posted: 6 Apr 2011 10:06
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looks GREAT!!!!!! Lot of hard work for sure.....
BTW on the supplies for your septic line, most plumbing supply places sell the infiltrator......
my equiptment guy is installing mine at the new cabin for 300 dollars labor.........( w/rubber cleated trackhoe)
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Martian
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# Posted: 6 Apr 2011 13:23
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I've read about these, but I thought a tank is still needed. Are you going without a tank?
Tom
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Martian
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# Posted: 7 Apr 2011 19:43
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Got the longest wall framed, sheathed, and stood up.
Tom
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turkeyhunter
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# Posted: 7 Apr 2011 21:02
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Quoting: Martian Are you going without a tank?
no tank...........
also you are working like a DOG!!!!!!.....looks GREAT!!!!
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Martian
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# Posted: 7 Apr 2011 22:00
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Thanks.
You obviously don't know my dogs!:).......... All they do is keep me company.
No tank, huh? What keeps the effluent from just building up at the end of the pipe and blocking it? The website examples all seem to include a tank.
Tom
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Martian
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# Posted: 8 Apr 2011 23:02
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Another productive day.
We put up the South wall.
Took a break.
Then put up the East wall.
Time to clean up.
The hardworking dogs.
Tom
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Martian
Member
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# Posted: 9 Apr 2011 21:32
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All the walls are standing!
I'm tired!
Tom
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turkeyhunter
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# Posted: 9 Apr 2011 22:37
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looks great---you had a good work day for sure.........
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 12 Apr 2011 07:14
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It been a good two days.
The porch is framed.
The porch post is a local hardwood known for its longevity. There are fence post made from it standing around here that have been in the ground for over 75 years. This piece was sawn over 30 years ago. The fasteners had to be pre-drilled.
After finishing the porch, the ceiling joists were put up.
After setting the joists, I took some time to look around and check out the views.
View out the kitchen window. Looking South.
Loking West from the living room.
Thru the patio door.
From the porch.
Next phase is to get the roof framed.
Tom
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turkeyhunter
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# Posted: 12 Apr 2011 07:43
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looks GREAT!!!!...........lots oif lumber in that cabin!!!!
on the porch post in that Osage???hedgeapple??? bodark???
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 12 Apr 2011 19:57
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Its bodark, or hedge as its known around here.
All the rafters are cut and half are set
Turkeyhunter, on my way out this morning there must of been 40 turkeys just off the road. I thought of you.
Tom
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 12 Apr 2011 19:57
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Its bodark, or hedge as its known around here.
All the rafters are cut and half are set
Turkeyhunter, on my way out this morning there must of been 40 turkeys just off the road. I thought of you.
Tom
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Martian
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# Posted: 12 Apr 2011 20:01
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I don't know how thast stuff got posted as "anonymous". Sorry for any confusion.
Tom
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turkeyhunter
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# Posted: 12 Apr 2011 21:56 - Edited by: turkeyhunter
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Quoting: Anonymous Turkeyhunter, on my way out this morning there must of been 40 turkeys just off the road. I thought of you. Tom
have hammer, nail apron and shotgun :-) ..........ps taking 2 of my buds to the airport at 6am, they are flying to Kansas to turkey hunt through Sunday
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Martian
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# Posted: 13 Apr 2011 21:26 - Edited by: Martian
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Its all screwed together! Better bring your impact driver.:)
Finished setting the rafters and started filling in the gable ends.
I've decided to use 1X4 purlings to avoid hauling OSB up onto the roof . Besides, they'll be easier to walk when putting on the metal. I'm for anything that is easier at this point!
Tom
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 13 Apr 2011 22:20
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Quoting: Martian Its all screwed together!
May I ask, when you say that, just what parts are you meaning? What kind of screws?
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Martian
Member
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# Posted: 14 Apr 2011 07:52 - Edited by: Martian
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All of it! The framing is screwed with #10 4" torx, the banding is screwed with 5/16ths 6" flanged torx screws, and the sheathing is screwed with 2" #8 torx. The bottom plate is screwed to the banding with the 6" screws every three feet and on both sides of each opening
So far, there is over 50lbs of screws holding everything together. The only nails used are holding the joist hangers, but there are also three #10's into the end of each joist.
Tom
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smitty
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# Posted: 14 Apr 2011 08:38
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That is going to be one solid cabin.
She'll still be standing long after we are all gone..
Looks great!
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 14 Apr 2011 10:18
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Are they "deck" screws or screws sold for structural connections?
The oh-so-common deck screws are hardened to make their head sockets less susceptible to tear out while driving them with power tools. The hardening is throughout the screw and makes the shafts brittle. A nail that is overstressed will slowly bend. A hardened deck screw will suddenly snap. That is why no building code recognizes screws as framing fasteners.
There are structural rated screws available, though more costly. The fasteners in most joints in basic framing are mostly subject to shear forces so the clamping ability of a screw is not required.
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Martian
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# Posted: 14 Apr 2011 19:17 - Edited by: Martian
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I'm using construction grade SKF screws. They're costing me about $8/lb. The few that have run thru are bent over; they didn't break. If you look at my first post, you'll see the cabin I built 11 years ago. Its all screwed together, too, and has withstood 80mph winds against a much larger surface perched 9' in the air. Over the last 5 years, I've built numerous structures using these screws; they're not going anywhere, either. I like the screws because its easier to attain perfection; if you hit a grain and the board jumps, you just back out the screw and move it. Nails..not so easy. Besides, running in screws is easier on my old body than swinging a hammer all day. Whether the strength of these screws is required for my little structure, or not, is not a consideration. When it comes to building, my motto is, "Why just build when you can over-build!"
I do appreciate your concern, but rest easy.
Tom
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 14 Apr 2011 20:00
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That's great then. I have a local fastener supplier that sells a similar brand. I have seen a lot of deck screws used where they should not be and that can only lead to problems. Others can benefit from the knowledge or use nails.
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Martian
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# Posted: 15 Apr 2011 08:05
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The gable ends are sheathed and the rafter tails cut.
The metal roofing should be here next week. In the meantime, I've got to get caught up on all the things I've let slide while trying to get the cabin dried in.
Tom
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turkeyhunter
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# Posted: 15 Apr 2011 21:41
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looks great----what color metal roof??????
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