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Ken Robbins
Member
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# Posted: 29 Jul 2017 07:56pm
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Hi All,
Looking for reports from those who have used ladders for loft access in lieu of stairs. Thinking about the space savings of the ladder compared to a real staircase in our 20 X 30 project for the loft.
The loft will be more of a second story and I have a feeling I will regret the ladder. We are building a size that many find luxurious but space will still be at a premium. Winter use is in the plan occasionally and when cabin bound by weather the stairs may get more use than one would think.
Any experiences?
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paulz
Member
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# Posted: 29 Jul 2017 09:52pm
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I have a ladder on the wall. 12x25 with no room to spare. One thing that helps is having a small shelf next to the ladder just below the loft to set things on while you climb down, then grab it from ground level. Or just chuck the stuff onto the bed. 
My loft is just storage, stairs would be a waste of space. If I slept there it might get old.
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 30 Jul 2017 08:55am
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I have a storage loft accessed by ladder and it can be a PITA when trying to take something up / down if it's a bigger or heavier item. Debating some kind of winch / dumb waiter kind of affair but not sure.
Have pondered stairs of some sort & that is still in the back of my mind, was looking at some Tiny Houses and the ideas for stairs applied in there where they max out every inch of space and some of the solutions are quite ingenious in that regard. We aren't talking "Code Stairs" at 36" wide with code risers & tread depth. Some are even shelving units that act as stairs.
Could that be a possibility for you ? Making a Shelving / Storage system that also doubles as stairs. May be worth considering and looking at how, many Tiny House folks have addressed the issue.
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Bret
Member
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# Posted: 30 Jul 2017 01:31pm
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How about "ship stairs' or alternate tread stairs?
I made some for our cabin and while that can take some getting used to, they are so much better in all ways then a ladder.
I've included some pictures. The cabin is 16x20
Bret
Ship stairs
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Ship stairs
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Ship stairs
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Eddy G
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# Posted: 31 Jul 2017 11:16am - Edited by: Eddy G
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Bret, I'm curious as to what advantage you found with the off set pattern treads...
We have something similar where I work and hate the thing..
In fact anyone that's ever gone up or down it asks the same question...WHY?...why not just use a full tread?....
It was explained to me that ours is a safety method for firefighters but even they seemed to dislike it...
You're set looks really nice and well crafted, like I said I'm just curious as to why
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Cowracer
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# Posted: 31 Jul 2017 12:11pm
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Quoting: Eddy G Bret, I'm curious as to what advantage you found with the off set pattern treads...
You can put them on a much steeper "slope" than a normal set of stairs, close to the angle a ladder has. They take up much less floor space because of that.
I have regular stairs, very close to standard rise, but I gave up valuable floor space on the bottom floor to get them. To me it was worth it, but I looked long and hard at the alternating "Ship stairs"
Tim
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 31 Jul 2017 02:09pm
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I gave up on lofts years ago, especially lofts that are meant to be used on a more or less daily basis. They are simply a PITA if a ladder is used and yes, stairs use a disproportionate amount of space in a small structure. I just build bigger on one floor. The loft is always too hot when the main floor is just about right.
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Thelar
Member
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# Posted: 31 Jul 2017 03:01pm - Edited by: Thelar
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We bought our camp almost ten years ago. It is 20x36. It had a loft ladder. I pretty much used it for storage the first couple years. I finally added 30' extra to one side of the loft and added stairs. Ever since they are used every time we go to camp. It did take up some space, but I ended up with storage space under the stairs. One of the best improvements we have made.
loft ladder
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building overhang
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finished overhang
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stairs
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1tentman
Member
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# Posted: 31 Jul 2017 03:22pm - Edited by: 1tentman
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Have you thought about a spiral stairs, they don't take up much room. We have one in our cabin, it is a 20x40 with loft. I made a place to hang coats and hats under it.
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Bret
Member
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# Posted: 31 Jul 2017 04:01pm
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Using the ship stairs allows you to walk up and down naturally as you would any regular set of stairs.
Coming down would be extremely hard if the treads were full depth all the way across. You would have a very small landing space and would have to turn your foot sideways to land. Dangerous!
Going up wouldn't be as bad, but you wouldn't be able to lift your leg naturally. You would have to swing it out to avoid the step above.
The stairs have worked great with many using them.
Yes, they are steeper, but save on space and much easier to use than a ladder.
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Cabingirl
Member
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# Posted: 3 Aug 2017 09:22pm
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This is my situation. My ladder can be removed and hung on the wall. Hope you can see it.
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razmichael
Member
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# Posted: 4 Aug 2017 10:14am - Edited by: razmichael
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Very happy with our alternating tread ladder. Different design than Bret's but same space saving advantages. No one has yet had any issues getting used to it and we go down facing either way. Couple of photos (one early in the build, the second with railings added).
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Ken Robbins
Member
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# Posted: 6 Aug 2017 03:35pm
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Thanks to you all,
I am inclined to build a test set of alternating treads for my shop mezzanine here at home. They will be much better than the extension ladder that has been there and I can see if I am trainable to use them.
I really like to see the craftsmanship in the cabin community, you all do nice work. Since the cabin is in AK, freight makes a spiral pretty pricy and I plan to have an arctic entry for coats and such so I can't really make much use of the space.
The comments about getting up ladders with stuff confirms my worry that I would regret the ladder more than the lost floor area. Not getting any younger makes me lean to stairs but the ships ladder might be workable.
Thanks again,
Ken
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neckless
Member
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# Posted: 10 Aug 2017 09:16am
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wow i really like those ship stairs... i have buildt a lot of steel stairs never see those ship stairs before.... a lot better than a ladder...
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uberjason
Member
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# Posted: 4 Nov 2017 08:56am
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How about a cheaper spiral staircase? My 20x20 cabin has a ladder to the loft and my old bones aren't loving the ladder. Anyone have any experience with spiral staircase kits?
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drb777
Member
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# Posted: 8 Nov 2017 07:46pm - Edited by: drb777
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I went the "cheaper spiral staircase" route. 'Purchased some plans and built my own.
Even compact design spiral's tend to feel a bit obtrusive in a small cabin.
Also available as a DIY assembly kit.
compact spiral stairs
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spiral setting
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littlesalmon4
Member
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# Posted: 9 Nov 2017 02:07pm
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here is our stair solution in our 20x20. Can't imagine a ladder after a few cocktails
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Rys
Member
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# Posted: 10 Nov 2017 12:48pm - Edited by: Rys
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Littlesalmon4,
Do you have a drawing of these with measurements? I think they're perfect!
Also: what is the headroom under the high end?
Thanks!
Rys
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littlesalmon4
Member
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# Posted: 14 Nov 2017 06:36pm
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don't have any drawings. Height is 7' 6" to the bottom of the beam.
I could take more measurements next time I go up.
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paulz
Member
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2021 10:14pm
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I want to make some stairs that sit vertical against my loft front, then slide outward at the bottom with notches at the top to catch the loft front edge. I have some 2x8 and 2x10.
Are hands free stairs normally no steeper than 45 degrees? I don't have that much room. Is there a chart or rule of thumb for inline and stair spacing?
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2021 11:35pm
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The run ( tread) and the rise ( kick ) should add up to about 17 in.
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Brettny
Member
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# Posted: 30 Apr 2021 06:10am
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Paul I have a stair case in my shed (yes stairs in a a shed) that the whole stair case rises 9' and runs 2ft. I can just barely walk it with no hands and used 2x6 for treads with no backs. If I didnt have major space constraints i would make the run longer.
Another thing you can do is use your 2x10 for stringers but dont cut notches for the treads and put the bottom tread at the front and top at the back.
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paulz
Member
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# Posted: 30 Apr 2021 07:20am - Edited by: paulz
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Thanks guys. My loft is at 7.5'. The run could be as long as I want but the stairs will block the side door when in use, which is why they need to be stored slid up vertically. I'm thinking maybe a 2-3 foot run, any more than that might strain the stringers and the loft, as well as my back.
Also been thinking about the tread notches, I don't have a dado blade. What alternative to notches are there that don't look too armature? I guess I could hog them out with a 4" circular saw or a router.
Cabin is starting to look pretty civilized inside, time to ditch the aluminum ladder. Loft is just storage.
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 30 Apr 2021 09:30am
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Just storage; ladder in the shed and retrieved as needed. Ive got way too much to do to be building stairs for occasional use.
If you are thinking carrying stuff up/down stairs that is too awkward for a ladder put in a pulley and make a simple lift?
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mj1angier
Member
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# Posted: 30 Apr 2021 09:43am
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Something like this ladder?
https://www.michigan-sportsman.com/threads/want-to-buy-or-build-a-loft-ladder-like-th is.548025/
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 30 Apr 2021 09:54am
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If you are expecting to walk up and down these stairs in a more or less normal manner then the stairs should be configured with a normal geometry. Especially if boxes or whatever are to be moved up and down for storage.
Just is pretty much bang on. The general rule is 7-11 (a 7 inch rise and 11 inch run). More exactly, no more than 7 3/4 inches for the riser (vertical) and a minimum of 10 inches for the tread (horizontal or step).
Anything much different raises the risk of an accident. Nobody needs a fall on stairs or a ladder, especially us older folks. FWIW, in general I believe that using a ladder to access a storage space is something to avoid. Same thing for steep stairs.
Move the door to make safe stairs or build real stairs outside or build a ground level storage unit.
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paulz
Member
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# Posted: 30 Apr 2021 07:20pm
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Oh man, those are beautiful! Just when I was feeling good about my interior work.. Yeah, something like that..thanks mj, though mine won't look quite, er nearly, that nice.
So last night I was perusing Craigslist looking at staircases and came across this, which I bought on the way home today for $20. Never been installed but unfortunately stored outside. Everything but the top plywood is solid though. I have no idea how I could incorporate them into my situation but for 20 bucks it's worth checking. Think I'd still prefer my stair/ladder idea, since it really wouldn't be in the way when vertical.
I don't need to carry anything with me when I go up or down, it's low enough that I have been tossing things up and down for the last 5 years. Our bed is directly in front down below, makes a perfect landing pad for items I pitch down.
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Aklogcabin
Member
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# Posted: 1 May 2021 07:56am
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We have a set of stairs made from 2x6s. Probably near 3' run on a 8' rise. Not too bad. What if you put a sliding bolt lock on the bottom, inside of the stringer. When steps are out drop the bolt into a small hole in the floor to keep them from kicking out.
I'm going to build a lift powered by a 12v winch. My beautiful wife has foot problems.
Good luck man
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paulz
Member
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# Posted: 1 May 2021 09:08am
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Thanks Ak. Yes, strapping at the bottom would work too. A lift, interesting to me as well..
My wife, who is wheelchair bound as you probably know, has been itching to get up in the loft since I 'remodeled' (finally used all the insulation and building materials that were up there) and put up some bamboo deck furniture from the storage shed.
Out king size bed takes up a lot of room in a 12x25 cabin, sleeping up in the loft would free up that space but she would need a large platform, not just a standing lift. No room for that, and no quick way out in a emergency. For a standing lift I can visualize a simple winch and a track with a foot platform. Let us know what you come up with.
Here's my loft as of yesterday. I did put a dresser filled with linen and some coats up there so will need to get to those occasionally.
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Aklogcabin
Member
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# Posted: 2 May 2021 07:48am
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Paulz. My thoughts on a lift. Basically a chair lift because my beautiful wife also has foot issues. For a track, I would use 1" black steel pipe. Fastened in place with a flange at bottom go 10' up 90 degree angle 3" nipple to flange. 2 ea. 2' apart or so .
Weld up a frame using 1-1/2" angle iron . Like a L with a support gusset angled to make a triangle. Make a seat so she could back into it on to the platform/ seat. Use 1-1/4" pipe 4ea on each corner on back of platform frame to slide up n down over the 1" pipe. Use a 12v winch mounted up top to go up n down. Should only take up a 2'x3' floor space or so.
I could draw it up if needed hopefully you can picture it . Maybe someone else can. If I explained it clearly.
I enjoy having twice as much floor space with a full loft. I hear folks who complain about them. Works great for us. And having our beds which take up a lot of space up there gives us plenty of room downstairs. And usually my beautiful wife only goes up n down them once a day anyhow. She doesn't find that too difficult.
Hey good luck man. Maybe you can get yours built first n give me some tips .
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