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Kev
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# Posted: 2 Sep 2015 12:06am
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In April 2014 the wife and I decided to sell out house and move to the family property. There is a old deer camp cabin on the property that my father in law build close to 30 years ago. Its been sitting for the past 8 years rotting away, so we decided to fix it up and move into it. The first set of pictures show what it looked like before we started cleaning it and repair.
As you can see It is in pretty rough condition. We forgot to take pictures of one of the worst parts. Up on the upper roof there was a spot that was probably 4ft x 4ft that had rotted and start to become a hole. also whats not pictured is theres another door that the subfloor by it was rotten as well as the outside 2x12 under it.
I work out of town for the railroad, So I work 6 weeks and off for 2. So the rebuild will take probably another 9 months (hopefully)
First thing we did was sit down and figure out how we wanted to do the floor plan. One of the main things we wanted to do was keep the stair's to the loft the same way as they are now.
One of the things that has changed since we drew up the plans - where we originally going to have a traditional hot water heater under the stairs, but now we are doing a tankless heater in the same spot. Also, there is a loft that is over the bedroom and bathroom.
So first thing we did was repair and replace the upper roof. We ended up replacing half of the decking on both sides and put on galvilume metal roof.
As you can see in the pictures is that it snowed on us in the middle of repairing it. Which it hardly ever snows in Arkansas. One thing that really sucked is the upper roof is a 12/12 pitch. So it sucked working up there lol. Luckily we had a cherry picker that we could use.
Thats all we were able to do during that time I was home. The next time I was home we repaired the lower roof and put the metal roof on it. As well as repair the floor and replaced the back door. We also replaced all the outer 2x12's on that side of the house with treated boards.
One thing I forgot to mention is that while we were in the middle of doing all the repairs this time home we got hammered by Tropical Storm Bill. That made it fun. lol
This last time I was home we took an easy and didnt do too much on the cabin. We replaced the door in the front with a french door as well as replacing the floor that was rotten and the 2x12's. We also framed out the window that will be going next to the door.
So whats on the agenda for next time im home.
- We should be getting power ran up there so I have to get the meter loop installed.
- Ill be installing/replacing the windows on the front. As well as putting up the sheathing and tyvek.
But till then. Have a good one.
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fickle_serendipity
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# Posted: 2 Sep 2015 07:40am
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This is awesome! It will make a perfect family home complete with a history full of old hunting tales  I think it is great that you are repairing this piece of family property and I look forward to seeing your future pics. BTW, I love the stairs-so glad you are leaving them the same!
~~~and hopefully you will have no more weather woes for a while! Best of luck to you and your family. Cute kids!
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Coastal
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# Posted: 2 Sep 2015 09:06am
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Nice work! It seems we are on a similar journey. Lots of work but worth it in the end!
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timcook
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# Posted: 2 Sep 2015 09:21am
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Awesome, this will look really nice when you finish it,
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Kev
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# Posted: 2 Sep 2015 11:31am
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fickle_serendipity
Thank you, we both love the way the stairs are. We have to make them a little skinnier so that we can get a door into the bedroom. But other than that they are staying the same. As for the history of it, one of the guys that used to stay in it wrote "stats" on a section of the dry wall. He only did it for the last 4 years or so it was used. We saved that and I'm going to make a frame to out the dry wall in so we can hangs it up.
Coastal
Yea. I keep telling myself that in the end when I'm sitting on the porch it'll all be worth it.
timcook
It will. We have a saw mill on the property. So we are going to mill all the siding for the outside, inside wall, and ceiling. Its going to be dine out of cedar. As far as the floors, we have some big sweet gum trees that is in a friends property. We are going to cut those down and mill those into 3/4 inch hardwood flooring. We are hoping the wood doesn't warp or cup in the drying process. If it does we will have to figure out plan b LOL.
On a last note. Right now the lower ceiling has support post supporting the ridge beam and has collar ties. . Idk if the ceiling is visable enough in any if the pictures to see the collar ties. But my question is- If we remove those support post will the collar ties be good enough to keep the roof tied together enough?
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Kev
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# Posted: 2 Sep 2015 11:32am
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fickle_serendipity
Thank you, we both love the way the stairs are. We have to make them a little skinnier so that we can get a door into the bedroom. But other than that they are staying the same. As for the history of it, one of the guys that used to stay in it wrote "stats" on a section of the dry wall. He only did it for the last 4 years or so it was used. We saved that and I'm going to make a frame to out the dry wall in so we can hangs it up.
Coastal
Yea. I keep telling myself that in the end when I'm sitting on the porch it'll all be worth it.
timcook
It will. We have a saw mill on the property. So we are going to mill all the siding for the outside, inside wall, and ceiling. Its going to be dine out of cedar. As far as the floors, we have some big sweet gum trees that is in a friends property. We are going to cut those down and mill those into 3/4 inch hardwood flooring. We are hoping the wood doesn't warp or cup in the drying process. If it does we will have to figure out plan b LOL.
On a last note. Right now the lower ceiling has support post supporting the ridge beam and has collar ties. . Idk if the ceiling is visable enough in any if the pictures to see the collar ties. But my question is- If we remove those support post will the collar ties be good enough to keep the roof tied together enough?
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Cisco
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# Posted: 7 Sep 2015 09:59pm
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Huge progress. Looks great! Spray foam it. You'll be glad you did! I'll be checking in for updates
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Don_P
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# Posted: 8 Sep 2015 12:08am - Edited by: Don_P
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Quoting: Kev Right now the lower ceiling has support post supporting the ridge beam and has collar ties. . Idk if the ceiling is visable enough in any if the pictures to see the collar ties. But my question is- If we remove those support post will the collar ties be good enough to keep the roof tied together enough?
The ties that are there are higher than they should be, the forces on the tie to rafter connection climb fast as the tie is raised. That also puts a large bending force on the rafter where the tie connects to it in the middle part of the rafter's span.
First I'd nail the connection between tie and rafter well;
Then, just off the cuff, if you can tolerate lowering the tie to wall height about every third rafter pair, nail in the lower tie, remove the upper, drop a kingpost from the ridge if needed to keep the tie up. You can then make the ties built up with long laps and lots of nails if needed. Nail those truss assemblies off till they're fireproof, you want that lowered tie connection to take the load of 3 rafters rather than 1. Wrap in cedar 1x. The ridge looks like it has some beam capacity between those hardened assemblies and the common rafters between won't see as much load to stress their ties (which is what the post supporting the ridge appears to be doing now) Anyway, one idea.
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Kev
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# Posted: 8 Sep 2015 07:19pm
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Quoting: Don_P First I'd nail the connection between tie and rafter well; Then, just off the cuff, if you can tolerate lowering the tie to wall height about every third rafter pair, nail in the lower tie, remove the upper, drop a kingpost from the ridge if needed to keep the tie up. You can then make the ties built up with long laps and lots of nails if needed. Nail those truss assemblies off till they're fireproof, you want that lowered tie connection to take the load of 3 rafters rather than 1. Wrap in cedar 1x. The ridge looks like it has some beam capacity between those hardened assemblies and the common rafters between won't see as much load to stress their ties (which is what the post supporting the ridge appears to be doing now) Anyway, one idea.
That sounds likes a good idea. What size beam would you say that I'd need for the 20 foot span? Would 8x8 piece of cedar work? I've been looking into raised truss' kinda like the one in the link
https://thepostandbeam.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/modkingpost.jpg?w=595&h=274
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Don_P
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# Posted: 8 Sep 2015 10:38pm
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Bingo. The raised tie connection to the rafter is critical. Putting them down on the wall plate is stronger and easier if you can like it. Just about any wood can take the tension load, but cedar is relatively weak and often poorly formed, pay attention to grading, the end connections are really the tough part. (low connection strengths as well, check the awc.org connections calc, I'll bet it's listed)
A kingpost is sometimes and more correctly called a kingrod truss. The post could be a length of rope. It is dangling from the ridge and holding the long tie beam up by its' middle. So it is a tension element. The struts that spring upwards from the kingpost are compression members and support the rafters at midspan.
There is a neat kingpost truss roof in Syria I believe, from the time of the Crusades. The kingpost doesn't go down to the tie beam (the bottom chord in truss lingo). It only hangs down far enough to provide support for the struts that run back up and halve the rafter span. These guys thoroughly understood what they were doing back then... I sense they were younger than I was when I understood that truss.
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Kev
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# Posted: 8 Sep 2015 11:30pm
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Quoting: Don_P Bingo. The raised tie connection to the rafter is critical. Putting them down on the wall plate is stronger and easier if you can like it. Just about any wood can take the tension load, but cedar is relatively weak and often poorly formed, pay attention to grading, the end connections are really the tough part. (low connection strengths as well, check the awc.org connections calc, I'll bet it's listed)
I went to that website and most of that stuff on the connection calculator is pure jibberish to me lol. The idea of having the beams on top of the top plate and having them exposed is starting to grow on me. We may do that and keep the cathedral ceiling.
Quoting: Don_P There is a neat kingpost truss roof in Syria I believe, from the time of the Crusades. The kingpost doesn't go down to the tie beam (the bottom chord in truss lingo). It only hangs down far enough to provide support for the struts that run back up and halve the rafter span. These guys thoroughly understood what they were doing back then... I sense they were younger than I was when I understood that truss.
That sounds like a pretty cool design. I wanna look it up if you know the name of the building that'll be awesome!
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Don_P
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# Posted: 8 Sep 2015 11:44pm
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I'll try to find a pic of the church roof.
Give me snow load and I can probably dejibberfy some of it.
I dug up some pics of some kingpost trusses I installed in a similar situation. These went under the roof, exposed inside and under the common rafters, the top of the king supported the ridgebeam.
The span here is about 17', 8/12 pitch, struts were unneeded and didn't look good. The heeljoint is well bedded, it will take more tension force than available to shear the tail of the beam (checked, usually if you can resolve the heeljoint force the rest will work) at the bottom of the birdsmouth. Both bluestain and coffee stain on those white pine timbers.
Byr8_11_11_003.jpg
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Byr8_15_11_002.jpg
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Kev
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# Posted: 9 Sep 2015 09:10am
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Would I be able to do something like that and it be able to sit on the topplate? As for snow load, I live in Arkansas and we barely get snow. I think the most we've gotten in the past 5 years was maybe 6 inches. And that only lasted for maybe 2 days before it was melted.
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Gary O
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# Posted: 9 Sep 2015 09:51am
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Man, that's a great project, Kev.
To move into a place while rebuilding takes a special breed.
Good on you.
I have a question.
What's yer plans on the foundation?
The reason I ask is I build with skids on blocks, but this (see the pic below) looks a bit iffy in the long run.
Again, great project.
Cheers to you and fam.
Keep the pics of your progress coming.
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Kev
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# Posted: 9 Sep 2015 09:58am
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Gary, there's not really any plans for the foundation. Its been like that since it was built. What problem do you see with it? If it needs to be fix then ill fix it.
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Gary O
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# Posted: 9 Sep 2015 10:38am
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Well, I'm not really the one to advise, as I build to my own logic, but OwenChristensen, that guy knows skids on blocks, inside and out (check out his threads).
My one thought is that block that I circled seems to be laying on the weak side.
(I use solid pavers, but my builds are much much smaller, more forgiving)
Again, Owen is the man on this.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 9 Sep 2015 10:55am
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Quoting: Gary O My one thought is that block that I circled seems to be laying on the weak side.
yes. blocks are designed to have the cores vertical.
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Kev
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# Posted: 9 Sep 2015 11:18am
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Ohh! I see what y'all are talking about. Other than the block being wrong, is that an acceptable way for the foundation to be? Ill look into Owen tonight when I get off.
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Gary O
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# Posted: 9 Sep 2015 11:26am
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Don carries around a mountain of knowledge.
Owen's threads are chock full of great tips based on many years and many builds.
It would be time well spent.
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Kev
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# Posted: 9 Sep 2015 12:33pm
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Ok, next time I'm home I'll fix that block and go around and check others.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 9 Sep 2015 11:00pm
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Quoting: Kev Would I be able to do something like that and it be able to sit on the topplate?
You could do something like that, it would probably take cutting out a slot in the top plates and then sticking posts in the wall under it when jacked into position.
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Kev
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# Posted: 10 Sep 2015 10:39am
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One of the places I'd have to put a truss will be where a door is. Can I cut out the top plate and just set it ontop of the header for the door?
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Don_P
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# Posted: 10 Sep 2015 06:30pm
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Yes, you'll probably need to remove the header to lift a truss like that up into place, carry it on up through the cutout in the top plates and then reinstall the header and a top plate patch. The header does make a nice repair splice. I'd double jack each end of the header so the jacks don't crush into the bottom of the header under the increased load.
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Kev
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# Posted: 10 Sep 2015 09:36pm
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Quoting: Don_P Yes, you'll probably need to remove the header to lift a truss like that up into place, carry it on up through the cutout in the top plates and then reinstall the header and a top plate patch. The header does make a nice repair splice. I'd double jack each end of the header so the jacks don't crush into the bottom of the header under the increased load.
That sounds like its going to be a pain in the butt to do.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 10 Sep 2015 10:10pm
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Then back up, we chased that rabbit down a hole. What is needed to remove the post is a couple of truss assemblies in the cathedral area. The ties at plate level can be built up of 3 layers of 2x, no cutting out the top plate to get them in. They firmly sandwich a rafter pair and the built up tie is later wrapped in cedar for appearance.
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Kev
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# Posted: 10 Sep 2015 10:55pm
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ok, let me see if im following what your saying - At a rafter pair, I set 3 2x up on the top plate. 1 on one side and 2 on the other or all 3 on the one side? then I tie it all together with either nails or bolts?
Sorry I'm learning as I go.
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Kev
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# Posted: 10 Sep 2015 10:59pm
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Something like that but sitting on the plate?
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Don_P
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# Posted: 11 Sep 2015 06:58am
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Exactly, the tie is as low as possible to reduce stress and the connections are strong enough to take the load of 3 rafter pairs, relieving the high load on the raised ties... which I think is what the post is doing for them.
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Kev
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# Posted: 11 Sep 2015 07:46am
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That sounds easy enough. I'm glad there is a way I can get rid of the post. Because they are just in the way.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 11 Sep 2015 10:00pm - Edited by: Don_P
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Now for the disclaimer... this is all outside of prescriptive code. An engineer would be a good idea.
The drawing you posted has been replaced through the many code cycles with the current prescriptive method of requiring a tie in the lower third of roof height on every rafter pair.
The assumption I am making is that your ridgeboard can act as a short beam between tied rafters that are connected well enough to act as the restraint for that wider section of roof... looking at the heeljoint table it looks like 6 nails in the heeljoint connection if we were restraining a single 2' bay, I'm figuring on a tie every third bay so 18 nails needed at each end of the tie. They are talking about 16 penny commons, if you're shooting pull 24 times minimum... remember you're building up both sides of the rafter. If in that 20' span it starts to sag, it will, you need to drop a kingpost down from the ridge to support the center of the tie span. Although, if you drop a support down from the existing collar tie/rafter connection area to the tie beam below you will create a queenpost truss.
Mission creep the point there is, a heavy truss doesn't need to be built of heavy sections, it can be multiple plies well fastened together.
Heeljoint table (and free version of the 2012 model code) scroll down to table 802.5.1(9)
http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2012/icod_irc_2012_8_par027.htm
Double checking by the math rather than the tables, quick and dirty, I came up with about a ton of tension in those tie connections under a 30 psf snow load. 24@ .128" gun nails.
There is no harm in slightly jacking the ridge and pulling the walls a little snug with a come along before making those connections, a slight preload... it actually wouldn't hurt to pull some strings and see how straight top plates and ridge are now.
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