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creeky
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# Posted: 27 Jan 2016 09:34
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Nice build Steve. How's the electrical working out?
A few nitpicky points to clarify terminology:
1) Steve is missing the radiant layer on the "cool roof" design. The radiant layer pushes the heat back up to the roof and helps keep it out of the attic.
(I'm also not sure of why he had a hole in the bottom of his roof? see "2-1/2" air channel in the eves for airflow")
2) He is also NOT doing a perfect wall, nor a variation thereof. In fact, he is doing an "advanced frame wall."
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 27 Jan 2016 14:17
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2-1/2" slot provides airflow into the roof structure between the tin & the roofguard / wrap. It's a cross between the cool roof concept & vented roof structure. Cool air in and moisture / condensation has an escape route out of the roof sub-structure.
As for the walls, yes Advanced Framing BUT with 2" ISO on the outside as well as 5-1/4" Fibre-EPS-Fibre between studs so I am borrowing from the Perfect Wall concepts.
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creeky
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# Posted: 28 Jan 2016 13:21
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In the texas cool roof (that I love so much), the cool air that rises to the roof ridge comes from under the metal roof edge at the bottom of the roof. Screened roof inserts are available for that purpose. See the picture that I posted on my build. Or the similar picture you posted of the texas cool roof.
Also the reflective barrier is a component of this roof system. The research on this was pretty clear. So anyone building a "cool roof" should be aware of that component.
On the wall construction: the advanced framing links you posted show the outside/inside insulation you talk about. So really you're doing one of the advanced framing walls.
((( My concern with the advanced wall is that the 2" of ISO over the wall sheathing and foam eps/fibre between the studs; is will moisture be trapped between the 2 foam sheets in the sheathing. Particularly in the winter you will have the frost line moving in past the ISO and into the eps foam.
Again, it should be okay. But it'll be interesting to watch.
Hopefully the house wrap will move some of the moisture out as you will have moisture penetration through the EPS. Though that will work both ways. Hmmm. If you look at J. Lstiburek's roof failure in his barn, it was moisture through the EPS being trapped against the waterproofing at the roof top rotting his sheathing that was the problem. Seams were the main problem and you will have lots of seams. )))
I'm not making a big point about this. I mean some things really are 6 of 1, 1/2 dozen of another. And it's important to realize, imho, that sometimes looking at things different ways is valuable in and of itself.
I've often said, a critique is a quantitative or objective analysis; while a criticism is a subjective opinion. I'm using objective analysis here clearly.
and again. great build. thanks for helping me clarify the terminology.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 28 Jan 2016 14:28
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I like the input and thoughts so it's all good 
Yeah the reflective insulation under the tin was my pref but $$ killed that. The roof edges of my tin is tight and so it was simpler to just cut in the slot in and just let the air from the vented soffit flow.
I am concerned about the moisture movement through the layers, if I was using foil faced ISO then I would certainly have an issue as that doesn't breath at all but I'm using the paper faced stuff intended for sublayers in commercial roofs. The paper faced ISO does to some extent. I'm using the woven Typar so that breaths just fine, so I hope this works. Damn Shame they can't make a Reflective Typar Wrap.
I plan on sealing the seams of the ISO sheets with a thin squirch of PL Premium and tape over. That's the best I can do with that I think. Still debating if I need to put another layer of Typar over the ISO. I dunno what I could use as a moisture screen that allows air to pass through
Bigger worry is the "required" 6mm poly vapour barrier because as you noted, the EPS will also be a barrier in effect. Available info is contradictory due to climate variations but to do it with the materials I have is just another monkey wrench into finding the "correct" tested & proven method. Part of the fun of up-cycling, recycling & improvising accordingly
Then with propane cook stove, 2 on-demand water heaters that's a bit more winter moisture etc etc... Woodstove will help that a bit when used.
I'll have to have some sort of HRV or ERV but looking at their power requirements ouch, nothing really for small places under 700 sq feet and the few that are = Mucho Pesos. Been looking at vids and docs on homemade ones, interesting possibilities.
Because I'm doing Board on Board siding, I plan on having 4 boards in different spots which are screwed in place, as opposed to nailed. I'm calling them "inspection boards" so I can pop them off and have a look at how things are doing underneath. Hopefully if anything starts to go funky, I'll catch it and be able to address it... Part of the experimenting fun again eh....
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ColdFlame
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# Posted: 19 Sep 2016 11:28
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Any updates, Steve? I'm hoping you've remained healthy and have been busy chipping away at your proverbial mountain of projects and making some great progress through the spring/summer?
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 19 Sep 2016 14:33
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 Updates... Well I have neglected the thread indeed.
Health = Not so good and has been a bit of touch & go. Prospects are  for long term, so bite it and chew on it to get it done, regardless of ouch factor...
Progress = Yes but very slow & limited, sadly.
Inspections = All have exceeded bldg code & inspectors Very Happy. One has started promoting one of my ideas as he used it on one of his builds & realized the value (Roof Design).
Board on Board with Live Edge Face !
WOWIE ! We did our Test Wall on the "Guinea Pig" Pump-house and are very pleased & learned a few tricks & lessons. Just placed the order for all the Cedar... Even the Strapping is cedar for this. The "test" also verified what dimensions I need.
RESULT: 4x1x10' Strapping, 8x1x8' edged plank (back board), Live Edge 8-10" width, 1" thick. The COST is equivalent to cheapest Vinyl (ugh) so WIN !
** Revised Interior design to include Live Edge baseboard, window & door trims and using cedar Slab panels. Did a quick layup for Maggie and That's the way we go !
* Got a Draw Knife ! Don't waste time with any other tool ! SERIOUSLY
* Using a Bostich Coil Siding Nailer = WIN... Stick nailer = PITA
ROOF UPDATE:
The roof design exceeds expectations... The air draw from the eave channel is significant (will suck in paper) and the vented ridge is working a treat. On average it's deflecting between 5-7 degrees C. One day I was seriously curious ; 37C outside @ 13:00, 25C inside main floor, 28C in loft. Who needs AC ?
~ I was somewhat discouraged from posting here as I didn't need negative tude (off side emails) so I backed off. Pondering an alternative - possibly a simple blog with pics and details & minimal discussion. I like to document in a fashion that addresses the lowest common denominator (assume that a person is learning and has no exp, so attempt to explain fully) which seems to bother some... but it adds value to one & all, as I was indoctrinated eons ago regarding documenting things (that was part of my career).
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Cowracer
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# Posted: 19 Sep 2016 15:11 - Edited by: Cowracer
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Quoting: Steve_S I was somewhat discouraged from posting here as I didn't need negative tude (off side emails) so I backed off.
I hear ya. There are a few people here that view cabin building as some sort of religious quest, and if you don't use the material/techniques that they so dearly love, you are to be vilified.
I have gotten about an even dozen emails from a few different people who have taken it as their cause to point out everything I have done 'wrong' with my build. It seems my insulating is the most taken to task... I have even had one guy tell me that I'm a (and I quote) "poser" because my cabin isn't 'off grid'. Sorry pal. I'm not Amish, and I like my air conditioning and microwave burritos too much
For me, its a place to sleep at my lake lot, not a "lifestyle statement". Sheesh!
Tim
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 19 Sep 2016 18:15
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Agreed Cowracer... I will share my experience and what I have done right & even wrong in the hopes to prevent someone else from repeating an oopsie. Some don't like that or my choices so Tough Nuggets. So far most has been positive result and a couple of pleasant YAY's that exceeding intention.
Below is the Test Wall of the Pump House done with Eastern White Cedar - I'm also grabbing 3000 Lbs Cedar Slab for other assorted projects @ the outrageous price of $0.00 !
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Nate R
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# Posted: 19 Sep 2016 19:42
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Quoting: Steve_S Board on Board with Live Edge Face ! WOWIE ! We did our Test Wall on the "Guinea Pig" Pump-house and are very pleased & learned a few tricks & lessons. Just placed the order for all the Cedar... Even the Strapping is cedar for this. The "test" also verified what dimensions I need. RESULT: 4x1x10' Strapping, 8x1x8' edged plank (back board), Live Edge 8-10" width, 1" thick. The COST is equivalent to cheapest Vinyl (ugh) so WIN !
Hmm, trying to picture how this is going up......
Strapping horizontally, with 1x8s behind the live edge seams? (Similar to Reverse Batten, but on strapping instead of on the sheating?)
Why the strapping?
My wife and I are fans of live edge siding, so always interested in different ways to go about this.
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LoonWhisperer
Member
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# Posted: 19 Sep 2016 21:55
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Keep on keepin' on Steve. This is a great thread.
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 20 Sep 2016 00:08
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Nice to see things going.
Board on batten is quite popular in some parts. And cool roof designs are amazing. I first heard of the idea from a guy building houses for the poor in africa. Built with two laters of tin. So while I promoted the idea here. I'm not the originator.
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 20 Sep 2016 08:39 - Edited by: Steve_S
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@NateR
I'm strapping because I have a layer of ISO on the exterior and want the air-space to prevent humidity & moisture issues.
This is Board on Board - different regions use various terms, so...
The 8" "barn board" is the backing with Live Edge the facing board. Due to the wiggly / waggly nature of the face boards, it's just simpler to go with the wider back plank. They will also be separated with at least 1" of spacing... Lesson Learned on Pump-House was the 6" backboards were insufficient making me have to put the live edge boards tighter together... not quite the effect I wanted.
** Cabin is deep in an evergreen (Pine & Cedar) forest with trees close by...
@Creeky, I'm not entirely sure when I 1st Encountered this design for Cool Roof (it was before I joined this forum but semi-forgot) then remembered... Sure am Happy I did it ! Now I promo it and some are taking it up.... considering the increase in cost is not that significant the pay-back is, in comparison.
My Inspiration Source for the Siding: "The Japanese Forest House"
Video @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32WtDb3c3ws
Web-Page with more details @ http://capefalconkayak.com/japanesehouse.html
Images as reference for late comers viewing the thread:
Below is a Nailing Chart for different wood sidings:
board-siding nailing chart
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types of common wood siding methods
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 20 Sep 2016 09:48 - Edited by: creeky
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No worries. Always good to tip a hat to the source.
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ColdFlame
Member
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# Posted: 20 Sep 2016 10:39 - Edited by: ColdFlame
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@Steve_S Yay - I've been hoping for an update from you for quite some time. I'm glad to hear that things have been progressing, albeit slower than what you'd hoped. Sorry to hear about your ails - let's hope they can be minimized so that you can continue on and stay healthy! At any rate, thanks for the update. Awesome news about the roof, and I *LOVE* the cedar... gorgeous!
Oh, and one edit to make: Agree with everyone else. I love to see your progress and hear about your triumphs and failures. Ignore the naysayers and keep on doing what you do. Those of us that are here to learn appreciate both sides of the journey!
Cheers,
Jeremy
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FishHog
Member
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# Posted: 20 Sep 2016 11:28
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the live edge looks great Steve. Sorry to hear about your heath issues, hope you get things worked out.
appreciate the update, and just ignore the people that have nothing better to do than be negative.
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 21 Sep 2016 08:48
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Steve, you're posting lots of good info. here and elsewhere. Like the siding. I appreciate your posting the idea of corduroy roads in another post. Nope. Not a new idea. But I hadn't thought of it and now I'm putting in two parking pads based on the concept. We're here to help each other, n'est pas?
Btw:
Building science shows the roof ventilation methodology you used. Note the article is dated 2004.
I built a cool roof based on this method in 2011 and improved it in 2012. I used what is now known as the texas cool roof the second time. And find it to be the superior format.
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Nate R
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# Posted: 21 Sep 2016 10:58
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Thanks for the siding info! And I REALLY appreciate the link to that little place that inspired the idea.
Makes sense on the strapping, yeah, with ISO I can see the need.
Also, I appreciate the info you've shared, both ups and downs. Helping me learn!
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 21 Sep 2016 13:06
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@Creekster, indeed the Cool Roof is a WINNER hands down... Interesting as it is also used in Australia but with another name (which I forget at the moment). On mine I did put a full length Vented Ridge Cap with that weird vent-foam stuff that keeps bugs & weather out but let's air move freely. WORKS SUPER !
Pondering if I should maybe get a remote temp probe and stick one in @ peak and one low ! soffit level for random monitoring - just to satisfy my curious nature,
Glad the Corduroy Road method works for ya Creeky... Hope your using Cedar, just remember the drainage layer under it.... That will certainly outlast both of us LOL....
Thanks for the encouragement & support everyone... the few Whack-a-doodles are just that and they can do their own silliness... Rule of Three = exceeded, no further quarter given.
@NateR I may have to cancel the external 2" ISO (walls already R30 internally) as I would have to step up to 6" spikes for the strapping.... Hmmmm 2 Lifts of 2" 4x8 ISO sitting there in my storage tent... Total extra on top of the walls would be 5" with strapping & planks. eeks....
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 26 Sep 2016 23:39
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The fastener store in Ottawa has 6 and 8" screws in stock. They cut a pretty good deal on a box. what I used for my 7" polyiso ruff. And 4' polyiso walls.
I screwed through the strapping into the studs.
Saw some neat walls at the green enrgy open doors tour. 2 foot thick walls. R80 walls. R100+ ruffs.
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ColdFlame
Member
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# Posted: 22 Aug 2017 12:19
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How's your progress been going Steve? I hope you're keeping well.
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 22 Aug 2017 21:31
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Progress is being made but my health issues further complicated things and slowwweeeedddddd me down big time.
Interesting to note IF anyone is interested.... Summer Days @ 35C outside, it's never crossed 25C in cabin and that is no fans, no A/C, just the build working as hoped ! Opening Windows & Doors may raise temp a wee bit but like I said, it's never crossed the 25C temps even on the hottest of days. Last winter, I fired up the woodstove and HOT within an hour and the cabin kept the heat REALLY WELL (ie: -30C outside, +25C inside, no fire for 12-14 hours and only lose 5C temp), haven't fired the Radiant Heat yet...
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Jabberwocky
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2017 09:26
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Hang in there Steve. This stuff definitely takes longer than anticipated sometimes. We started our project last year and I expected to be moved in by last May. Welp, here it is near September and we don't even have drywall up yet LOL.
Still, you have to feel good about successful phases of the project, like your roof for example!
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ColdFlame
Member
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2017 11:25
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Hey Steve,
Sorry to hear about your ongoing health issues. 
I am interested in your temperature findings - that's fantastic. My wife and I are closing on a 33.1 acre parcel in the Kootenays in BC with a house that is mostly finished, but definitely a project. It has a gambrel roof on it which will require re-roofing soon. I'm looking into your work, along with Creeky, and Groingo's RE: Cool Roof style concepts as I think it will be valuable to implement. Plus, I'd like to go tin, and because of the gambrel roof, there's no attic, so I've heard horror stories about how loud they can be without benefit of an attic to absorb the noise. Thus, the extra insulation afforded by the Cool Roof ideas would be beneficial.
Take care... when you're up to it and have time, would love to see more of your progress.
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2017 19:43
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@Jabberwocky... 3 Things are a fact IN LIFE, sh!t happens, Murphy's Laws will ALWAYS apply lack of time... I'm fighting physical deterioration due to slow cancers which are causing other issues, like heart problems through the spring... No Treatment "it is pointless" and likely only have till 2020/2021 at best, so my enjoyment & peaceful sun-setting will be short lived.
This IS my only bucket list item.
NOTE: I never mentioned this prior as it's moot and not something I am interested in talking about BUT maybe it will answer some of the odd questions left lingering through the thread.
To that end, make everyday count and do good, for the future, which is looking less & less pleasant with every days news.
@ColdFlame:
The temps in Cabin & Power/Pump house stay fairly even, although pump house does get on average 2C warmer than cabin. No Denying the comfort level and the well worth experiment that worked out so well. Given that my roof is forest green, it has a tendency to pop a bit more in sunlight, had I gone a light colour that would have been less I am sure.
Should've, Could've, Would've = I should have added CondenStop to the underside of the tin, not for condensation control but for the sound dampening effect, most Tin companies offer it in one form or another. Google it and see the hits... Find your local Tin Banger Co and see if they offer it, I used Ideal Metal Roofing product and they do offer it AND it's not that expensive add on.
There has been significant progress and more daily, averaging 10-12 hour days ATM... I WILL Pay for this big burst but it's the last burst I can do, there is no more choices or options.
BTW: The Cedar Live Edge is looking really good.... here's a teaser with 1/2 the wall faced with the White Cedar, below.
Specs:
1x4 Cedar Strapping screwed to the sheathing into studs, then 8" Cedar Barn Board (spaced 1.25" apart), then Live Edge which runs between 9-12" width. Tops are bevel cut to slip snug to soffit, bottoms are 1" from the edge of the galvanised drip flashing. ALL Nails, Screws are Galvanised (no nasty staining allowed), all boards are nailed with Galv Nails from my nail gun @ $72 a box, 2 down so far, 1 more to go. BTW Very Fiddly Work to do live edge, kind of like a puzzle to fit together.
North Side, 1/2 Live Edge done
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ColdFlame
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2017 10:45
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Looks beautiful Steve. I'm glad you're carrying on with your bucket list - that is what's important.
Thanks very much for the update; your build is the one I've always been most interested in following. I enjoy reading about your trials and tribulations, and indeed, experiments, as you travel down this path of adventure. Take care!
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KabinKat
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2017 14:45
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Really, really nice! Great ideas and work!
Stay well!
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Shadyacres
Member
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# Posted: 12 Sep 2018 21:28
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Beautiful build , Enjoy it.
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bushbunkie
Member
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# Posted: 13 Sep 2018 21:39
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Hey Steve...hope you are still able to be pluggin* along on your dream despite your crappy health challenges. I know that cabin folk here are wishin you all the best. Give an update if you can.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 14 Sep 2018 08:32
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Heya B.B.,
Yep, still pluggin along and making progress BUT after 3 heart attacks last year and more cardio issues this which are now pretty much handled I'm doin but far slower than I would like & want. Gee Wiz, just looking back here at the thread, I kinda dropped off a year ago ! My Goodness, much has happened since then...
I will have to get to this thread and fill in the rest which there is a lot. I've been asked to write an article for publishing about this build as it crosses several experimental & new techs and a few unique approaches, so I may just do that and cross link it in here. I'm presently not spending much time on the web as the Real World in my corner is pretty busy with a big task list of to-do.
I hafta say it though... While there are certain quirks with this build, it has beat my expectations on liveability thanks to the way the insulation, roof and everything works together to make it so comfy. Hottest day up here on the Ridge was 42C / 107F and the cabin only hit 25.6C / 78F. Last winter was nice with the slab at 21C the place was Sooooo Comfy on my creaking joints and the darn radiant heater only ran an average of 3 minutes per hour to maintain temp so my fuel use was quite low (much lower than what I expected).
TTFN
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jhbr55
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2018 16:42
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Steve,
I find your post very interesting regarding your cool roof but i did not see how you insulated the inside of your roof/ceiling structure.
Thanks
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