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Mainiac
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# Posted: 25 Sep 2014 09:05pm
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Quoting: JBruinsma I trust you built on the ledges down below"?
I mean did you put the piers down to ledge?
Just a question.
Since its right behind the cabin,
I cant believe the inadequate underpinning that people build on.
Deck blocks-Pads ETC..Its ok if U have no frost,I guess.
You wont insulate your cabin?Is it impossible to reach it in winter for use?
I think logs create a lot of problems .BUT
I Still Think you have a great little cabin in the making.Some people create a thing with beauty and style,Others are not so talented or tasteful.
Some cabins are improved by a good ....fire.
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JBruinsma
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# Posted: 26 Sep 2014 06:21pm
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The upper piers did hit rock "ledge" before I got down too far. 1 of the 3 lower piers hit rock. The others are 3-4 ft deep. Can anyone with building experience give any comments or suggestions after looking at the pictures? I am just now dealing with my county. It was my understanding that I could build under 120 sq ft without a permit but as it turns out if the structure is habitable it needs permitted regardless. I thought I overbuilt most of the cabin but the county has already mentioned possible issues with the foundation and lack of collar ties on the rafters etc.
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VTweekender
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# Posted: 26 Sep 2014 07:39pm
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The under 120 sq with no permit is only for a storage shed, many of us have built no-permit sheds and sleep in them now and then. If you tipped them its going to be a cabin then you might wind up building to code, which would be rough looking at the point your build is at now. Also when you label it as a habitable structure you will run into codes for septic and grey water, tough spot. In my county they have a permit for a recreation structure, that sidesteps the codes and allows for a compost toilet and grey water tank that can be brought to a waste facility.
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Mainiac
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# Posted: 26 Sep 2014 07:39pm
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The COUNTY_-Add some flloor timbers to the second floor area to hold the building together.Dont floor it over and leave it open.All that holds your building together is the second floor loft.
Since U are 10 feet wide and not 30 that will do it,
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Mainiac
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# Posted: 26 Sep 2014 07:52pm
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Quoting: VTweekender The under 120 sq with no permit is only for a storage shed
Hes in COLOrado not VT and not Maine.We dont have county codes here.Towns were supposed to adopt a uniform code,but it was from CAL.WE dont need earthquake proof buildings in Maine.So the code didnt happen really.
Towns have building bylaws for lot size,frontage,added setback from water.I am not aware of any under 120 rule.
I think his cantilever building over undersized girders might be an issue.Logs are heavy so.....
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JBruinsma
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# Posted: 26 Sep 2014 10:03pm
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Do you guys think my girders are undersized? I could triple the 2x12 's up to solve that I guess. Right now they are doubled up.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 26 Sep 2014 11:00pm
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I didn't look closely at first- yes, looks loke your girders may be undersized and you may need more collar ties, though your loft joists will do that if properly attached. Put a serious snow load on this building and you'll be dealing with some large forces.
But if you got the local building dept after you now, you may have more of a problem on your hands. What have they said to you? Did an inspector come out and look?
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JBruinsma
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# Posted: 27 Sep 2014 12:28am
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Someone in the area brought in a inspector for his stick framed "cabin". They have now been tipped off and are taking a closer look at the entire area which has a handful of "illegal" cabins. This area is fairly remote with water and power miles away plus it is only accessed by a forest rd that is not maintained.
How would you suggest to attach the loft joists. Right now they are fastened to the wall using joist hangers.
As for collar ties...how high can I place them. I would like to maintain the open feeling as much as possible and also maintain some headroom in the lofts.
Thanks for any help or suggestions!
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 27 Sep 2014 12:48am
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The loft joists should be securely attached to the bottom of the rafters to prevent the rafters kicking out. How much attachment is an engineering question. I generally avoid engineering questions because the numbers go above ten and I only have ten fingers.
But before you make any more improvements to the building without an engineered design, I suggest you find out if the building dept is going to require that you have one. If they do, you may have some serious work to do. I'm pretty sure your foundation won't pass muster, if they require a compliant foundation.
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Gary O
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# Posted: 27 Sep 2014 01:13am
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Collar ties?
It's a small cabin.
Same size as mine.
No room.
Not enough roof or distance to worry about.
Whoever brought in an inspector should be horse whipped.
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JBruinsma
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# Posted: 27 Sep 2014 01:20am
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I was not there in person but I was told that the inspector hinted to the fact that the cabin itself should be ok with some tweaks but the foundation could require a engineer. That scares me. All concrete has to be brought up in bags. My only idea at this point would be to add more piers. 6 piers seemed fine for a 10x12 in my mind but the bottom 3 did end up above grade more than I initially had hoped. Again, any ideas would be appreciated.
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Mainiac
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# Posted: 27 Sep 2014 06:48am
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Ask the BI if he has any suggestions for a fix.Usually fawning over officials and making them your friend (HA) is the only way.If they want to be hard as- you have a problem.
In the town next to ours the Code Enforcement guy was a real dick.a local guy rebuilt a shacky cabin into something really nice.He added on to it slightly and moved something a couple of feet closer to the river.
The CEO turned up on Easter Day and began screaming at him over the cabin.Eventually it ended in court with both sides shelling out $$$$ for lawyers.
So you dont want something similar happening.Hopefully your guy is fairly normal.They usually suggest repairs.Adding floor joists will fix one issue.The foundation ,you better ask him.In detail.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 27 Sep 2014 11:04am - Edited by: bldginsp
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If you look at how your building dead loads bear onto the 6 piers you put in, it turns out that the center two take half the weight of the building. I really doubt that will calc out with a significant snow load.
The depth of the piers is very important where it freezes. You must get them below the frost line or they can heave upward as the soil beneath them freezes. There is no better place for any foundation than on solid bedrock, which you implied is the case with some of your piers. The problem from an inspection perspective is, how do you confirm the piers now that they are full of concrete?
Piers can handle vertical loads if they are large enough, there is enough of them, and they are deep enough, but they are very poor at handling lateral loads (wind shear, earthquake) unless they are engineered to do so. If the building dept. will require an engineered foundation, you will need to make more changes than simply adding more piers. Wind shear accelerates on mountain ridges and hips which is where you are located.
Once again, before you do anything more, you need to find out what they will require. Any work you do now, with good intent, may not help you meet the requirements they impose, and could actually hinder the process. You definitely don't want to pour any more concrete until you know that what you are doing will be accepted, and is inspected before the pour if that's what they want.
At this point you don't even know if they are going to bother to do anything, so maybe it's a sit and wait situation. I imagine you are going to let the project sit for winter anyway (right?) since pretty soon you will be covered with snow. I suggest you do not try to finish the project until you know what they will require.
You may need to do significant foundation work. At this point, judging from the photos, you could disassemble the entire building and re-do or add to the existing foundation, then re-assemble the walls. Are you sure you want to leave such a nice building on a foundation that is destined to fail? As well, the roof system could be redesigned to provide the support needed when you have 8 feet of snow on it at 8000 ft. The steep pitch of the roof will shed most snow most of the time. The structure has to support it the few times it does not, or you risk collapse.
If you directly approach the building department you will force the issue, and they won't be able to ignore it, so only do that if you are committed to improving it to their satisfaction. But that may entail septic etc. I suggest you lay off for the season and see what they do, if anything. Do a lot of research into the local regulations. This isn't the first time someone in your area tried to build a vacation cabin in a remote area, so how has the local building/planning dept. handled it before? What are the local planning rules for such buildings? Every area has their own rules. If you can contact the other people in the area building similar structures, you can work together. If the building department 'bent' the rules for Fred 15 miles away, you can bring that up to them and ask for the same 'interpretation' in your case. Knowledge is power.
And, I suggest you get some real advice from a qualified engineer regarding your design as built. I think they'll tell you that you overbuilt the log walls and rafters, and underbuilt the foundation and other connections (rafter/ceiling joist). A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. You have some very strong links joined together with, well, baling wire. Excuse me, but you sound like you want the truth. Regardless of what the building dept. wants, YOU want a building that will last, right?
NICE looking cabin. I hope you find a workable solution.
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JBruinsma
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# Posted: 27 Sep 2014 09:35pm
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Thanks for your detailed replies!!!
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Gary O
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# Posted: 28 Sep 2014 09:11am
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The roof ain't goin' anywhere.....especially if over secured at the wall (lag bolted bird's mouths).
But
The two 2 x ?, screwed or nailed together sittin' in brackets that everthing is restin' on would be my concern.
Ice, and snow turning to ice, are huge factors.
Quoting: bldginsp Piers can handle vertical loads if they are large enough, there is enough of them, and they are deep enough, but they are very poor at handling lateral loads (wind shear, earthquake) unless they are engineered to do so. If the building dept. will require an engineered foundation, you will need to make more changes than simply adding more piers. Wind shear accelerates on mountain ridges and hips which is where you are located.
'tis a trufe
(I CANNOT! believe I'm fostering a kind regard t'wards a building inspector...I need a drink)
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Mainiac
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# Posted: 29 Sep 2014 07:44am
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Probably wanting an engineer to sign off means the BI has some question about your foundation and has no idea if it will pass muster.He probably doesnt know how to fix it either.
He did suggest some tweaks to fix the part he knows.
U better either get an opinion so your work isnt wasted.More work might be more waste.
Sorry U got in this mess and live where rules are so stiff.
I have built many buildings,but most were on foundations or slabs.Piers are fairly dicky if u dont have footings or are not down far enuf.If U hit ledge U are down enuf.That is why I asked.
Cantilevered Log cabins are kind of unusual so....
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JBruinsma
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# Posted: 29 Sep 2014 01:22pm
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The porch cantilever won't be cantilevered when we get done. It will also be supported by piers. My debate now is do I support the porch as planned thinking it will also help salitify the rest of the structure and risk wasting time and $$ if the inspector comes back and says the extra 3 piers under the porch beams didn't help??? I could make sure to go down to bedrock on those and not just stop at 3 ft.
We were able to finish window jams, windows, and the door jam this weekend. I decided against a 30" door and will use a 36" only because it is code. I think it looks too big on a 10th wall and it also forced me to use a smaller window than I wanted on the same wall. Here are a few new pictures. Let me know what everyone thinks.
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JBruinsma
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# Posted: 29 Sep 2014 01:25pm
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 29 Sep 2014 01:33pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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Don't pour concrete until you know whether the building dept. wants to see it before it is poured. Waste of time and money if you do. Inspecting footings before they are poured is one of the major things we do. It's always impossible to confirm what's in there after it has been poured. Uninspected footings can't be used to fill code requirements. I doubt any inspector will just look at your footings after they are installed and approve them. Has to be part of an engineered design, and the depth, width, and rebar confirmed prior to the pour.
The extra piers might help but they won't approve them unless they confirm them before the pour. They wanna see that bedrock, they won't take your word for it.
That is, if they make you get a permit. Of not, different story. As yet you don't know if they are going to force the permit issue.
Keep us posted
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JBruinsma
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# Posted: 29 Sep 2014 02:13pm - Edited by: JBruinsma
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My problem is that I don't know one way or another if I will hear from the county again or not. I don't want to go to them directly without them initiating it. I could wait months if not years waiting on them. It's not that I'm against code. I want to build the structure to be safe and up to code. For the structure itself the code part is relatively easy but the foundation is another story.
I almost feel like at this point that if they come back and are by the books there is very little I could do to make them happy about the foundation because they don't know how deep the piers are, how much rebar was used, etc. They have to take my word for everything. I feel like my only chance would be to finish my build adding the 3 more piers and figuring out some type of bracing to help stabilize the piers side to side. Adding more, larger piers maybe with lots of pictures. They will either force me to have a engineered foundation regardless of what they see or they will let me by with what I have if it appears safe is my opinion of what will happen.
I truly to appreciate everyone's advice and suggestions. Keep them coming.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 29 Sep 2014 02:27pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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I don't know how their department works, but most will not let you by if it appears safe. Either they will require full, verified code compliance or they will consider the building not requiring a permit, in which case they won't look at it at all. Where I work if its less than 120 square feet we ignore it and don't require anything. If its over we require the full permit process with all inspections. No grey area between. But I don't know what they will do.
Good luck
Final note- if the building has no plumbing, electrical, or heating, it is easier for the building dept. to consider it a storage building rather than a residence, in which case it requires no permit. If it has any of those, it more closely resembles a residence. This is where they have interpretation and judgement, and this could make the difference for you. I suggest you put no plumbing, sinks, electrical, woodstove, cook stove or anything else in the cabin. Bring what you need when you come, leave it empty when you go. They might accept it that way as a storage structure. But, given that its where it is, they might say that it's clearly for habitation, and they will require a permit. If it has plumbing and cooking and heating, they have no choice but to make that interpretation.
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JBruinsma
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# Posted: 29 Sep 2014 03:11pm
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Thanks bldginsp!! I have made no definite decisions at this point and will keep your advice in mind.
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Sustainusfarm
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# Posted: 29 Sep 2014 04:47pm
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You have no space above your windows and doors to account for settling as the logs dry out...??
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Mainiac
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# Posted: 29 Sep 2014 07:52pm
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He wont have a bath ,electric ETC.anyway.Outhouse?
He can bring his camping gear,but if he puts it in,its a housing unit.
LOcal codes are local codes.
Unless U do business in hisarea,U cant say.That 120 sqft thing is your local code,.I never heard of such a thing,Local codes used to apply over 200 ft,That was a local thing,
He has a roof,Finish the trim.Put in the doors and WDWS,Something on the floor ,Thats it.
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JBruinsma
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# Posted: 29 Sep 2014 10:26pm
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The logs are all beetle killed standing dead trees. They had been dead and drying for a minimum of a couple years. I understand they still have some moisture but I don't expect them to shrink much. Again, this is all a learning experience. If I do start to have problems at the door and windows I have a plan B.
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w8n4rut
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# Posted: 30 Sep 2014 06:39am
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JBruinsma-
I just wanted to issue some words of encouragement!! You have built a beautiful cabin and done an excellent job!!
Don't let all the building codes and inspection talk take the fun out of it for you. I am a licensed contractor and deal with the government powers every day. In your case it seems just wrong!!....you are probably building your cabin in the woods to get away from the every day grind of life and you run smack dab into it in the middle of nowhere! Either way...when you get the monkeys off your back you are going to have a beautiful place. Enjoy every minute of it.
As for the structure of your building I would say you have done a very good job. As long as your ridge board is supported down to your walls on the ends and your rafters are tied to the walls good (hurricane ties) you shouldn't have any roof load problems. It looks like a 12/12 roof or so...I would doubt any snow is going to sit on that steel roof. Also any loft joists tying the top of the walls together will help. We have to remember this is ONLY A 10'X12' BUILDING! As for your foundation piers I would say as long as it is tied in good on the side sitting closer to the ground so there isn't any chance of lateral movement(tipping to the downhill side) you are more than adequate.
Again...you have done an excellent job!! Don't let this take the fun and enjoyment out of it for you. You have accomplished a huge task that many just dream about!! Make sure and keep posting pictures of your project as you go if you can.
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Sarg68
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# Posted: 30 Sep 2014 07:04am
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Really looking good. Can't wait to see the finished floor. Sarg
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Mainiac
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# Posted: 30 Sep 2014 07:17am
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Quoting: w8n4rut In your case it seems just wrong!!.
Well if u deal with them,U know that their call is the final call.
Evidently his 10 by 12 cabin needs an engineered foundation.?WHY,I have no idea.COLORADo must be pretty picky?Even in such a remote area.Of course if he sold it the problems are transferred on down the line.One would think such a cabin would have minimal oversight,but I guess not.
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Mainiac
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# Posted: 30 Sep 2014 07:24am
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By the way.All that cantilever stuff will rot away in a few years.All those ends sticking out and his porch supports-deck in front will rot away too.On the sides the cabin rests on that.
Its not a deck in your back yard.
So the lifespan of this cabin is limited.By virtue of its inherent defects.
I just tore down a huge deck with PT decking but hemlock framing.What the purpose of such building is,I have no idea.The framing lasted a few years.
Its still a nice looking cabin but...
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w8n4rut
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# Posted: 30 Sep 2014 07:40am
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Quoting: Mainiac Well if u deal with them,U know that their call is the final call.
Yes it is. And if that is what you have to do then that is what you have to do.
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