Small Cabin

Small Cabin Forum
 - Forums - Register/Sign Up - Reply - Search - Statistics -

Small Cabin Forum / Member's Projects and Photos / Vermont Cabin Project
<< . 1 . 2 . 3 . 4 . 5 . 6 . 7 . >>
Author Message
sabiggs
Member
# Posted: 2 Sep 2012 20:44
Reply 


Got one side of the cabin done with shingles now. Our generator is done for so it was slow going with just hammer and nails. Next time we can hopefully get the other side done as well as the staining (lighter shade than the clapboards)
Shingles done
Shingles done
back side finished
back side finished


sabiggs
Member
# Posted: 27 Nov 2012 08:20 - Edited by: sabiggs
Reply 


Hi all,

Been a while since I've been able to sneak away with my brother for some time (and work) at the cabin. Progress is slow, but it's coming. It's been hard to get away with a 4 month old but it looks like Chris and I will be getting back into the swing of things with our monthly overnight trips this winter. Our hope is to finish the outside next trip up and then turn our attention to the inside (walls, chimney, etc.)

This trip was only a day, but we had some fun. We replaced the crappy shed window over the door with a real legit window Friday night in the pitch black. That was an experience, but we got it done. The next morning, Chris worked on framing the window and adding the drip edge while I stained the shingles on the backside. We're psyched with how the staining colors have worked out--just as we wanted!

We got cut short this trip and had to leave abruptly so we only finished about half the shingles on the front side, but that should get finished and stained this weekend by Chris alone.

Winter is coming and it was cold for sure. So nice having a glorious wood stove, some seasoned wood, and a few cold ones inside. Now that's living!
New Window
New Window
Framing/ Drip Edge
Framing/ Drip Edge
Finishing the Stain on the Back
Finishing the Stain on the Back
Almost There
Almost There


Mainemom3
# Posted: 28 Nov 2012 15:28
Reply 


We own some property in the Great North Woods of New Hampshire. We currently have a 2 bedroom mobile home on it. We also have a cement slab on the property. We have septic but no electricity or running water. We are looking into buying a shed perhaps 12x24 with a loft to make into a guest house on our property on the cement slab. We have a pipe we could easily hook into the septic system. We may start in te Spring. I was trying to see the inside of a finished one so I could get a visual of what it would be like. Love your cabin. We very much enjoy sneaking over the border into Vermont whenever we are in NH.

sabiggs
Member
# Posted: 28 Nov 2012 19:50
Reply 


Well thanks very much. We sometimes sneak across the border to your neck of the woods as well. It's some of the country's most beautiful land (if I do say so myself).

Best of luck to you.

hakalugi
Member
# Posted: 2 Dec 2012 17:26
Reply 


sabiggs - great job. I read all 5 pages. I was thinking of doing a starter structure for tools storage and instead of tent camping to startl.

Very inspiring. It motivated me to put my thoughts into my own blog. One page published, several more in draft form. I'll share on another thread, but I wanted to just say keep it up and we're looking forward to the updates

sabiggs
Member
# Posted: 29 Dec 2012 18:09 - Edited by: sabiggs
Reply 


Have I got a story for you...

I had been waiting all week to get to the cabin for a night with my wife, 3 year old daughter and 5 month old daughter. I LOVE going up with my family because I usually only get to go up with my brother so I look forward to these trips.

So, about half way up (about 125 miles total trip), I start thinking to myself, "Wow, traffic is thick today. Pay attention". Twenty minutes later, I get locked in a lane behind an Ohio license plated car with about a foot of snow the roof. Every few seconds huge chunks of snow come flying on the roof and narrowly missing my car. Before I know it, a chunk about half the size of the roof comes hurtling toward my car and lands directly on the windshield, right in front of my face. Instant shatter.

Luckily, I kept my poise and kept driving, even though millions of tiny little shards of glass were all over me, my car, and more importantly, my 2/3rds full coffee. Worst of all this Ohio lady won't pull over after it all...so I chase her down for about a mile, honking and pointing to the side of the road.

She finally pulls over and we talk, I call the police and eventually things get squared away. We wait for about an hour for a tow truck and a transport for me and the kids. At this point, I'm pissed about the windshield and totally crushed that our VT trip that probably isn't going to happen at this point.

We get to the Auto glass place after a 30 minute ride and by now it's about 12:00. The glass won't even get to the shop until 1:00, then it's about an hour job to clean the car and get the glass on and then an additional hour of waiting while the glue sets. A 3:00 PM departure under perfect circumstances.

Things went just about perfect and we were on the road around 3:00, with a fresh cup of coffee (damn you, Ohio lady). We had waffled over whether or not to go up or go home. It would be 4:45 by the time we got to the land, dark, and I would still have to snowshoe 125+ yards uphill carrying all our junk through 2+ feet of fresh powdery snow. Finally, we decided to give it a go...and I'm glad we did.

We got to the land, I showshoed up (it was beautiful, but tiring), got a fire ready in the stove, headed back down to the fam, got in the car and we drove to town for dinner. Dinner was amazing, that's all that needs to be said there. Incredible eating after a horrible day. Things were looking up!

We got back to the land, strapped on our snowshoes and headlamps and each carried a kid up to the cabin. Within minutes the fire was roaring, the kids we going to sleep and things were looking better by the second. What a day. The moon was so full and bright last night we kept walking outside in awe as it was so bright out we could see our shadows against the snow at 10:00 PM. Awesome! I lay in the loft for about 10 minutes, just looking out the window at the beauty of nature under a bright-ass moon!

Today we drove some beautiful roads and saw some beautiful mountains covered in snow. We made some visits to some local friends, did a few errands, putzed around the land for a while before returning home, just before the snow really hit. Oh, and we bought some new VT maple syrup from our favorite sugar shack (sadly, no "sugar on snow" today)

A crazy, but awesome (in the end) few days. A cold beer definitely tastes better at the end of a trying day.

...oh, and we bought a snowmobile last week that I saw for the first time today. I didn't have time to take it out for a cruise, but I must say I'm pretty pumped about it.

Happy New Year
Busted windshield
Busted windshield
Looking back on my snowshoe  trail
Looking back on my snowshoe trail
Looking up at the cabin, the snow, and my trail
Looking up at the cabin, the snow, and my trail
Cabin and Snowshoes
Cabin and Snowshoes


silverwaterlady
Member
# Posted: 29 Dec 2012 19:20
Reply 


Wow. Glad you were not hurt. This happens a lot more than you would expect. Most times it is a sheet of ice coming off the top of a semi trailer. Something to be aware of this time of year.

Montanagirl
Member
# Posted: 29 Dec 2012 21:13
Reply 


Love the color of your cabin! (same as ours ) Ours is California Rustic stain. Also love the fact you snowshoe in. I'm thinking a pair of those would work well for me as we are not able to drive in either. (unless I buy a winch for the jeep) LOL . . .
broot.jpg
broot.jpg


trollbridge
Member
# Posted: 30 Dec 2012 12:07
Reply 


Lol-great cabin story...thanks for sharing! Of course it is only great because 1. You were not hurt (sorry about the coffee though) and 2. Because it is now in the past....events like these are always funnier when told in past tense!

The whole time I was reading I was wondering if you ended up still going to the cabin. Suspense was killing me-lol! So glad you did! If you would have gone home you would have just stewed about not being there, some time is better than no time right?

So what is the general ruling on who's held liable in that situation? The lady for not clearing the top of her car or you(naw) for following too closely...not saying you were...just thinking like an insurance company-blech! My husband recently had this discussion with the guys at work and he's wondering if you hold the magic answer?

Glad you had a great time in the end...definitely a memory you will always have with you!

sabiggs
Member
# Posted: 30 Dec 2012 12:13 - Edited by: sabiggs
Reply 


Trollbridge, they are 100% liable. The state cop told me it is illegal to drive with snow on your roof. She said, "well he was a little close." to which the officer cut her short and said, "ma'am you are completely at fault, another word and I'll arrest you for not having removed the snow."

Moral of the story--clear the snow off your car. Well, that and also to cherish every sip of your coffee because every sip could be your last.

trollbridge
Member
# Posted: 30 Dec 2012 12:25
Reply 


Lol...good to know...now an end can be put to this great debate and they can get on arguing over which buffet to eat lunch at.!!!

Thanks for passing on your new found knowledge...I shall forever preach to my children about keeping the tops of their cars cleaned!

sabiggs
Member
# Posted: 14 Jan 2013 16:36 - Edited by: sabiggs
Reply 


Well, the shingling is done--finally! We spent a great Saturday at the land, working away. We're so close to finishing the exterior now. One day away, that's it. Just a little finish work to the overhang and then painted it.

We were shingling only a small area so it was very time consuming. Almost every shingle needed a cut, and a precise one at that. My brother called out the cuts from the ladder, I made them and passed the shingles back up to him to nail.

I also got some time to try out our new toy--snowmobile. the snow is melting, so I was glad to get a few fun runs in. What a blast. The only trouble is, we only have one. Just one run and I knew it---we need another!

Long term, the wheels are in motion. More land clearing, electricity, and the future bigger cabin (2014, maybe??). Exciting times here.
Making the Cuts
Making the Cuts
Finished But Unstained
Finished But Unstained
Stain Going On
Stain Going On
Finished Shingles
Finished Shingles


George
Member
# Posted: 14 Feb 2013 09:44
Reply 


I'm a transplant(1970) to Wa, but spent years bowhunting in Bradford VT when I lived in Mass.Enjoy your project.Always fun to see the finished project.

sabiggs
Member
# Posted: 17 Feb 2013 19:59 - Edited by: sabiggs
Reply 


Hi everyone,

Just got back from another beautiful VT weekend. One step closer to electric. Wouldn't that be sweet!

We got most of the cabin wired for electric this weekend. The biggest job remaining is to bring the power from the street to the cabin, a mere 350 feet. Oh, and it has to be underground too, so no easy feat. Maybe that tractor we've been talking about buying will become more of a priority now.

Yesterday was very cold, but that didn't stop us from taking a 30 minute ride on the local snowmobile trails. It was my first time really getting out there and man, there's some beautiful land around us. It was hard not to enjoy the views. That snowmobile is fun! We need another.

We worked until dark getting the electric prepped and moving furniture so both us and the furniture would fit. The we drove to town for some awesome food at the tavern. The bartender remembered us and even remembered that we are brothers. We had to wait for a while, but finally got two seats at the bar and enjoyed some ridiculously tasty food! Ver-mont!

This morning we visited our coffee friend, picked up some supplies and returned home. On the way, my brother filled up his water bottle at the "mountain spring" down the road from us. We were able to almost finish the electric prep work. I was able to wood fill some holes/ cracks on the last unpainted exterior wood. It was so cold though, we were unable to paint and barely able to get the wood filling completed. It was freezing too quickly.

Another weekend in the books and we're looking ahead. Warmer weather should bring some big picture thinking: tree work, electric, water, garage, etc. The possibilities are endless. Back in a few more weeks for the local Maple Sugar Festival and another trip up.

Life is good.
The Dirty Work
The Dirty Work
Wood Filler
Wood Filler
Main Switch at Door
Main Switch at Door
Box
Box


archimedes
Member
# Posted: 3 Mar 2013 20:23
Reply 


Great looking property and project -I really enjoyed reading.

I was wondering, do you need permits where you are?

sabiggs
Member
# Posted: 11 Mar 2013 20:24
Reply 


It's official. We bought a tractor.

Damn, it's nice.
She's a Beaut.
She's a Beaut.


hattie
Member
# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 13:46
Reply 


You'll get LOTS of use out of that tractor!!! I love the look of your place. It is adorable. Love the stain colour and shingles!

adakseabee
Member
# Posted: 15 Mar 2013 23:03
Reply 


I can see it now. Before starting construction on the real cabin, a barn/shed for the tractor gets built! Can't leave something that nice-looking in the woods all alone. Someone is bound to vandalize it.

sabiggs
Member
# Posted: 18 Jul 2013 13:22 - Edited by: sabiggs
Reply 


Hi all,

Been a while for me, but things are happening in VT. It's exciting.

Things are coming along up north. Things are happening, progress is being made and the future is quickly becoming the present.

Chris and I made a trip up in April to put in some plants and a few other things but progress had been slow over the last few months. We just got back from a pretty great weekend at the land. A lot of discussion about the "real" cabin, water, electric, septic....the next steps.

It was hot this weekend, but we had a great time. The big project was getting the backhoe up to the land from Chris's backyard. It took us an hour or two, and wasn't easy, but we were able to load it onto the rented U-Haul and head out by about 9:30 Saturday morning. This was a major success for us and once at the land, we unloaded it and then attached it to our tractor (not without some trouble removing bolts, though and spending way too much time on our backs under the tractor).

I practiced using the tractor a little and moved a few buckets full of mulch to behind the cabin. Chris worked on digging out the trench behind the cabin while I re-mulched the lookout spot and then spread the mulch behind the cabin. I then did my best cutting up downed trees in an effort to make a bridge for the ATV across the bigger trench. I got pretty close to finishing it too, just forgot to take a picture.


We met with Todd (our tree guy) and a local electrician in preparation for our last (and biggest) clearing to date and also putting in electric. We clearing out a ton of trees and the space that will be left for the future cabin will be huge when it's all cleared! It's exciting! The clearing and electric could be done as early as mid-August. From there, progress can really be made as we're talking about putting in the well and even getting septic designs, etc. Chris has spoken to a local timber framer about the future cabin and they have exchanged pictures, ideas and even some preliminary money figures. It's exciting that we're moving closer to what we've been building toward for so long.

We finished early Saturday night and drove to NH for some fireworks (buy one, get two free) and then visited an old favorite for dinner, The New England House. It was incredibly foggy Saturday night as the view from Hogback Mountain wasn't more than 50 feet. We both slept well that night, that's for sure.

On Sunday we went to the flea market in hopes of finding an old school push lawnmower but were unsuccessful (except for the awesome chili plant we took home). We also paid a visit to Lisa, who informed us she may have a buyer for her coffeehouse that she has been trying to sell. It's sad that she's selling but also happy that she's moving on.


Last winter, Chris bought a snowmobile and trailer from a local guy in town. It's been 8 months and we still never took the trailer, so we tried loading the snowmobile trailer into the rented U-Haul trailer but completely failed. The trailer will have to wait a few more months I guess. We did get a good picture of a local barn next door though that sort of has the look of the future cabin we are planning to build.

Chris and I spent the last few hours Sunday tag teaming the tractor, him on the bucket and me on the actual tractor. We were able to make progress on the trench but met our match when we came across some pretty large boulders. We pushed the backhoe to its limit, that's for sure!

Hopefully, another trip up is in the cards for us this summer. There's always work to be done and the list is always growing but it remains exciting, interesting and fun.

Electricity. It's so close now.
Backhoe on Trailer
Backhoe on Trailer
Off the Trailer
Off the Trailer
Mulch Behind Cabin
Mulch Behind Cabin
Local Barn we Like
Local Barn we Like


trollbridge
Member
# Posted: 20 Jul 2013 09:26
Reply 


Sounds like a great weekend! I can hear the excitement in your voice when you talk about the cabin and especially the "real" cabin! I remember being there, too

I hope you get back real soon

sabiggs
Member
# Posted: 30 Jul 2013 21:24
Reply 


Tomorrow my brother and I are heading up to the land. We're meeting with a site engineer who is going to tell us basically where to put the well, the septic and electric for the main cabin.

Our electrician and "tree cutter" will also be there tomorrow and promptly get started clearing more trees and installing the underground electric.

The electric will be 300 Amp service and travel about 300 feet to the main cabin (future spot) and then go another 100 ft underground to the current mini cabin. We'll have electric in a few days.

It's incredible. Dreams becoming reality. A totally unique experience for me.

sabiggs
Member
# Posted: 18 Aug 2013 20:30 - Edited by: sabiggs
Reply 


This weekend was a monumental weekend. A game changer. We now have electricity.

It took us a while to figure out how (and where) to turn it on, but it most certainly is on. And it is sweet. So different laying in bed and then turning off the light with a switch. It's great now and it's summer but when it's winter and getting dark early, it will be even better.

Not only did we arrive to electricity at the cabin, I think we've started the final push to the finish line there as well. We put up drywall and were able to mud it as well. The bottom half of the walls will be 1x8 boards with a chair rail between the boards and the drywall. Should be sweet. We also did a little extra work furthering the driveway even further up the hill toward the future garage and also were able to plant two Blue Spruce along the property line to help give us more coverage from the snowmobile trail. We also spoke with the neighbor about adding a few more culverts to our driveway to make turning out easier for big trucks. One of the culverts spills over to the neighbor's property so we spoke with him about the job. He's all for it!

The road ahead is exciting. The upcoming jobs include: finish mudding and sanding the walls, instal a floor and also put up the bottom half boards, add the track lighting at the ceiling and the can lights under the loft. We also have to add an exterior light--it will be amazing to come home to a lit cabin when it's dark.

I'm continuously amazed at our progress, vision and results. Nothing has ever been so gratifying. The future is bright--literally!!

Oh and the wild blackberries were out, and they were amazing!
Light!!!!!!!!
Light!!!!!!!!
Drywalling
Drywalling
Mudding
Mudding
Done for the day
Done for the day


sabiggs
Member
# Posted: 18 Aug 2013 20:32 - Edited by: sabiggs
Reply 


more pictures
Vermont Wild Blackberries
Vermont Wild Blackberries
Blue Spruce
Blue Spruce
Slow Going
Slow Going
More Progress
More Progress


sabiggs
Member
# Posted: 18 Aug 2013 20:55 - Edited by: sabiggs
Reply 


One more picture from my post two above.

My wife, two daughters and I stayed the weekend at the cabin two weeks ago. We hiked the 3800 foot Mount Equinox (my wife with one kid on her back and I with the other). The view at the top was amazing. They don't call it The Green Mountain State for nothin'. Perfect weather. Top 5 day of the year.
Summit of Mt. Equinox, Vermont
Summit of Mt. Equinox, Vermont


Vermonter
Member
# Posted: 16 Sep 2013 14:30
Reply 


I love your cabin and progress!

I live here in Vermont, in the Northeast Kingdom.

sabiggs
Member
# Posted: 19 Dec 2013 18:19 - Edited by: sabiggs
Reply 


Hi all,

I have been lazy in posting updates on progress. Lots going on.

Anyways, since the last post, lots has happened, both at the land and behind the scenes as well. Here's a quick rundown of what has been going on:
• We went up for my Dad's birthday and took he and my Stepmom out on the reservoir at the peak of the fall foliage. It was gorgeous, and Chris's new boat was amazing! The beers tasted good that day, that's for sure!
• We bought another snowmobile. This one's a lot nicer than our first and it's for two people too, which is nice. Can't wait to take that baby out!
• We have just received our septic design for the future cabin and are awaiting final approval from the state.
• We decided to clear even more land for the future cabin (2015 build is looking more and more probable). We now have a massive opening, which is amazing. And, we were able to make $800 off the timber.
• We realized we would need some winter coverage for our "toys", so we were able to put up a portable garage (literally one day before snow flew).
• We extended the driveway beyond the cabin, about 100 feet further up the hill, and cleared a little space for the portable garage. It took many many loads of dirt.
• We've continued to update the cabin inside, adding dimmer switches to the lights, an outside light, and making plans for flood lights off the back. We also installed two pot lights under the loft. The drywall is at a standstill for now as we need to put on a second coat of mud and sand and in order to do that we need to take all of the furniture out. With snow on the ground, that project will have to wait (probably close to 5-6 months).
• We saw fresh moose tracks in the clearing but have still yet to see anything (in person or on the trail cam). One of these days...
• We extended the driveway culvert another 14 feet. Now, large trucks can easily get in/ out. We'll be glad we did this when we go to pour the cabin foundation and we need to get concrete trucks in/ out.

Upcoming things:
• More lighting in the cabin (track lighting at the ceiling).
• Trail maintenance (widening trails)
• Snowmobiling
• Winter upkeep.

I'll be better with the updates too. It's also nice for us to have this permanent dialogue of our progress.
New Clearing
New Clearing
Fall foliage
Fall foliage
More clearing
More clearing
Portable Garage for the toys
Portable Garage for the toys


sabiggs
Member
# Posted: 19 Dec 2013 18:24
Reply 


...and more pics from the post above.
Snow at the clearing
Snow at the clearing
30 ft brush piles!
30 ft brush piles!
more clearing
more clearing
yep, more clearing
yep, more clearing


sabiggs
Member
# Posted: 24 Feb 2014 19:06
Reply 


We had an awesome and productive weekend. We were able to finish the lower half of the walls, adding ship lap and framing around the lower half of all the walls. It's just another step forward to what now seems like a possible end in sight. We still need to sand the drywall and mud again, but other than that, all the remains inside is finalizing the fireplace and then flooring...and, of course a legit loft ladder.

We arrived late Friday night after a 3+ hour drive that should have only taken 2 hours, but the roads were so icy we were reduced to half speed. Along the way, we saw more than one car spun out on the side of the road and we nearly suffered the same fate ourselves. We arrived late, but still found time to stand in the middle of the large clearing and dream about the soon-to-be cabin and where it would eventually go. As always, the stars were insanely bright and clear. There's really no words that can do explain that aspect of VT. The weather was gorgeous this weekend so we were working outside without a jacket for most of the time.

We put some snow chains on the tractor's tires and got right to plowing on Saturday morning. By day's end, we had finished plowing, the interior woodwork, and a few other odds and ends. After a late night Friday, we went out to eat in town and were home and asleep by 10:00. We're old.

Sunday was more leisurely and relaxing. We got lots of small things done. We hung up the street number sign our dad gave us for X-Mas, hung a new trail cam, tapped a few trees for syrup, and rode the snowmobiles and ATV, of course. Oh, and more tractor fun too.

All in all it was a motivating and inspiring weekend that left us hungry to quickly get back up and keep the ball rolling. Next trip we will probably finish the fireplace, a job that will include shifting the wood stove 45 degrees and adding a small mantle. It will work great with the new, more efficient layout we have set up.

Things are happening. We have reached out to several timber framers about future cabin plans, we've received possible floors plans, we're talking about drilling a spring well, and breaking ground on the "real" cabin in what is only about 12 months away. So much is happening yet the list to do only grows longer and more exciting. And spring is just around the corner...

more pictures and stories at:
http://halifaxcabin.blogspot.com/
Syrup dripping
Syrup dripping
Prepping for ship lap
Prepping for ship lap
Finished for the day
Finished for the day
Snowy Day
Snowy Day


sabiggs
Member
# Posted: 13 Apr 2014 20:05 - Edited by: sabiggs
Reply 


There's still some snow, but it's warming up in VT-we were able to drive with the windows down, getting a glimpse into the months to come.

We arrived Friday night and did our customary walk around the property in the dark. It's mud season in VT so it's, well, muddy. We definitely went ankle deep a few times this weekend. Saturday was a fun day with a little of everything: coffee at Lisa's, a trip to WW, Dot's, a cruise around town and then some work at home, prepping the wood stove area for the stone fireplace. We were totally successful and even had time to get out on the ATV's for the first time in a few months. Fun. Then, dinner at an old fave, The New England House. You gotta love those chicken fingers!!

Sunday, we woke to rain, which kind of stunk since we wanted to build a picnic table. We decided to nix the picnic table because of the rain and instead, we went to Dot's for breakfast, WW (again), Bennington Furniture, and Lisa's. Basically, we poked around. But we did get stuff done too. The hanging light over the door was finally finished and the track lighting was installed, and it looks great. Chris was able to borrow a sander from work that not only reduced dust but made the job go way faster. We're so close to painting now. Paint samples are even of the walls.

Another off road ATV trip resulted in a few mishaps and using the winch to pull us out of the snow, etc. Then, we left the cabin in great shape, including a loft ladder I made at home that looks great and way better than the metal ladder we were using before.

Next up: stone work for the fireplace, painting, and flooring. After that, we turn our attention to pouring cement sonotubes to reinforce the foundation. This summer will bring a well to the property, more trail work, more toys, and more driveway work/ maintenance (this winter really kicked our property's ass).

The days are longer, we're making progress, and oh, we just scored a free wood-fired hot tub from Chris's neighbor. Options.

more pictures and stories at:
http://halifaxcabin.blogspot.com/
Framing the cement board
Framing the cement board
Finished cememt board
Finished cememt board
ATV
ATV
1/2 way there on the light
1/2 way there on the light


sabiggs
Member
# Posted: 13 Apr 2014 20:06
Reply 


more pictures from the above post.
Lights!
Lights!
Track lighting
Track lighting
Sanding drywall/mud
Sanding drywall/mud
Hot Tub!
Hot Tub!


<< . 1 . 2 . 3 . 4 . 5 . 6 . 7 . >>
Your reply
Bold Style  Italic Style  Underlined Style  Thumbnail Image Link  Large Image Link  URL Link           :) ;) :-( :confused: More smilies...

» Username  » Password 
Only registered users can post here. Please enter your login/password details before posting a message, or register here first.