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orpington Member	# Posted: 22 Jan 2021 01:39pm Reply Spare the drumroll, please. It doesn't appear this will get very far. I have over 25 acres, just over 25 acres, of timberland in a more rural section of Connecticut. The concern I had was since this is under Public Act 490, which subjects owners of >25 acres of forest land a significant tax break. My question before even proceeding was does a 2 acre residential lot have to be sectioned out for a cabin or not. The township claims that a. 2 acre residential lot has to be sectioned out but since the whole is >25 acres I still qualify for the tax break. I don't actually believe that... The township defines a cabin as between 200 and 400 ft sq located on the back 50% of the lot which is odd as lots vary in depth. Mine being 1200 ft deep means the cabin has to be at least 600 feet from the road. I didn't want electricity, anyways, so being 600+ feet back isn't a problem with regards to the expensive cost per pole to the cabin. I wouldn't mind a well, but capped outside with a hand pump. Given my work schedule, meaning I would use this cabin 10 to 14 days a year under the best of circumstances, indoor plumbing not desired due to frozen pipes. Heat and cooking would be through a wood stove. I was considering a mad dash to get this done as ordinances are being reviewed now. The building inspector said this might not be a disadvantage as there will no longer be a cabin definition but everything will be considered a residence, no minimum square footage setback of 50% of the depth not required. Seems like being a house vs a cabin opens up a whole can of worms. EXCEPT there will be no mad dash to build this cabin now as the following already exists. You have to have electricity to keep the smoke alarms powered. I didn't even ask about the outhouse I have planned as you must have septic fields and probably indoor plumbing. There was something else over regulatory, I forgot which. What happened to the FREEDOM that used to exist in this country? Someone wants to build a small cabin at minimal cost and use it sparingly, no can do! This cabin just became a MINIMUM $50000 project!!! Any thoughts? My next approach, although this will take some time, is to locate an existing cabin on land like that which I desire that is grandfathered in and not have to deal with all the regulatory jumbledejum and all the inherent associated costs.

Brettny Member	# Posted: 22 Jan 2021 02:07pm Reply Quoting: orpington didn't even ask about the outhouse I have planned as you must have septic fields and probably indoor plumbing. Outhouse with a hole in the ground prob isnt legal. Did you buy this property expecting to build a cabin?

orpington Member	# Posted: 22 Jan 2021 03:31pm Reply No Iâ€™ve owned the property a great long time. As I approach retirement age a cabin has appeal. Outhouses. Such a fuss over biodegradable materials. Independent of legality, surely yâ€™all arenâ€™t paying the $10k plus initiation fee of septic and fields to service your 5k cabin built from repurposed materials?

Irrigation Guy Member	# Posted: 22 Jan 2021 03:37pm Reply I detest the bureaucracy of Connecticut and I live in NY. With 25 acres and you are just planning a small shed sized off grid cabin I would be tempted to just build it and take the risk.

Nobadays Member	# Posted: 22 Jan 2021 03:59pm Reply Quoting: orpington surely yâ€™all arenâ€™t paying the $10k plus initiation fee of septic and fields to service your 5k cabin Where our place is in CO the county requires a ful residential septic system to the tune of $20-$30,000. Some have gotten around this requirement by having a holding tank... not sure what the county requires with that option. Maybe work for you?

fiftyfifty Member	# Posted: 22 Jan 2021 05:47pm Reply Surely they cannot fault you for storing a nice-sized ice fishing house on your own land? Something on skids, you know, for when you bring it out onto the ice...unless this year you didn't get around to as much ice fishing as you had hoped...

frankpaige Member	# Posted: 22 Jan 2021 06:08pm Reply I guess what struck me was the 10 to 14 days a years of usage. Not a whole lot, well? For me. Anyway. What are the rules on RV's or " I hate to use the word trailer"? Seems you have spoken to the BI. Did they suggest any other options? Is the cabin site noticeable from the roads? Would there be any neighbors that might take issue with what you want? I remember Conn. very wooded. Do you think that any variance would be granted? With limits on usage? What about land swaps? Something with a cabin already on there? Seems you have read the rules throughly. Any wiggle room in there at all? Dog gone, it seems pretty frustrating. But, those, let's say Easterners have been at this a long time. Much Luck in your endeavor. Sitting on that porch is worth a lot of work.

orpington Member	# Posted: 22 Jan 2021 07:34pm Reply I will have to reread the rules. See if they can be bent a bit. It seems a barn is not allowed without a house. Garage is okay but he was quick to point out you better not be caught living in it. What if they do? Do I get to serve time, LOL! What do they do? Drive around to see if Iâ€™m living there every now and again, trespassing on my PRIVATE property? As for such limited usage, welcome to being working class in America. Little leisure time. Because of this I am saving as much as I can so I can be FULLY retired in less than nine years.

Fanman Member	# Posted: 22 Jan 2021 08:08pm Reply Quoting: Irrigation Guy I detest the bureaucracy of Connecticut and I live in NY. Ha! I live in Connecticut and detest the bureaucracy of NY, where my cabin is. Though in this case it's probably the town building code, not the state. In some CT towns you can put up a "shed", if it's not on a permanent foundation it requires no permit at all. If you're out of sight from the road (seems easy with 25 acres), who's to know how or when you're using it?

gcrank1 Member	# Posted: 22 Jan 2021 08:42pm Reply Pretty much nullifies the,"We're from the Gov and here to help you".

orpington Member	# Posted: 22 Jan 2021 09:10pm Reply Well ideally I had wanted to put the cabin on the highest point which is less than 50% the depth of the land. If I go beyond that high point I donâ€™t have to go much further until the structure would be completely hidden by the peak. Very good. Now I donâ€™t have to deal with the residential lot BS and finding my taxes would go up. Even if it could still remain forestland which is debatable, a basic cabin would quintuple my taxes. Now any idea what it takes to excavate a road 4WD accessible, cost per foot and if I have a gate at the end with No Trespassing signs no one has the right to enter, Correct? These liberal states create these gestapo regulations and the end result is you have to get creative. I really need land with my cabin in Virginia instead.

gcrank1 Member	# Posted: 22 Jan 2021 09:57pm Reply Here in WI the assessor has the right to enter your property and check it out, but not enter buildings unless you agree. And they can do it when you are not there. You may want to check the assessor stuff where you are. Iirc, if you have something not 'permitted' they can charge you double of what the permit would have cost; your penalty for not complying. Or, they can require you to tear it down or bill you for them arranging to have it torn down. Not sure if they 'fine' you the permit fee when they 'require' the tear down too.... But it is all for our, and our neighbor's, safety.

orpington Member	# Posted: 23 Jan 2021 05:25am - Edited by: orpington Reply Well thereâ€™s no structures on the propertyâ€™s and never have been. Just an area where logging trucks parked in 2018 when I had it logged. Amazingly, itâ€™s overgrown already and no way even 4 WD could get back very far, never mind some piles of slash. So, I could put a gate in the staging area and run a road back over the hill accessible by 4WD. Probably need a permit for that as that would be somewhat evident. No doubt, as a previous poster alluded to, itâ€™s all about â€˜safetyâ€™. â€˜Safetyâ€™, regulations, call it what you will = more money for the tax coffers & less personal freedom. Modern society doesnâ€™t exactly promote an off the grid lifestyle.

Steve_S Member	# Posted: 23 Jan 2021 07:13am Reply I find it funny that people are ranting and raving about rules & regs and even evoking Gestapo'isms... Seriously ? While 75-80% of people would do things properly & safely without regulations as such because they want a good, safe residence that will not cause themselves or anyone else harm or create a risk. There is always those that believe they should do whatever / however they please without consideration. Because of the Small Amount of Fools, the Majority have to suffer the consequences of their actions. It only takes a Few Irresponsible idiots causing enough stupidity to push a Government into have to set Rules, Regs & Legislations for the greater good of everyone, collectively. If you want to ZAP Blame at anyone, Target the idiots who cause the havoc in the first place and ruin things for the masses. Sadly, the Powerhungry also take advantage and put their "thumb print" onto the rules and of course the Bean Counter's are always looking for ways to leverage more taxes out of folks and that often means tacking on stuff for Rules & Regs and size minimums etc... There are MANY MEMBERS in this forum who have Witnessed Totally Bodged Builds that should have never ever been allowed to happen. Goodness Gracious, there have been some Doozie's !

Irrigation Guy Member	# Posted: 23 Jan 2021 08:30am Reply Quoting: Fanman Ha! I live in Connecticut and detest the bureaucracy of NY, where my cabin is. Though in this case it's probably the town building code, not the state. In some CT towns you can put up a "shed", if it's not on a permanent foundation it requires no permit at all. If you're out of sight from the road (seems easy with 25 acres), who's to know how or when you're using it? I would agree a lot has to do with the particular town. Where my cabin is the town couldnâ€™t have been more accommodating to my cabin ideas, building inspector said they are just happy to have people spending money in town. Where I live on Long Island things are much different when it comes to building things. My ire for Connecticut comes from their property tax that taxes not only land and houses but cars, boats, lawn mowers, excavators, weed wackers, etc. also the red tape to get a trade license was a nightmare when I lived there.

orpington Member	# Posted: 23 Jan 2021 08:49am Reply Itâ€™s my land. If I want to put up a botched structure, shouldnâ€™t that be my choice? Besides, itâ€™s just a cabin, not a full time residence. Being desirous to be off the grid, you canâ€™t screw up electricity or plumbing. Get your footings deeper than the frost line, use a level when you build, and install the roof properly. Whatâ€™s the problem?

gcrank1 Member	# Posted: 23 Jan 2021 09:27am - Edited by: gcrank1 Reply The real problem is that this is the way it is and you have few to no options to stay compliant. I well understand the irk (Ive had more than a little of that myself and I still think for good reason) but it isnt going to change anything, this snowball has gone too far. It comes down to this: 1) you are compliant to it 2) you arent and accept that there may (or likely will) be consequences. Btw, if there has been an access in from the road you may already have a pre-existing 'driveway' and not need a new permit. How ya gonna know? In my case there has been one for at least a decade before we bought last summer, and a mailbox and fire number (the latter required if there is a structure so the VFD knows where to go if needed). I havent asked if there was a permit for the driveway....with all that in place why would a reasonable person. Yours may not be so obvious, though. In many places here you can no longer legally build a simple off-grid dry cabin on your own land, you have to build a small house, to all the permits and codes. So, you say you will park your rv, camper, whatever they and use that. Nope, some places have 'no more than 14 days in one place' then you gotta move it out for a while and come back. Ok, I'll just come, set up my tent and camp out from time to time. Nope, you can't camp on your own land. Looks like in a lot of cases 'your own land' is only a taxable 'asset' that you cant do anything with......

Steve_S Member	# Posted: 23 Jan 2021 10:16am Reply Everything related to a building or constructing a building CAN BE SCREWED UP ! Never underestimate the ability for people to create a disaster. I've seen places slip OFF their foundations. Cabins wired with electrical extension cords "inside walls". Houses with "wire nests" of 14G house wire all brought together and connected with marettes into "bundles" during retrofits by fools. Floors which "Bounce" like a trampoline because there is no supports or even worse.... Worst I saw Personally, 2x4 exterior walls with studs @ 36" OC because derwood was trying to save money.... Luckily it blew over in a big wind storm while noone was in it.... thank goodness. https://www.familyhandyman.com/list/100-super-scary-home-inspector-nightmare-photos/ There are Thousands of similar Real World examples.

toyota_mdt_tech Member	# Posted: 23 Jan 2021 10:41am - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech Reply OK, I am taking advantage of a tax break, I fit under timber status. One need 20 acres or more (19.5 rounded up works). For my cabin, they removed 1 acre, even though it takes much less, but that may have been the minimum. I still am under timer status, as long as I dont remove more than 20%, so technically, I can take out another acre. I did buy the adjoining 20 acres, so I have 40 acres and can remove 4 acres and still remain in timber status. If I remove the 4 acres on the front 20, I cant ever sell or separate it from my ownership or I would lose my tax break on my front 20, but I could remove 2 acres from each lot. Interesting that they cut out 2 acres. I think you are safe. But double check. In my state, they appreicate timberland and wildlife habitat and do help out for landowners to keep it as timber. We also have farm land, pasture, grasslands, those are all tax breaks. But if its farming, you better have crops and if its pasture, you better have some animals on it. My entire 40 acres if not for the cabin would be about $64 a year. Even with the cabin, still pretty cheap. I have done it with the intention if keeping it cheap to keep after retirement. I did have to hire a professional Forrester to draw up a forest management plan at a cost, it must be renewed every 10 years.

Aklogcabin Member	# Posted: 23 Jan 2021 10:58am Reply I also feel that we do not need more government because there's idiots in the world. The same folks will continue to break rules. Their the same ones who park in handicap zones n such. The , well someone might get hurt alarm. The average guy can't even build a little cabin for his family. Its often asked what's a person going to do? Next election ask about regulation reform. I suspect that the majority of cabins on this forum would not pass current building codes. Maybe we should consider having to tear them all down. I don't mean to insult anyone. Just really tired of good people who continue to loose their rights because of others who continue to disregard any codes they want to. Doesn't have to be oh well that's how it is. Each time I visit the lower 48 I realize why I live in AK. Now i have consider moving further from Anchorage. I hope you all have the opportunity to visit your cabins soon. Orpington sorry about jacking your thread. Just wish you could enjoy the cabin of , your, dreams.

orpington Member	# Posted: 23 Jan 2021 05:08pm Reply Regulation in Connecticut is at the discretion of the individual town, so, obviously, YMMV. It is as debatable to begin with whether or not I even put a cabin in given the > 50% setback, and the costs associated with a long road of sorts. The possible mad rush to do this was to avoid unknown differences, which cannot be good when nothing is considered to be a cabin. I can even understand the need to have a building inspector assess the construction of a basic structure, minus electricity, plumbing, and septic fi les. Conversely, isnâ€™t my right to frame up a roof 36â€ on center with 1 x 2s and commit suicide when the roof caves in the first major snowstorm. But I digress. Iâ€™m just not sure how one can be mandated to have septic fields and electricity? Goes right against affordability and environmentally sound off the grid living. I guess the key to all this is to avoid these overregulated states, and without being able too political, they tend to lean Democratic. So, my options, other than the orthodox ones. Get the structure that is small built over the ridge in the future. Risk vs minimal (10 to 14 days a year) reward makes this not worth it. Then you can pitch a tent. Wife wonâ€™t like that, Iâ€™m not fond of it either. So, I have to either find a place that is grandfathered in or do what my wife wants and get a condo at the beach, which isnâ€™t exactly remote. Itâ€™s particularly troubling that over regulation forces folks to seek other options and, in the end, it hurts local businesses as if the Iâ€™m not there, Iâ€™m not spending my money locally, in a state that is in fiscal crisis.

gcrank1 Member	# Posted: 23 Jan 2021 05:37pm Reply Just this past Sept were losing the family farm and cabin we hand built in 83-84 from the repurposed 1896 barn. We were attached to the place, as one will get when you have been on a piece of ground over time. And at our age (geezer and geezerette) the question came up of if a cabin was even something we should still be doing. We thought about things like renting cottages and cabins in new places to visit/explore, traveling with the rv, etc. but the idea of having a getaway chunk of ground was still attractive, and we found the 'new' property end of Aug of 2019/closed beginning of Aug 2020. Yep, 11 months in the making, and it had an offgrid, dry, rough cabin on it already (grandfathered and on the tax roll). All we had figured to get was a suitable chunk of land in a 'friendly' township but we got the cabin kinda 'thrown in'. I just heard recently that to build costs on average twice as much as buying something already built. A lot of 'it depends' in that but you get the idea. There are places out there and if this one you have is just going to cause you aggravation it might be time to move on to a more friendly chunk of ground.

Irrigation Guy Member	# Posted: 23 Jan 2021 07:23pm Reply Quoting: gcrank1 I just heard recently that to build costs on average twice as much as buying something already built. A lot of 'it depends' in that but you get the idea. I would agree with this statement. I for sure could have bought cheaper than what is costing me to build my place and I am not even done. That is if what I want exists where I want to be. Also if you buy you need all the money upfront because most of these places wonâ€™t qualify for a regular mortgage.

Fanman Member	# Posted: 23 Jan 2021 08:55pm Reply Quoting: Steve_S # Posted: 23 Jan 2021 10:16 Reply Quote Everything related to a building or constructing a building CAN BE SCREWED UP ! Never underestimate the ability for people to create a disaster. I've seen places slip OFF their foundations. Cabins wired with electrical extension cords "inside walls". Houses with "wire nests" of 14G house wire all brought together and connected with marettes into "bundles" during retrofits by fools. Yup. I'm working on the wiring in my house right now. I've found lamp cord inside the ceiling feeding light fixtures, soldered and taped splices inside the walls with no boxes, the plumbing was a similar nightmare... and this with a local building code that requires permits for just about anything other than painting and carpeting. Not sure just how that protected me when I bought the house (years ago when I didn't know any better). Later, I was a good boy and pulled a building permit to add on a screen porch... nobody inspected it, the town doesn't care as long as they get the permit fee. At least Connecticut allows homeowners do do any and all work themselves without having to hire a licensed contractor as some other states do (as long as they pay the permit fee, of course...)

95XL883 Member	# Posted: 24 Jan 2021 10:11am Reply OP , sounds like you should start before the new rules. The new rules will almost certainly be more expensive. â€œProfessionalâ€ help is no guarantee of success or safety or good execution. Steve_S, some â€œprofessionalâ€, licensed contractor screw-ups I have seen. A junction of 120 VAC wires not in a junction box, a back feed of voltage from one of those legs making a downstream box hot, ie, the box itself bit me when I touched it, a hvac return duct made hot by a 120 vac cable next to it being punctured by a sheetrock screw (this one was next too a bath tub, lucky It was found without anybody in the water.), new copper line that held for two days then a joint let go (temp the whole time was 70 plus), window companies that order the wrong size windows and then try to cover it up by filling in the framing with more framing, a foundation company pulling the forms before the concrete hardened, a carpentry crew then building on that failed foundation, drain lines obstructed during construction, the main drain line installed with a slight reverse slope (that was a mess for the new homeowner), an indoor swimming pool in a tight new house (the amount of mold and moss within a month was amazing), houses built on fill and then collapsed, walls framed with no cross bracing and all windows (another collapse). Super tight homes without ventilation that then molded badly. I am stopping now because I keep remembering more. The point is more regulation doesnâ€™t guarantee a well-built structure.

Brettny Member	# Posted: 24 Jan 2021 11:48am Reply Quoting: orpington Besides, itâ€™s just a cabin, not a full time residence. Being desirous to be off the grid, you canâ€™t screw up electricity or plumbing. Get your footings deeper than the frost line, use a level when you build, and install the roof properly. Whatâ€™s the problem? Build the biggest "shed" you can under the limit for a permit. I would also find out what's involved with getting a permit for a shed. What do they consider a "garage"? The size of the door? Theres ways to get what you want for minimal grief but there not going to tell you how to be in the gray area. Also what determines "living in"? 60days per year? 4 days at a time? Ask the right questions and I'm sure you can find a way.

gcrank1 Member	# Posted: 24 Jan 2021 03:40pm Reply Around here a 'dwelling' is any place that you can cook, eat or sleep in. Pretty much a catch-all IF they want to lean on somebody for camping in their shed. Some places you can put up the garage first (makes sense for materials, supplies & tools) and build 'the house' within x amount of time. This is to preclude someone camping out in the garage for years on end. They got it covered, it depends upon enforcement. A simple, small, easy to move 'shed' on skids or on wheels like my 8x12 'ice shanty' tucked out of sight may not get noticed or cared about, especially if you are on good terms with the neighbors. If it turns into a problem it could 'disappear' pretty quick. Inside some 'woodlot tools', a camp stove, a fold to the wall cot (for a nap after doing woodlot maintenance ), etc. might be excusable. Make it look like a developed/developing cabin in the woods might not.

orpington Member	# Posted: 24 Jan 2021 07:01pm Reply 8 x 12 isn't very big. 96 ft sq Back in the day, land was approaching $20,000 an acre up there and then the bottom fell out. Now it struggles to bring $5000 an acre which is why I bought this property years ago, after the bottom fell out. Seemed worth a bit over $4000 an acre to me. Until this. No wonder why states like Connecticut struggle to survive and folks bail out. Overregulated and overtaxed. No wonder they struggle with the bottom line. I don't live there. How can you afford to. I guess in time I'll haul in a ~100 ft sq structure in the dead of the night. Maybe. Isn't much fun when your wife wants a bit more. This readjustment of the ordinances seems to want to drive out the concept of a cabin. Of the grid living was eliminated years ago, vis a vis needing a septic tank and fields for a cabin. Somehow the country survived without electricity and indoor plumbing for decades, along without codes and building inspectors, and folks survived to see the next day.

gcrank1 Member	# Posted: 24 Jan 2021 08:13pm Reply 8x12 is my repurposed ice shanty as the tool/supply/ power house, but I could solo in it just fine. Actually we both could, at one time we traveled in a diy 'camper' van; full size Ford, sliding side door, bunk each side with a narrow passage between with room for sliding out boxes beneath. We did that 30 yrs ago. Put a few re-decked pallets down outside as a deck and a few hooks on the outside walls to hang some truckers tarps and Id have a camp. A little utility shed would keep the, ummm, utility stuff out of the inside. We've spent a goodly amount of time in nylon and canvas tents too so the shanty would be a real micro-cabin. Our 1st real cabin was 12x24 c/w 12x12 'sleeping' loft, the current one 16x24, open cath ceiling, rough sawmill board/post & beam construction. Both too big to move but nice 'living space' for a couple. Maybe something in between in size that is still trailerable (think portable shed sizes for road width reg's) that you build with salvaged materials to keep cost/'investment' down? Or two of them that can be close or 'dog-trot' together? If they eventually tell you they cant be there haul 'em out. Use the Boundary Waters Solution for toilet facility; ie, haul it in/haul it out, yep ocifer, we bag it....(see the Luggable Loo) and a seal top 5gal bucket for grey water. No grey or black disposal so no septic. Or a cat hole or two..... Bring a fully charged deep cycle battery along to hook up to pre-wired 12vdc LED lights, a cig lighter socket and usb port and you have power. Eventually you could maybe put a solar panel on a roof to keep it charged inside but taking it home to fully charge for occasional use there aint bad (btdt). Better to dream about possibilities and success than dwell on the negatives.

orpington Member	# Posted: 24 Jan 2021 08:41pm Reply I'll figure something out. Amazing all this regulation for a "cabin" and yet new houses are absolute junk. Fake hollow cardboard doors are okay for some reason.