Building My First Cabin...But Will I Go To Jail?

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jtcabinbuilder Member	# Posted: 20 Aug 2018 11:44pm Reply Hey guys, Iâ€™m sure the title has you all a little curious so let me explain. Iâ€™ve been interested in building a cabin for years and have always built things on my property. However, for the past several years Iâ€™ve had a fantasy-for lack of better words-about building a settlers cabin deep in the forest on public lands. I live in an area where I could easily build a hidden cabin if I avoid using my chainsaws, and limited things to manual tools. But hereâ€™s the motivation behind this project. I want to build this cabin in honor of someone else that I love dearly, but who is no longer part of my life. Itâ€™s a very strong inspiration, and has been festering inside of me for the better part of 15 years. My question is, has anyone here ever done anything like this? Have any of you built on public lands like our forefathers did 200+ years ago? Maybe one of you will talk some sense in to me on this one, and maybe some of you are ave even been in a similar position and can give me some wisdom. Thanks.

hattie Member	# Posted: 21 Aug 2018 02:04am Reply Loggers, off-roaders, hunters, or conservation officers will find it. You may think it won't be found, but it will be. There are some cabins in the mountains behind us and many people know about them. It isn't as easy as you think to keep something like that hidden. You need to get in and out to work on the cabin and that will leave tracks and broken branches, etc. It will be found. I agree it sounds like a very fun idea but not too practical. If you are lucky no one will vandalize the cabin and it will be there for a very long time. If a conservation officer finds it, they may tear it down.

toyota_mdt_tech Member	# Posted: 21 Aug 2018 08:56am Reply Hunters seem to eventually stumble upon everything. Easy solution to do what you are doing legally, just get a small mining claim. Build cabin, have access to it etc. Solved, just be working a mine or look like it. Renew on time too.

FishHog Member	# Posted: 21 Aug 2018 08:58am Reply If you have to ask â€œIFâ€ then you probably shouldnâ€™t do it. Or so a wise man told me once. Not that I always follow that advice but I probably should

jtcabinbuilder Member	# Posted: 21 Aug 2018 09:38am Reply toyota_mdt_tech Thatâ€™s a great idea! I hadnâ€™t thought of that one. Iâ€™ll have to look into a claim. I agree that getting access to it will leave tracks of some sort, but I can only get a vehicle within about half a mile of it and will be hiking the rest. Beyond that Iâ€™m hoping to really hide it in the thick forests so that it isnt noticed, even if you walk 50 feet from it. Iâ€™m hoping that I can build it well enough that no forestry officer would tear it down, but who knows. My goal is for it to stand as a testament to this woman for decades longer than I am even alive.

Atlincabin Member	# Posted: 21 Aug 2018 10:14am Reply The mining claim route isn't as easy as it used to be. Nowadays you have to file more paperwork (with the BLM/forest service or whatever agency oversees the land) and pay fees every year to keep your claim, plus do the required "assessment" work. Used to be the assessment work could be "looking like you were mining" but it has become much more difficult to fake this for more than a few years before the authorities will bust you. (I say this as someone who has been involved with minerals/mining in the US for 45 years - if you are elsewhere, I'm not as familiar with the regs but you should find out such details).

toyota_mdt_tech Member	# Posted: 21 Aug 2018 10:20am Reply Quoting: jtcabinbuilder Iâ€™m hoping that I can build it well enough that no forestry officer would tear it down, but who knows. My goal is for it to stand as a testament to this woman for decades longer than I am even alive. Well, once you abandon the claim, if the cabin is left behind, they will burn it to the ground. Just keep renewing it. Also a claim gives you full access, ie a path, not a road always, but a way in (cant be blocked) All legal, just start digging a hole, frame with some timbers and dig a little out each year, some tailings in a pile and it will be all legal and mark no trespassing, ie a mining claim. ITS like YOUR OWN CHUNK OF PRIVATE PROPERTY. Good luck.

jtcabinbuilder Member	# Posted: 21 Aug 2018 10:23am Reply Atlincabin Thanks for the insight. Iâ€™m in Northern CA, in a mining rich region, but like almost everything in CA the environmental agencies have their hands in the pot and may not be as lenient as other states. Iâ€™m wondering at this point if itâ€™s best to go to the forest service office and have a â€œwink winkâ€ conversation with somebody, or if I should just ask forgiveness after the fact.

jtcabinbuilder Member	# Posted: 21 Aug 2018 10:25am Reply toyota_mdt_tech This wouldnâ€™t be too far fetched as Iâ€™ll be using the local rock for a chimney and foundation.

Just Member	# Posted: 21 Aug 2018 12:04pm Reply Two guys tryed that mining thing in Ontario on the crown land were we hunt moose MNR tore it down two years later. It was well hidden but someone must have told them . Not sure what happend to them never did see them .

ICC Member	# Posted: 21 Aug 2018 02:54pm Reply 1. Quoting: jtcabinbuilder Iâ€™m wondering at this point if itâ€™s best to go to the forest service office... That statement makes it seem like the spot you have in mind is within a National Forest. Good luck with trying to build secretly and stay hidden. The FS will find you and will not be happy. Actually there was a guy who lived in the woods in a NF near enough me. He lived in a cave in a hard to access spot. He was a thief, stealing food and supplies from cabins in the area. Actually lived for short periods in cabins that were closed for the winter. He shot a deputy and was eventually killed in a shootout. He turned out to be a murderer wanted in Canada. The FS did start a cabin-in-the-woods program back in 1915, but stopped issuing new permits in the 50's or 60's. They charged a lease fee, usually with a 20 year term. Those still come up for sale occasionally. They come with a bunch of rules and you never own the land, only the improvements. But that program would seem to negate the desire to go build secretly, where you don't belong. 2. You can not stake a mining claim on NF land. So forget the NF lands. I believe the BLM is the landlord of the lands where you might still be able to file a mining claim. In parts of the west old mining claims are bought and sold and used as cabin sites. There are many places like that in the Durango, Silverton, Ouray area. Last year a friend bought a 5 acre claim for $60K. Big enough money and folks know where you are, so again, that doesn't seem to fit the stated fantasy. 3. Question? Why do you think you should be able to pick a spot on public lands, build something and get to keep it? If it's in the lower 48 I do not think you should be able to do that. Maybe in Alaska? I believe they still do homesteading but it is a state program, not federal and you probably have to live in the state for a while first. 4. Quoting: jtcabinbuilder like our forefathers did 200+ years ago? It's not the same world it was 200+ years ago. The main thing is there are too many people now to be able to do the "free spirit" thing and build in any place you just feel like. The public lands belong to all of us. That means to be able to visit, preserve and use as recreation property. At least as long as the federal government does not start selling off the National Forests or Parks. And if they were to sell portions of the public lands then that land becomes private and a genuine no-go zone.

jtcabinbuilder Member	# Posted: 21 Aug 2018 05:33pm Reply ICC Some more great insight, and I completely agree. Iâ€™m not a robbing murderer and have no plans to become one so thatâ€™s not my reason to keep the cabin hidden. I want to keep it hidden so that it can remain a small secret. A hidden gem that people discover over time and can enjoy. Let me clarify though, I donâ€™t intend to lay claim to this structure. I have 3 main reasons to build this. 1 its been a lifelong dream to build a cabin deep in the area that I plan to build. Itâ€™s the most beautiful place I can think of and has always been very special to me. 2 I want to dedicate something this special to a woman that I love, but I donâ€™t want her to know I built it. My name will not be associated at all, but it will be clearly dedicated to her. 3 I want to build this to pay homage to the people who led unbelievably hard lives trying to settle this country. This will give me a small glimpse at what they endured, but hopefully will also be something that the public will enjoy and will remind a modern generation of a more primitive time. Itâ€™s public land and I donâ€™t intend to lock down any piece of it for myself.

Bret Member	# Posted: 21 Aug 2018 06:18pm Reply My idea: Sounds like a great place to pitch a tent and stay awhile. You can build a small monument of some sort as a remembrance.

toyota_mdt_tech Member	# Posted: 21 Aug 2018 06:20pm Reply Camping in USFS land is only good for 7 days, then you need to move to another location. But if you don't mind a little move, stay as long as you want too.

ICC Member	# Posted: 21 Aug 2018 07:47pm Reply toyota_mdt_tech I believe we are talking about dispersed camping, right? Iâ€™ve never seen a 7 day rule. That might be applicable to some particular place or section of some particular national forest. The basic USFS rule seems to be 14 days in one place but I have seen 16 days as the limit; Fishlake NF in UT is 16 days in one spot. Then you must move at least 5 road miles before camping again. And you can not return to any same spot within a year. Other places I have been have used the 14 day rule. I seem to remember some eastern NF that had a 14 day rule with something about a maximum in any one month. What it comes down to withdispersed camping is that it is best to check with the NF you intend to visit. Various other rules for distances from roads, waterways, established campgrounds, etc. On BLM land, the norm seems to be a maximum stay of 14 days out of 28 with the need to move at least 25 miles (straight line miles, not road miles) with other rules in play as well.

cspot Member	# Posted: 21 Aug 2018 07:51pm Reply The National Forest here you can camping is limited to 14 out of 21 days.

DaveBell Moderator	# Posted: 21 Aug 2018 07:59pm Reply There is one spot where you can squat in the U.S. The Slabs, Niland, CA. Look at it on Google maps, satellite view. Find Niland and then move north east towards the Chocolate Mountains and the aqueduct. Used to be WWII tank and artillery place for Patton. Camp Dunlap.

toyota_mdt_tech Member	# Posted: 21 Aug 2018 08:43pm Reply Quoting: ICC The basic USFS rule seems to be 14 days in one place ICC, you are probably right, I was going on old memory. I knew there was a limit.

ICC Member	# Posted: 21 Aug 2018 08:51pm - Edited by: ICC Reply Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech I was going on old memory. I know all about old memory. Mom & Dad took me on my first camping (fishing) trip when I was a year old, from what I am told. That was a little over 70 years ago. It does not help that the rules have little variances from one NF to another.

ICC Member	# Posted: 21 Aug 2018 08:54pm - Edited by: ICC Reply Jtcabinbuilder, Quoting: jtcabinbuilder Itâ€™s the most beautiful place I can think of and has always been very special to me. So this place is only special to you? There is nobody else who has ever felt the same emotions about it? Or, somehow you feel you are special and get whatever you want, no matter what? Quoting: jtcabinbuilder I want to dedicate something this special to a woman that I love, but I donâ€™t want her to know I built it There are many legal and inoffensive ways to dedicate something special to someone you love. This can be achieved anonymously too and be of benefit to many others. To do as you desire is, to me, not an expression of love but rather is an expression of selfishness. -------------- If you feel a need to build a cabin, do like the rest of us. Get a piece of land you can call your own; most have boughtand a lucky few have inherited. Leave the great expanses of public land as they are. One of the basic tenets of public lands use is to leave it as you found it. That way whatever you love about a particular place remains, to be enjoyed by whoever chances upon it in the future. Perhaps inquire about helping to build or maintain a camping shelter along one of the many long distance trails. After asking and getting permission of course. -------------- Quoting: jtcabinbuilder I want to build this to pay homage to the people who led unbelievably hard lives trying to settle this country. This has been done already. They are called museums and historic villages. Some date back to colonial times. They abound across the country, California has many. Get involved with something like the California Historical Society if you want to do something that helps remember the history of the state, the sacrifices people made to get to California. State parks systems often have volunteer archaeology program; look into that. California State Parks has a volunteer program where a person can make a contribution that can be appreciated by many, rather than just you or the few people who may stumble across it. You are assuming that people who may stumble across this cabin dream of yours will see it as a positive addition to what was once an undisturbed special place. It is a more or less undisturbed place isnâ€™t it --- it at least seems that it must be from your description. Anyhow I believe this is one of the worst ideas ever floated on this forum. You asked --- Quoting: jtcabinbuilder Maybe one of you will talk some sense in to me on this one,

Princelake Member	# Posted: 22 Aug 2018 06:47am Reply I tried getting a lease or land use permits anscsuch here in Ontario but the government doesn't give them out anymore. I was super annoyed and I made up plans to kind of do what your talking about. I had plans made up and I had searched this area with great fishing and very few people went but I didn't have the balls to go through with it. My main reason being is that up at my buddies camp people tried doing that on his lake. Made them lake access only and tucked up in the bush. People ending up taking anything good and trashing them cause people on the lake weren't happy that they were staying for free. I was patient and ended up coming across a private lease not through the government. It's a bit sketch but happy to have a piece of property on a beautiful lake. When I go to build my cabin I will keep in mind that the deal can go sour.

Atlincabin Member	# Posted: 22 Aug 2018 10:11am Reply Quoting: ICC 2. You can not stake a mining claim on NF land. Just to clarify, unless the rules have changed recently, this is not true. Mining claims can be staked on virtually any federal land except National Parks. Very common to have claimed ground on NF land. One can even stake claims on National Monument lands (though they would be unlikely to ever get developed so nobody does this). All this governed by the Mining Law of 1872. Everyone across the spectrum thinks this needs changed, but nobody is willing to try to change it for fear that their "side" will "lose" something in any new version. All that said, I agree with the advice not to try to pursue this project as you originally laid it out. You will only end up with trouble.

toyota_mdt_tech Member	# Posted: 22 Aug 2018 10:18am Reply Quoting: Atlincabin Very common to have claimed ground on NF land In fact, its the only place I have seen them.

ICC Member	# Posted: 22 Aug 2018 10:33am Reply I stand corrected on that. However, the USFS land rules are a little different from those that cover BLM lands. I doubt it would be worth the effort and expense to jump through the hoops necessary if the goal was to just build a cabin. One needs to submit an operational plan and the plan must be approved. As soon as machinery is involved the land surface gets disturbed and that is what kicks in some of the must-do's and don't-do's. There are regulations in effect that were implemented in addition to the 1872 Act, in 1955, 1960, 1970, 1972 and 1974. All apply just to NF lands.

NorthRick Member	# Posted: 22 Aug 2018 04:07pm - Edited by: NorthRick Reply Quoting: ICC 3. Question? Why do you think you should be able to pick a spot on public lands, build something and get to keep it? If it's in the lower 48 I do not think you should be able to do that. Maybe in Alaska? I believe they still do homesteading but it is a state program, not federal and you probably have to live in the state for a while first. No more homesteading up here either. The state occasionally runs a land staking program but there are rules and requirements that go along with it, including being a resident. People do building cabins on public land and abuse the mining claim laws. When these get discovered they are usually burned down by the land managers.

ICC Member	# Posted: 22 Aug 2018 05:32pm Reply OK maybe I'm all wet on the mining claims thing with regards to USFS land. I have never felt a desire to mine or make a mining claim. I do know the USFS does not tolerate ordinary squatters. That has been tried near me and was stopped. The FS was left with having to burn it one winter. However, the fact remains that building on public land without express permission is not legal and as far as I am concerned it is not moral either. Whether or not it would be proper to use mining claim laws to make a cabin in the woods, when there is no intent to mine is another story. If we use the example of people in the San Juans of CO buying and selling old mining claim properties for purely recreational use as some sort of precedent it would seem a possible route to take. The main difference between the proposal of using mining claim laws to make a new claim, a new getaway spot and the old mining claims is the age and the fact that the old claims were made for actual mining purposes. Anyhow, leaving the mining claim "subterfuge" out of the picture and getting back to the original question of whether or not it would be okay to build something on public lands, even if there is no intent to claim the property later, I still think it is wrong and should be discouraged.

cspot Member	# Posted: 22 Aug 2018 05:39pm Reply Another food for thought. I know around me there are places of the National Forest that have some private land parcels that are landlocked in the middle of the National Forest. Only way to get to them is by walking or for some they may have an easement and access road. Anyway since these parcels are landlocked they usually sell pretty cheap. You could buy one of them or something that borders public land and build the cabin. If I am going thru the hassle of building a cabin, I don't think I would want to risk ending up in jail or having it burned. Seems like going thru the mining claim hassle would be a pain in the butt to me.

hattie Member	# Posted: 22 Aug 2018 10:27pm - Edited by: hattie Reply In B.C., Canada placer miners are NOT allowed to build cabins or permanent structures on their claims. They can put in a camper or pitch a tent, but permanent cabins are a no-no. If you go this route you had better check the mining regulations in the area where you plan to build. There is also more to it than just saying you are working your claim. You need a free miner's license and you must prepare a detailed report annually of all the work you have done and the results of that work. Also, if you have your mining license and have land staked, the Mining Commissioner may send his peeps out to check on you occasionally. I am a free miner and these are the rules here in BC Canada.

Atlincabin Member	# Posted: 23 Aug 2018 09:59am Reply ICC, the difference in places like the San Juans is that the mining claims there are patented, meaning that the title to the surface rights was deeded to someone long ago by the US government. Therefore, these claims are now private land within the NF or BLM or wherever. Very similar to when folks homesteaded farmland, only these were for mining purposes. I used to have a house on one in central Colorado. The last time the government did this (deeded the rights to private party) was in the 1970s. Some folks staked claims in a creek near the future Keystone ski area and somehow had friends in high places or bribes or who knows, but they got deeded the land and made a fortune by selling it for condo development. Never any intention of mining. There was such an outcry over the Keystone incident that the government stopped granting patents for mining claims. Now even the big mining companies are not able to get patents on claims. So, the only possible route to legally using a mining claim long-term is to purchase a patented claim, just like buying a lot in town.

ICC Member	# Posted: 23 Aug 2018 10:27am - Edited by: ICC Reply Atlincabin, thanks for that. It helps make sense. My friend had learned that back in the 70's the family of the person who was the agent for the sale of the claim site he bought last year had bought 44 such claims of various sizes for $100K.

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