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Rickant
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# Posted: 20 Jan 2018 06:55am
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Well, we’ve had our cabin since September and thanks to the awesome weather this year we were able to enjoy it for a few weeks before closing it up. So we just got the first hydro bill from September until now.
$2. Plus $124 in delivery fees, service fees and taxes!
I had to take my turn as a new owner lol.
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 20 Jan 2018 08:18am
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$124 just for having the lines to the metre.... doesn't that just rub you against the grain ? 3 Months fees though so not that bad.
So figure 500 a year (at current rate) for delivery fees
Who knows what your actually will use yet so tax & use cost is unknown...
If you only used $2 worth of power, seems nearly pointless to pay for grid connections just for that... I dunno, I'd be sitting with notepad & figuring that out... and you know, Hydro never goes down so.....
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Rickant
Member
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# Posted: 20 Jan 2018 10:25am
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Yeah we did think about it, but I figure I’d need 5 or 6k for solar. So it would take a long time to recoup
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 20 Jan 2018 05:20pm
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If all you used was $2 worth of juice, how in the world did you come up with 5-6kw of solar ? That's a lot of panel - juice potential.
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Rickant
Member
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# Posted: 20 Jan 2018 06:14pm
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Well, newbie uneducated estimate. Would need something to run fridge, water pump, hot water tank, lights, fans, fan on separrett toilet . Appliances are not very efficient. So wild a$$ guess for simple but reliable setup.
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 21 Jan 2018 07:02am
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You have at least one power hog there that may be worth reconsideration... the electric Water Tank - that eats power. Might be worth taking a power inventory and have a look at what / how you can cut wastage down. Conserving is far cheaper than other options, including being held hostage by Hydro Co.
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Rickant
Member
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# Posted: 21 Jan 2018 08:37am
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Yeah. Interestingly in the fall we didn’t have running water because the pump was pooched when we bought the play place and the grey water system as well. So we didn’t use the hot water tank or pump, only hydro was lights, fridge and stove. It’s doable for sure but I think we will need hot water.
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 21 Jan 2018 09:13am
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On-Demand electric is better but on-demand LPG wins on power / energy saving too... especially when you buy the propane when it's cheap (ie, not during a cold blast in midst of winter : but it's a petro derivative so subject to swings with oil prices)
I have an Eccotemp FVI-12 LPG which is a cheaper model, ok for hot water but their support sucks... I have a Takagi TH3M LPG on-demand heater for my radiant system, works great, good support too !
Fridges now days can be very efficient, my Danby only uses 280 kw or so in a whole year. They have even more efficient ones now at the same price.
Stoves can be really bad for power... older coils use lot's. Best Electric ones are "Induction" Types unlike quartz or coil. Ideally again, LPG which can run your hot water... use only what you use, waste not and LPG won't go bad sitting there till you use it. Propane stoves can be pricey but in the states you can get much cheaper ones than we can here in Canada.
Ohhh well, you have a couple of winter months to ponder, research and discuss while pondering more...
Something about being off-grid - solar... independence & freedom eh ! The grid can fail, power rates can jump, storms / events can hit and disrupt everything but as a stand-alone your unaffected by those externalities. Something kinda cool when you drive down the road and no one has power and they're doing their standard freak out and you get home, fridge is whirring away, lights come on, you can sit at the puter & read the news or watch your TV while everyone else panics... and then your not worried about your frozen things thawing and going to waste etc etc etc... and you know... THAT has a value beyond just buckaroo's ! Peace of Mind and more. Your not stuck to one Dealer for your Power Addiction, who can raise prices and fees whenever they feel the need / want or desire.
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Rickant
Member
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# Posted: 21 Jan 2018 12:23pm
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is it reasonable to keep an electric fridge and/or range with a solar setup? What about the water pump? We've always been a bit fearful of propane, not to mention I would have to cart whatever size bottle - like. 40lber? How long would something like that last if it was running a fridge?
Since we are just getting started with the cabin and have 4 small kids, we are a bit leaning toward the easy button for now. That being said, we always talked about being off grid during the very lengthy search and find process!
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 21 Jan 2018 01:18pm
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My water heaters & cookstove = LPG. LPG appliances are Convertible to Biogas which was the original plan but life / health changes changed plans. I wouldn't run a fridge on LPG though... I never liked LPG fridges so didn't go there, I have an electric Dandy (aka Magic Chef is them too). The fridge is newish (2014) and energy star certified, soft start motor on it too (I did not know that when bought it), so no problem with solar batteries taking a hit. Can't say how much LPG a fridge uses (depends on size, age and how much in/out there is & features) but it's constant output of CO2 so.....
Electric cookstoves are not good for solar, resistance heating is most inefficient, just like those evil baseboard heaters. Think 240 volts - 6000+ watts != good. Like an electric clothes dryer, or water tank heater - these are appliances that make Power Co's LOTS of Money ! especially the Water Tanks as they run 10-15 minutes of every hour just on standby and are typically 3000-5000 watts. That's like leaving the car idling in the drtiv3eway all day long because you "might" take a drive to the corner store... no one does that that I know and for good reason !
My water pump is a Grundfos SQ5, soft start, 120 Volt, Deep well unit. Gentle on start (no surge) and 3 stages, lots PSI and never an issue, 260' deep -> 50 gal pressure tank -> 75' line to cabin.
Up to a 100LB tank can be easily dollied about with a hand dolly / cart.
Because I have 2 On-demand water heaters (1 hot water, 2 radiant floor system) & a Unique Classic 24 cookstove I had a 360 gallon LPG setup fort the cabin. The little RV Furnace in my Pump/Powerhouse has it's own pair of tanks and it's own 12V battery & Panel just for that (one of those Coleman / Sunforce 100w jobbies which works perfect for that).
One way to look at solar and such, is simple enough. One way or another your gonna pay a bill / bills like power, gas etc... You have the choice of paying someone else for your needs or pay yourself. Power, Gas, LPG - everything only ever goes up. As solar production increases & battery tech evolves those prices are falling. So you buy today at X price and that's it, you recover that over time and no monthly output (paying power bill) which pays that off... After 5 years or whatever (different for everyone, size of kit, usage etc) the system is paid and your now paying yourself in the saving you would otherwise be giving to Mr Big Power Co. AND NO INCREASES !
LPG Safety... IF properly setup & installed, it's safer than most know... New appliances, on-demand heaters have pressure sensors and safeties in them to prevent stupid from doing stupid and to prevent accidents. Much of the fear over gas was planted into the public consciousness by electric co's back in the 60's and especially post 70's oil crisis when all governments & power co's wanted everyone to go electric. Sure there have been accidents, accidental gas leaks resulting in explosions but so rare in the 50 years. Grease fires harming people are far more common... go back < 1960 and no / few safeties, could just flip gas on without ignition and walk away letting gas flow... can't do that anymore, the safeties prevent it. Sorry, can't stick your head in the oven and gas yourself anymore.... (I know a few folks could stand to do that though, would improve the world)
I raised my daughters with Gas Cookstove in house, never an issue, nor safety concern, taught them h0ow to use it as they grew and ces't la vie, life goes on. BTW: once you cook on gas (LPG or Natural) going back to electric is hard... boy what a difference, especially when baking anything !
OOPS, got long trying to answer anticipated questions... sorry bout that but hope it helps and also answers potential Q's from lurking readers.
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 22 Jan 2018 06:11pm
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A propane fridge uses 1.25 lbs of propane a day.
Its also the easiest and most cost effective part of your kitchen to replace with solar. The savings on the fridge will more than cover the price of adding battery and panel capacity. And the savings on propane just keep adding up. While the solar cost is done once.
I'm at year 5 of using an electric fridge. I've saved around $2k in propane costs. I saved 800 going to an electric fridge and selling my propane one. Magic Chef 10cuft 400. Propane NorCold 9 cuft sold 1200.
For most of the year when there's lots of sun I use an induction cooktop. Keeps the kitchen cooler too. In the winter I use a full sized standard propane stove. Warms the kitchen, cooks my food. I also have propane hot water. I use about 1 40lber a year.
The propane fridge used 60lbs every 3-6 weeks. Depending on outside temp.
You can use an electric stove. Heck I have a dishwasher that I heat the water with electrically. But you'll need a bigger system. Plan on spending over $10,000. You will need lithium batteries.
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Rickant
Member
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# Posted: 22 Jan 2018 06:52pm
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Yikes. Sounds like an electric fridge with propane stove is the way to go. Is your hot water a tank or on-demand? We will only use the cabin 3 seasons and a lot of that will be summer weekends. Not sure I can do a 10k investment at this point when I have hydro already.
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