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paulz
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# Posted: 8 Apr 2017 02:00pm
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I've heard mention of tree thinning on properties, some mandated for fire protection etc.. My seven acres slice is covered with trees, hard to see the sky in most places. I'd love to thin it out some.
My county has strict laws for tree cutting, amount, size, type. Mine are 95% redwoods, second growth, about 100 years old. I love them but there are just too many, too damp and wet most of the time. Most are in a ring surrounding the root of the original old growth tree. I have been told that only one of these trees in a ring needs to remain, the rest are 'sister' trees and can be legally cut, but I'm not sure that's true, nor would I want to remove that many. I have also been told that the health of the remaining trees would be better if the place was thinned out.
I'm curious if any of the various government agencies, USDA, Dept.of Forestry or what have you might have a say in this matter, perhaps aiding me in the legal ability to remove some trees.
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Greenland South
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# Posted: 8 Apr 2017 03:08pm
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So, go talk to your county. All you're going to get here is someone's opinion. Not necessarily facts.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 8 Apr 2017 03:16pm
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You don't have as big of a fire hazard as you think you do. Those trees are big enough to avoid a fire unless its a crown fire. The area around them is open, no low hanging tree branches, not dense dry brush under them etc. The bark is so thick, it would also keep the tree alive in a fire more than likely. The canopy above absorbing sunlight keeping it moist and also reducing the dense understory is all good. I wouldn't cut any except those smaller ones.
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paulz
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# Posted: 8 Apr 2017 04:43pm
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Thanks guys. I know from other experiences with the county that they often defer to other agencies for input/regulations and the more you know ahead of time the better.
Yes, the fire hazard is not great, although up the hill where my cabin is located it's drier. Most of the other properties in the area with less dense groves have nice grassy meadows mixed in, makes for a beautiful area. No grass will grow with what I've got.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 8 Apr 2017 04:54pm
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Grass in later summer is yellow and a huge fire risk. What you have is the best set up. All natural fire break. Open that canopy up and in comes the sunlight and you will have a huge bunch of flammable smaller items growing in a much drier, warmer forest floor. Do you have photos of and around the cabin area?
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ICC
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# Posted: 8 Apr 2017 05:33pm
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Paul, you are in northern California if the info in your profile is correct. Contact the California Department of Forestry & Fire Protection (CAL FIRE). They should be able to advise you on tree density. FYI, the official method is by using the basal area of the trees. That is the area of the trunk when measured 4-1/2 ft above the ground. There will be a recommended range; this varies with climate and location. They will have tools (wedge prism relascope is one) or people who have enough experience and can tell pretty accurately by just walking around the land. There are also methods you can use yourself. http://www.aces.edu/pubs/docs/A/ANR-1371/ANR-1371.pdf
Your state forestry people can advise the best range of basal area per acre for your area. Basal area per acre is much more accurate than trees per acre as trees come in many sizes. 
As well, check on just what the county regs are and what the reasoning is behind those regs. If the regs are not founded in solid science, and if they are counter to what the forestry people say will make for a healthier forest, that needs to be sorted out.
Most western forests have way too many trees, unless they've been thinned by man or wildfire.
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67chevelle509
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# Posted: 8 Apr 2017 05:36pm
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http://www.treeremoval.com/tree-removal-regulations-by-state/#.WOlUeme1uiM
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 8 Apr 2017 06:42pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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I have 5 acres in the northern Sierra in Ca. I've done extensive thinning for fire safety, and cleared two small areas for a septic and my cabin. Calfire gave me a warning on the clearing I did- in Ca you cannot clear any land without a permit from Calfire- none at all. More on that below.
You can thin without a permit. Thinning is defined as removal of ground and ladder fuels, but no or very limited opening of the crown. If you want to just do thinning for fire safety, your county probably has a Fire Safe Council which gets grants to help people do thinning. You pay some, they pay the rest, they send in crews to do the work. Definitely worth looking into.
If you want to open the crown or clear any areas Calfire will consider it a timber operation and require that you get a timber harvest permit. It could be that the small area you cleared for your cabin would be enough to trigger this, in which case, if that was done without a permit they will consider it a violation and perhaps give you a warning as they did with me. If you do more without a permit they will cite you and fine you after a curt conversation with the judge.
The purpose of these regulations is to prevent people clear cutting their forest and leaving a moonscape. But they are very strict about the smallest amount of clearing, as with my example.
In the case of any kind of timber harvest where logs are sold, you are required to get a timber harvest permit, which entails an EIR and extensive work with a forester. It costs a lot of money. But there is an exception to the general rule of getting a timber harvest- it's called a Conversion Exemption.
Here's where it gets complicated. If you buy a parcel not for the intention of timber harvest but for building a house, cabin, whatever, they consider this a conversion of the property from timber production to other use. You can do so, but you still have to get a permit. But the permit is cheaper, no EIR, so it's easier. But- it has limitations. You can clear only up to 3 acres. You must hire a forester to plan it out, and a licensed timber operator (LTO) must do the work.
But the worst limitation on getting a Conversion Exemption is that you must do all the clearing that you want done within one year, and you can NEVER do any more clearing on the property in the future, ever. So you must clear everything you might ever want to clear now. If you want to build a barn over there some day, you must clear for it now, you can't clear it 5-10 years from now. They have this rule to keep administration of the rules easier for them.
In my situation this is a hardship for me. I intend to get a conversion exemption this year and have the work done this fall. I'm doing it now because my next project is a garage and I need to do a little clearing for that. But to do any clearing at all I must do all I could ever want to do. So at the same time I must clear for a potential house, potential orchard, and clearing for a small spur road to a corner of the lot. If my plans change in the future, too bad. If I never build the house, orchard, or use the spur road, the forest was cut for no reason. So it is.
I don't know if Calfire has the same policies in coastal redwood forests as they do in Sierra coniferous forests, but they probably do since the main idea is to regulate cutting of larger trees- timber harvest (whether it's your intention to sell logs or not). In your case, if any clearing was done on the land without a timber permit or conversion exemption, they may warn or cite you for a violation if they find out about it. If a conversion exemption was gotten by the previous owner, they may not allow you to cut anything, since conversions are one time things. Be aware that if you do get a conversion exemption, you can do it only once and technically never cut another crown tree.
Before you contact Calfire, I suggest you collect as much info as you can first. Best thing to do would be to get a state certified forester on the property who is experienced with Calfire and timber harvest regulations who can tell you what to expect. If you suspect that some clearing has been done without a permit, even just enough to build a small cabin, you may be opening the door to a big headache if you call in Calfire. They know the one year rule is a pain in the butt for homeowners, but they enforce it as is, because they have to.
It could be that they will let you do extensive cutting of the smaller trees that are in or near the crown, in the name of thinning for fire safety. In which case you might be able to open it up enough to achieve your desire without doing a conversion exemption. If your fire safe council does the work it will be considered thinning. If you do the work be sure you know what Calfire considers to be the difference between clearing and thinning.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 8 Apr 2017 07:19pm
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bldg_insp, man, that is crazy police state stuff. nuts. Good info, glad I'm not in Cally.
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paulz
Member
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# Posted: 8 Apr 2017 07:25pm
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Thanks all, great info. Yep I'm on the NorCal coast, at least until they tax me out of here. So CalFire is the main authority then.
I do think the redwoods are considered 'heritage trees'. I did not cut down any to build my cabin but I did cut down one for the road and a couple more that had the tops broken off by a nearby bay tree that toppled. The stumps are ground down, you would never know they were there. Before I bought the property however a house existed, built in 1960 (later demolished in a slide) and a developer also later cut some down in preparation for another house that was never built (he was caught fined), so perhaps that one time rule has been exhausted. It was listed as developed property back when, then reverted back to undeveloped after the old house came down. Zoning is A/R, agricultural residential. Unfortunately the area that was cleared is next to the road, and what was once a little used country road is now fairly heavily traveled, wouldn't want my house there.
Here's some shots from my cabin area up the hill.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 8 Apr 2017 09:24pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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Nice trees!
I'm not sure that work done before you bought the property precludes you from doing so, and my forester and logger didn't know, they seemed to think it is a vague legal issue.
Toyota- the part that I think is "police state" or "draconian" is just that there is no reason for the one year rule other than making it easier to administer. So it becomes more about their needs than the needs of those they serve. So at some point you wonder who is serving whom.
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snowho
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# Posted: 9 Apr 2017 10:41am - Edited by: snowho
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Here's the document I was given.
http://countyofplumas.com/DocumentCenter/Home/View/4694
California is crazy and Cal fire is a gestapo with crazy power over land owners. I need a lot of "personal firewood".
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NorthRick
Member
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# Posted: 12 Apr 2017 01:29am - Edited by: NorthRick
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double post
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NorthRick
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# Posted: 12 Apr 2017 01:33am
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Wow! I'm glad I am where I am. I can cut down any fool tree I want, any time I want, and the only one I have to answer to is my wife. A card carrying tree hugger. Not that I'm looking to clear cut anything. And paulz, those are some nice trees on your property.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 12 Apr 2017 08:57am
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Quoting: NorthRick Wow! I'm glad I am where I am. I can cut down any fool tree I want, any time I want, and the only one I have to answer to is me.
Dittos, almost. I dont even have to answer to the wife. But try everything to avoid cutting down a single tree. I will when thinning times comes, but will do it with reluctance. A lot to say about personal freedom.
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