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silverflash
Member
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2016 04:59pm
Reply
Per this house bill:
http://ncleg.net/Sessions/2013/Bills/House/PDF/H774v4.pdf
I can build a primitive cabin/structure without it meeting building codes:
GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NORTH C
AROLINA
SESSION 2013
SESSION LAW 2013
-
75
HOUSE BILL 774
*H774
-
v
-
4*
AN ACT TO
EXEMPT
CERTAIN PRIMITIVE ST
RUCTURES FROM THE BU
ILDING
CODE.
The General Assembly of North Carolina enacts:
SECTION 1.
G.S.
143
-
138 reads as rewritten:
"
§ 143
-
138. North Carolina State Building Code.
...
(b3)
Except as provided by
subsection (c1
)
subsections (b4) and (c1)
of this section, the
Code may contain provisions regulating every type of building or structure, wherever it might
be situated in the State.
(b4)
Building rules do not apply to (i) farm buildings that are located outside the
buil
ding
-
rules jurisdiction of any municipality,
or (ii)
(ii)
farm buildings that are located inside
the building
-
rules jurisdiction of any municipality if the farm buildings are
greenhouses.
greenhouses
,
(iii) a primitive camp
,
or (iv)
a primitive fa
rm building
.
For the
purposes of this subsection:
(1)
A
"
farm building
"
shall include any structure used or associated with equine
activities, including, but not limited to, the care, management, boarding, or
training of horses and the instruction and training of rid
ers. Structures that
are associated with equine activities include, but are not limited to, free
standing or attached sheds, barns, or other structures that are utilized to store
any equipment, tools, commodities, or other items that are maintained or
used
in conjunction with equine activities. The specific types of equine
activities, structures, and uses set forth in this subdivision are for illustrative
purposes, and should not be construed to limit, in any manner, the types of
activities, structures, or
uses that may be considered under this subsection as
exempted from building rules. A farm building that might otherwise qualify
for exemption from building rules shall remain subject only to an annual
safety inspection by the applicable city or county buil
ding inspection
department of any grandstand, bleachers, or other spectator
-
seating
structures in the farm building. An annual safety inspection shall include an
evaluation of the overall safety of spectator
-
seating structures as well as
ensuring the spect
ator
-
seating structure
'
s compliance with any building
codes related to the construction of spectator
-
seating structures in effect at
the time of the construction of the spectator
-
seating.
(2)
A
"
greenhouse
"
is a structure that has a glass or plastic roof,
has one or more
glass or plastic walls, has an area over ninety
-
five percent (95%) of which is
used to grow or cultivate plants, is built in accordance with the National
Greenhouse Manufacturers Association Structural Design manual, and is not
used for ret
ail sales. Additional provisions addressing distinct life safety
hazards shall be approved by the local building
-
rules jurisdiction.
(3)
A
"
farm building
"
shall include any structure used for the display and sale of
produce, no more than 1,000 square feet
in size, open to the public for no
more than 180 days per year, and certified by the Department of Agriculture
and Consumer Services as a Certified Roadside Farm Market.
(4)
A
"
primitive camp
"
shall include
any structure primarily used or associated
with o
utdoor camping activities, including
structures
used for
educational,
instructional, or recreational
purposes for campers
and for
management
Page
2
Session Law 2013
-
75
House Bill 774
training
,
that are
(i)
not
greater
than
4
,
000 square feet in size and
(ii)
are
not
intended to be occupied for more
than 24 hours consecutively
.
"
Structures
primarily used or associated with outdoor camping activities
"
include, but
are not limited to
,
shelters, tree stands, outhouses, sheds, rustic cabins,
campfire shelters, picnic shelters, tents, tepees or other indi
genous huts
,
support buildings used only for administrative functions and not for
activities involving campers or program participants,
and any other
structures that are utilized to store any equipment, tools, commodities
,
or
other items that are maintaine
d or used in conjunction with outdoor camping
activities such
as
hiking, fishing, hunting, or nature appreciation
, regardless
of material used for construction
.
The specific types of primitive camping
activities, structures
,
and uses set forth in this subd
ivision are for illustrative
purposes and should not be construed to limit, in any manner, the types of
activities, structures
,
or uses that
are
exempted from building rules
Does this imply that i do not need a building permit? The property is on 10 acres in the mountains. At the top of a 4x4 trail. i currently have a primitive structure- no electricity or water- that is 12x16 that was built prior to the above law going into effect and i had to get a permit for a "storage shed". Now I wish to add onto it by adding another 12x16 building. Do I need to get a permit if it doesn't need to meet residential building code? I do eventually want to convert it to a dwelling but until then wish to use it for recreational camping...
thanks!!!
oh, new user here....
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silverflash
Member
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2016 05:01pm
Reply
sorry abt the messed up paste job.... the link has all the information though...
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2016 11:35pm
Reply
Hi silverflash- welcome.
It says only for use no longer than 24 hours. That pretty much limits things.
These kinds of local rules are administered by the judgment of the local officials, and they have a lot of leeway in how they will enforce it. I'd go into the local building department and talk to them.
The existing building, if built before codes went into effect, can remain as is and be repaired and maintained without a permit, but not remodeled or added to without a permit. Where repair and maintenance leave off and remodeling begins is a grey area, the inspector will make that call. You might need a permit to reroof it, but not to replace a few pieces of bad siding, etc.
An addition will have to be built up to code, unless they consider that it falls under the rustic cabin rules.
Post pics!
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silverflash
Member
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# Posted: 1 Nov 2016 10:01am
Reply
Hi! Thanks for the response! let me try to clarify some things...
1st) the law states :
"are not intended to be occupied for more
than 24 hours consecutively"
That means i can leave after 23 hours and 59 minutes to go outside then come back in and technically not be in violation.
2nd) The local building inspectors are only interested in collecting as much money in terms of permits and fees. I called them and one was downright rude and said i couldn't even add insulation, which is a total falsehood. The senior inspector called me after and said nothing of the sort and the law states that material for construction doesn't matter.
They want big fees for well/septic/site built... so they are just trying to discourage living off the grid so to speak. I'd call what I do there, camping. In a rustic cabin versus a tent. Rustic means no grid electricity/plumbing etc...
3rd) the existing building was built BEFORE the new law that EXEMPTS primitive structures from the building codes came into effect. Therefore I had it inspected and permitted. it's built to residential code per builder but "shed/storage building" code per county.
If I added to the existing building now, and since it is now classified as a primitive structure- which the law includes sheds,rustic cabins, outhouses etc, that means that any addition i make doesn't need to pass building codes- it will as i want to eventually convert to a "dwelling". My only question here then is if i need a permit. A permit is used to make sure the building is properly built to code, which again, doesn't apply in my case now.
If the permit is legally required for TAX purposes then that's another story. Beyond that, i don't see a reason for a building permit either.
I will see what the responses here are but I am planning to consult a local attorney who is well versed in this law to discuss my status.
The county will tell you what they want you to hear and do, not necessarily what's law.
thanks!
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silverflash
Member
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# Posted: 1 Nov 2016 10:04am
Reply
will all the above said, i would like to get the county to inspect the existing building before i add onto it another 12x16 addition so that i know it will pass code down the road when i convert to a dwelling....
if the permit is totally optional NOW since it's a prmitve structure, i can't see why they wouldn't inspect it as a dwelling for me in order for me to prepare for down the road.... this is a question to ask my atty as well.
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silverflash
Member
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# Posted: 1 Nov 2016 01:51pm
Reply
here's a pic
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 1 Nov 2016 02:54pm
Reply
Quoting: silverflash That means i can leave after 23 hours and 59 minutes to go outside then come back in and technically not be in violation.
I doubt it. That rule is to prevent sleeping more than one night.
Nice pic! Nice spot.
If the building there was built before codes went into effect it is, in effect, permitted as is and you should never need to permit it. If it is considered unpermitted, it will be very difficult to legalize.
You'll pay an attorney a lot of money, but he'll tell you what you need to know. You probably could get the info cheaper by other means, but not as quickly.
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silverflash
Member
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# Posted: 1 Nov 2016 03:44pm
Reply
the building was built when codes were in effect for "storage buildings". now codes are not required for "primitive structures" which this qualifies as. it has no electricity or plumbing. it's a one room recreational/hiking/camping/rustic cabin thing. i don't live there. I go up on some weekends.
I have arranged for a meeting with a local attorney who i've done business with before to go over the facts/law and figure out what i can and cannot do there.. Will update this post after that meeting later this week.
and yes, i love it up there!
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silverflash
Member
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# Posted: 1 Nov 2016 03:59pm
Reply
I am no attorney but the law states:
"are not intended to be occupied for more
than 24 hours consecutively"
this is referencing the structure. Occupied means:
"2. To dwell or reside in (an apartment, for example)." per free dictionary.
If I arrive at the site at 10pm monday night, go to sleep in it till 9:59pm the next night, go outside, then come back in, I am not in violation. The law states what it says. Any reasonable interpretation would lead to the same result. Remember, this law was enacted mainly for the issue with Eustace Conway's turtle island in NC. He has people there working and sleeping, every day. He's not in violation unless someone actually stays in one of the building for more than 24 CONSECUTIVE hours.
definition: key is "without interruption"
"1. Following one after another without interruption; successive: was absent on three consecutive days;"
I look forward to speaking with my attorney. 
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RobWnzl
Member
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# Posted: 6 Dec 2016 09:40pm
Reply
I, too, would be interested in hearing what your lawyer says, Silverflash.
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NorthRick
Member
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2016 04:50pm
Reply
Well, if you don't have plumbing, it usually means you have an outhouse. I don't know anyone that doesn't make at least a couple of trips to the outhouse in any 24 hour period.
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Littlecooner
Member
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# Posted: 9 Dec 2016 07:22pm
Reply
Sometimes, it is a lot easier to obtain forgiveness that it is to obtain permission. At the end of a ATV trail, building on to and existing building? sounds really secluded to me. Why is this not a "rustic cabin"? which i read is to be an exemption?
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chrplunk
Member
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# Posted: 2 Jul 2017 05:57pm
Reply
WOW JUST WOW! You are my new hero silverflash. This is a gem for me as I just bought some land up near Blowing Rock and want to build a small rustic cabin. I contacted Watagua County NC about permits and was told by Watauga County Planning & Inspections via email the following: "Any structure that will be used for human occupancy requires a permit and compliance with the NC Residential Code. Accessory buildings over 12’ in any dimension would also need a building permit.
Septic and well permits would be required before issuance of a building permit for a residence. These are obtained through Appalachian District Health Department."
So here I thought I was going to have to pay a ton of money for a septic permit, a well permit, then a building permit, then jump through all the hoops and headaches that our glorious government burdens us all with. However... the law which was signed Signed by Gov. McRory 6/12/2013 which you sir, turned me on to is just fantastic. THANK YOU!
http://www.ncleg.net/Sessions/2013/Bills/House/PDF/H774v4.pdf
BTW did you ever talk to your lawyer about this silverflash?[img=null]null[/img]
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silverflash
Member
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# Posted: 11 Jul 2017 03:31pm
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I did speak to an ashe county atty and he agreed with my interpretation 100%. I can build up to 4000 sq ft any building without a permit. If i later choose to live there, i need to meet code then. Live there implies wanting electricity and plumbing/septic. Your county office is wrong in your case. What a surprise. I told my county senior inspector that the nc law allows me to have what i have up there and he agreed.
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silverflash
Member
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# Posted: 11 Jul 2017 03:33pm
Reply
I will also add that my atty researched this extensively. But it just cost me 100$ and he took it on because it was a very interesting question. His words. From initial consult to final answer, took about 8 weeks.
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chrplunk
Member
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# Posted: 11 Jul 2017 04:10pm
Reply
Amazing! Thank you for posting this and also for replying, you've literally made my year.
I'm new to this forum is there a way to private message me his name? I have a feeling I'll be needing an atty once I build and they try to cite me. Either way it's fine if not.
Again thank you so much!
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silverflash
Member
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# Posted: 11 Jul 2017 04:19pm
Reply
sure, email me at billpublic at nc.rr.com
it's my spam email dump space but i will see it come thru.
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Shadyacres
Member
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# Posted: 11 Jul 2017 07:12pm
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I think you are getting a little technical with the dwelling aspect. If that were the case , anybody that works outside the home would not be considered dwelling there ? Anybody can come up with reasons why something should or shouldn't be but in the end the inspectors will determine what is what wether we like it or not. I wish you luck and you have an excellent location.
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silverflash
Member
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# Posted: 11 Jul 2017 07:51pm
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A dwelling by definition is a place that someone dwells permanently or day after day and has modern things like indoor plumbing and power built to code or close to it. A tent used to be a dwelling in the stone ages. What i have was a dweeling in the 18th century.
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crunchy
Member
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# Posted: 24 Sep 2019 04:58pm
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silverflash
Hi, I know this thread is old but it's super relevant to me just now; I just got 1.5 acres unrestricted outside of town in Ashe C. I'm wondering if you did build your 'primitive camp' and if you were able to run any energy at all to it..Solar, wind, water?
I talked to someone at Ashe county and they told me the same about 4000sf, 24 hours, yada yada...but said I couldn't have any kind of energy to it, even nature-made.
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jhp
Member
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# Posted: 24 Sep 2019 06:14pm
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"Dwelling" in this instance is not your definition of dwelling, or dictionary.com or any other site or location. You'll need to find the State or county's definition of what that means, specifically.
There should be a section with terms and it will clearly state what they mean.
Here, that would be covered by my county zoning ordinance and it's very clearly defined because those terms can be widely interpreted. Also...you're not the first guy to try that so someone had to explicitly define them somewhere.
This is what I got from Google but you should check your source. This would pretty clearly exclude your "intended use...for human habitation." I guess...unless you jack it up and put it on wheels then you're good to go.
I don't live in NC so I don't know if this is accurate or applies, so your mileage may vary:
According to N.C. Gen. Stat. § 160A-442 , "Dwelling" means any building, structure, manufactured home or mobile home, or part thereof, used and occupied for human habitation or intended to be so used, and includes any outhouses and appurtenances belonging thereto or usually enjoyed therewith, except that it does not include any manufactured home or mobile home, which is used solely for a seasonal vacation purpose.
According to N.C. Gen. Stat. § 53-244.030, "Dwelling" means a residential structure that contains one to four units, whether or not that structure is attached to real property. The term includes an individual condominium unit, cooperative unit, manufactured home, mobile home, or trailer if it is used as a residence
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mj1angier
Member
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# Posted: 26 Sep 2019 07:32am - Edited by: mj1angier
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Here is the bill as passed:
https://www.ncleg.net/Sessions/2013/Bills/House/PDF/H774v4.pdf
This all came about because of the Mountain Man tv show. One of the "Mountain men", Eustace Conway, had a primitive/ backwood school that he owned in NC. After the show aired, the county got a hair up their butt because he had build most or all of his buildings without permits. They closed him down.
Well, some how the local legislator figured out that this was going to put an ugly spotlight on NC. He crafted the bill and got it pushed thru and made into law. The bill does not say anything about power but most power companies will not run power to a unpermited structure. But they will run power to a full service camper site- one that has a septic that has been permitted by city/county.
My cabins are primitive camp buildings- not occupied 24 hrs a day, primarily used or associated with outdoor camping activities,...
I have solar/ generator power and a composting toilet- no permits needed for self installed, not grid tied,...
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