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Running Wolf
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# Posted: 12 May 2016 01:19pm
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We are in negotiation, err papers are ready to be signed, to purchase land in Lake County Mi., while the Township has no zoning the county is over the top. They have a Rustic Cabin Ordinance that is written in a manor that requires interpretation and no 2 people can agree on interpretation. IE 260 sq ft min/400 sq ft max fine, is that foot print or living space? One says foot print...another says foot print but if you have lofts that has to be included in foot print..everything I know says that is living space not foot print...an inspector says Yes we know, the ordinance was written in 2008 and needs updating, but lofts are foot print not living space...the list of questionable interpretations grows from there, right down to having a "cement" vault for outhouse larger than the required size for a full septic system for a house, was even told if an electric line is near by you must connect...
The code officer went as far as saying you would be better off just pulling a regular building permit to save money of course at that point your "cabin" has to meet all insulation and other stick built dwellings requirements---translated by me to 'we don't want you to do anything with your property other than build a house attached to electric, with forced running water and full septic, regardless of 1 day a year use or 365, you will build a house so we can rape your wallet and force grid hook up'
Has anyone else faced this? How did it turn out?
Where in Michigan are they less repressive/no regulation?
I don't want a tar paper shack in the woods but want to be able to have my "re grounding paradise" without having to have a permit and inspection to blow my nose. I mean lets face it, a permit to install a wheel chair ramp is over the top....
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Littlecooner
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# Posted: 12 May 2016 02:25pm
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In my part of the world, in dealing with min. sq footage for a residence as in subdivision covenants, zoning, etc., it would be the "living space" or yes, your loft would count as square footage as it would be the second floor above the lower floor. I have never encountered anyone questing that interpretation in my part of the world. Just appears what these regulations are trying to represent. Hey if you go with that and keep both lower floor and loft under 400 square feet, looks like no one could question what you need to permit.
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Running Wolf
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# Posted: 12 May 2016 03:46pm - Edited by: Running Wolf
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Littlecooner, thanks for the reply. here in my neck of the woods realtors, county, townships, city/villages define footprint and living space as 2 different measurements. Footprint meaning "the area in which structure covers ground and/or earth" going as far as specify "deck, 3 season porch and/or patio slab shall not be considered or taken into structural footprint".
Living space is defined as "the interior area of a structure used to dwell and/or conduct living activities, not to be inclusive of attic, crawl space and/or non-finished sub-level such as basement and/or cellar."
The dictionary of construction defines footprint as
"Area of building where it meets the ground; usually the area of the slab or grade."
Living Unit (more commonly know as Living space)
A dwelling place or any self-contained area or part thereof that comprises complete living facilities for a family, including space and fixtures for sleeping, cooking, eating, living, bathing, and sanitation.
The entire question has came up twice, once by a local "turn key" Amish builder/designer and again from a designer offering to do the 'professional' drawings of our own design required by the county with submission of permit application. After getting 3 different answers to the question, both advise not to move forward until there is a resolve and clear definition and have opted out until that time.
The 'turn key' manufactured we really like is 12x32 equals a 384 sq ft (footprint), open the door walk in, w/ loft 700 sq ft (living space), thus began the questioning...
Regardless of the sq ft issue, there is still the unresolved forced grid hook up and oversized concrete vault for a privy.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 12 May 2016 06:39pm
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Yeah, definitely don't complete the purchase of the land until you know that you can do what you want to do.
I've never heard of a "footprint" being anything other than the area comprised of the linear dimensions of the exterior walls, for example, or the square footage of the foundation if it's perimeter or slab. Living space, habitable versus nonhabitable space, etc. is something else and is defined by a bunch of things in the universal building codes.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 13 May 2016 03:51pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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You're wise to research this ahead of time. Maybe you should buy elsewhere. But it might be the same there.
This 'Rustic Cabin' ordinance is interesting. It sounds like it was meant to allow people to build a small recreational cabin with limited requirements. We've seen some similar things on this forum, such as a rule in Pennsylvania that allows you to build what you want so long as you sign a paper stating that it will never be used as a residence. Can you give us a link to the text of this ordinance you refer to?
Might be a good idea to look at the larger picture with this 'Rustic Cabin' thing. If you get a permit for a regular residence, you'll have to do a lot of expensive stuff like full spread footing, etc. You said the inspector said it would be cheaper to get a permit for a regular residence. I wonder if that's true. The concrete vault could indeed cost more than a standard septic, but that might be a smaller price to pay in order to avoid the other requirements.
Unfortunately the only way to find out exactly what you would be allowed to do in terms of 'footprint' or 'living space' is to draw up a set of plans and submit them and see if they fly. But of course you want to know what will fly before you buy the property. Let me ask you this- is the building that you could build within the most strict interpretation of these rules acceptable to you? If so, plan on submitting a plan within that scope, or use that as a fall back if your first plan (which is in the grey area of interpretation) is rejected.
The rules in the ordinance are weird, but it works two ways. They HAVE to let you build whatever is within the scope of the law. Once the permit is issued they have to let you build it, even if they erase the rule the next day after your permit is issued. The cup is half full.
A loft can be added later. Design the cabin with no loft, but designed so one could be put in, then after the permit is finalled who knows what happens behind closed doors. The sound of buzz saws is a little suspicious...
Looking for someplace with no building requirements? I'm selling parcels in the Sea of Tranquility, real cheap. Water's a little scarce....
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Don_P
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# Posted: 13 May 2016 09:15pm - Edited by: Don_P
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I don't think there is much doubt about the intent of the permitted square footage, the rest has more to do with liberal arts.
Not sure if the vault is black and grey or just black
Whenever something the inspector asks for seems unclear or "over the top", politely ask for a "cite" as in "Can you show me a cite for that?". You are saying "show me"... it will probably turn into teach me  . If you keep it in those tones he will probably show you the laws and politely explain them. He may roll off with just the relevant chapter and verse and let you go find a book and look it up... or he might growl right back at you.
The requirement at some point is a citation. He writes up the violation and cites the code section you are transgressing (write it, cite it). Most inspectors would rather be proactive and show you rather than cite you after the fact... so anyway there is the how and why when you suspect he is enforcing opinion rather than law. Don't be at all surprised if you leave that conversation educated. Be polite, sweet crow is better than sour.
My Dad was a builder, inspector and volunteer builder of many wheelchair ramps. His jigs and tools are still doing that work. Often, safe ramps are tough. I can see both sides on inspecting them.
And to keep rambling, once the inspector figures out you were raised right he might be more inclined to work with you when you need it. I was building a ramp for an older vet. I could stay within slope to within about 4' of the door and then I needed a little grace or we were going to have to do a whole lot of work. We did agree though, I had met the intent, it worked fine for the old gentleman and was a safe ramp.
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Running Wolf
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# Posted: 13 May 2016 11:20pm
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bldginsp
The county building website is http://www.lakecounty-michigan.com/Default.aspx?tabid=2832
The copy of the Draft Rustic Cabin Ordience is last on column on left
The direct link to the pdf is
http://www.lakecounty-michigan.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=9lhG-5gnocw%3d&tabid=283 2&portalid=50&mid=6275
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Running Wolf
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# Posted: 14 May 2016 12:39am
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Don_P
The intent of sq ft or limiting there of is totally understandable and not in question. Lets face it, some people push the boundries. Construction person, be on site, kit, or premade/delievery need to know clearly, exact intent. As another contractor told me today:
9.) RSC shall be a minimum of 260 square feet and a maximum of 400 square feet.
Leaves to much to question. He spoke with them today and it left a, qoute "bad flavor" in his mouth. He went as far as requesting copy of county building code for full build, he was told they don't have one other than the state requirements. (He also questioned the fact it is presented as a draft on the website if it is has even been voted on)
Where the vault is concerned, I was told come in pick up the state pamplet, they don't mail, not on web. Since it's 4 hours away he said go to Michigan Department Environmental Quality, it's thier standard brochure. Not on thier website, called, at first they thought it was a joke, after speaking with 4 people, being called back by 5th (director) he states he has no idea what they are speaking of there is no such pamplet at state leave and only state regulation pertaining to privys/outhouses was one line pertaining to campgrounds which require 500 gallon. He found the cement requirement over plastic or steel tank odd. Further stating for a time limit usage of 1 month use a year 100 gallons would be more than enough, 250 near over kill.
It a wonderful wooded 2.5 acres, we love it. Don't even take issue with the additional tax for being non-homestead. We are trying to learn their rules and regulations as all have them, mostly for just reasons, and everywhere is different. Really don't want to walk away, as it looks now, either we only use the camper there and look for some other place to build our retirement home when the time comes or walk away. Either way an economically struggling county doesn't gain the additional tax revenue...actually by no improvements they lose revenue...
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 14 May 2016 09:20am - Edited by: bldginsp
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I read the Rustic Cabin Ordinance, it's well intentioned but pretty bizarre. Here's a quote from it:
RSC shall be placed on a 4" concrete slab, securely anchored to concrete at all four corners and skirted so animals or rodents can not borough under building.
I thought that animals burrow under buildings, but I guess for bureaucrats it's borough, not burrow.
The ordinance states that you have to get the appropriate building, plumbing, elec etc. permits. But nowhere does it state that if you are using the Rustic Cabin allowance that you do not have to meet the requirements of the building code for structural design. It does clearly state that you don't have to have required plumbing. But because it doesn't state that you don't have to meet structural requirements, it is open to interpretation as to whether they can require it.
The building is required to be on a 4" slab, or a premanufactured can be placed on grade. No mention of deepened footings at the perimeter of the slab. Building on a 4" slab this way for a 400 sq ft building in snow is ridiculous. It could be interpreted that that is what you have to do. Pier foundations are basically excluded, and, so it seems, a full perimeter spread footing.
And the fact that they allow use of a vault, but there is no definition or (apparently) no prior history in the Health Dept. of use of vaults, makes it impossible.
Note that at the beginning it says:
Gen. Rqmnts 3) RSC's placed in Lake County shall have toilet facilities and water supply wells installed in accordance with District 10 Health Department Sanitary Code.
Later, in the plumbing section, it talks about the vault:
Sec. 11 b. A sewage disposal system permit shall have been issued by District Health Department #10, having jurisdiction for an outside privy over an approved vault.
But since there is no such thing as an approved vault, it defaults to the first statement, meaning you have to have an approved septic system.
Another 'impossible' aspect of the text is that it says the cabin can only be used by family members only (Plumbing Section). It is impossible to define family, so how is this enforced? Is the half-brother of your adopted child a member of the family?
Well intentioned, poorly written, poorly thought out. And you are the poor soul directly affected by the absence of clear definition- you, the person it was intended to "help".
Can't blame people for being frustrated with 'da gubmint' when I see this kind of 'vault'.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 14 May 2016 09:44am
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Best of intentions gone wrong because the language was not thought out or was produced by people who had no idea of what they were talking about.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 14 May 2016 11:05am
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A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. That's why I'm the only person that dares to eat my cooking.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 14 May 2016 11:12am
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It might be worth pouring over the local health code. There might be a definition and requirements for a vault in the code, even though the current staff knows nothing about it. If it is there, they have to let you do it.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 14 May 2016 06:31pm
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Bingo, Running Wolf. Took me 3 minutes to find it. This is from the District 10 Sanitary Code;
5.2.22 a)
Construction and Maintenance of Privies and Similar Toilet Devices
A person shall construct and maintain all privies and other similar toilet devices in accordance with Act 368 of the Public Acts of 1978, as amended (Section 12771). In addition, the privy must be of a vault construction which provides a durable watertight barrier between the sewage and the soil and groundwater.
You need to know what that Act 368 is, but this provision seems to give definition to a vault privy. However, it does not state where and when a privy can be used, it just says how to build it if allowed. It's the Rustic Cabin code that gives permission to use a vault.
Be interesting to hear what the folks in Health say if you wave this under their noses.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 14 May 2016 06:45pm
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Here is 12771 from Act 368, state legislation:
333.12771 Outhouses; requirements; rules; violation as misdemeanor; public nuisance; "outhouse" defined.
Sec. 12771. (1) A person shall not maintain, or permit to be maintained, on premises owned or controlled by the person an outhouse unless the outhouse is kept in a sanitary condition, and constructed and maintained in a manner which will not injure or endanger the public health.
(2) The department shall promulgate rules governing the construction and maintenance of outhouses to safeguard the public health and to prevent the spread of disease and the existence of sources of contamination. (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor. An outhouse not constructed or maintained as required by this section or the rules promulgated pursuant to this section shall be a public
nuisance.
(4) As used in this section, "outhouse" means a building or other structure not connected with a sewer
system or with a properly installed and operated sewage disposal system, and which is used for the reception, disposition, or storage, either temporarily or permanently, of feces or other excreta from the human body.
This specifically gives you the permission to use an outhouse so long as it is maintained in a sanitary condition and is constructed "in a manner which will not injure or endanger public health". The District 10 Sanitary Code tells how it is to be built- water tight so it doesn't leak into the ground.
There's still a fair amount here subject to interpretation, but these two health codes are much better written and far less confusing than the Rustic Code. I think they would have a hard time refusing you on this, and if they did, you would have grounds for suit. Not that you want to do that, but a single well written letter from a lawyer would probably be enough to get them to allow it.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 14 May 2016 06:50pm
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Since the vault only has to provide a durable watertight barrier to the soil, seems to me you could use a 55 gallon plastic barrel with a toilet seat on it. Probably more watertight than a concrete vault.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 14 May 2016 07:42pm
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What are they saying about grey water?
It seems there might be a win-win here as well. They need a well written rustic cabin code, and so do you... write them one and present it to the planning commission.
Going from memory, I think chapter 3 of the IRC but could be early in chap 4, exemptions from frost protected foundations for utility buildings under 400 sf... the sf limit and the slab on grade reference? I suspect they intended to include the language of exempted foundations from there.
In dorms with taller ceilings there are some impressive freestanding "bunk beds", functionally a loft but built as a stand alone piece of furniture.
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Running Wolf
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# Posted: 14 May 2016 09:36pm
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bldginsp
Thank you so much, I searched for 2 weeks every free second and could not find it. Can you tell where it is locate? I will have to reread this in the am. Just got home from going up to the property (8hrs rnd trip), I'm beat...
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Running Wolf
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# Posted: 14 May 2016 09:46pm - Edited by: Running Wolf
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Quoting: Don_P chapter 3 of the IRC but could be early in chap 4
IRC? International Residence Code?
Does present a unique opportunity win-win!
The dorm style bed loft...ingenious!
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 14 May 2016 10:14pm
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Quoting: Running Wolf IRC?
IRC
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 14 May 2016 11:01pm
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District 10 Sanitary code:
http://www.dhd10.org/images/Uniform_Sanitary_Code.pdf
Michigan public health code:
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/mcl/pdf/mcl-act-368-of-1978.pdf
Knowledge is power!
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 14 May 2016 11:18pm
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I'm starting to think that we in this forum could write a model code for recreational/sportsmans' cabins with limited requirements such as we see here in Michigan as well as the Pennsylvania provision for the same. It could be submitted to the ICC (International Code Council) for inclusion in their model building code. Most building codes in the US are based on their model code. Then, as states and other jurisdictions adopt the ICC building code, they could accept the recreational/sportsmans' cabin provision as part of their code or not, as they choose. It would provide some uniformity to how this is handled, and get code professionals thinking about it.
Maybe when I retire....
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Don_P
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# Posted: 15 May 2016 08:16am
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 15 May 2016 08:24pm
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To me, this is all like trying to thread a needle. Either you have a place with all or most of the mod. cons. (otherwise known as a second home or vacation home) or you have a sportsman's/recreational cabin.
When I was a kid, I went off to the woods with friends whose families had cabins. Outhouse, no electricity, greywater went underground. Oil lamps provided light inside at night and we cooked on a camp stove or over the fire outside. A cooler was the fridge and the adults made ice runs to the general store. It was awesome!
Now we've got access to portable solar panels, composting toilets, and all sorts of things that can provide more conveniences to the "sportsman's cabin" but still not require plumbing and electrical installation. Pleasant, safe, convenient, but still basic. Folks should be able to build these without much more than a quick building department look-see and small fee.
I think clear lines have to be drawn if they're going to distinguish between types of cabins and have different categories like this.
I wish they wouldn't, though. It punishes those who want to live off-grid full-time by making them jump through all sorts of hoops or avoid permits altogether and try to fly below the radar.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 15 May 2016 09:21pm
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There are also a whole lot more people now than when I was a teen...
1960 census = 189,323,175
2016 = an estimated 322,762,018 at the beginning of the year
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 15 May 2016 10:27pm
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i remember when the people in my area...Lake Saint Clair, had their sewer lines draining into the lake,and I'm not that old.
I've lived in my town for thirty years. When I moved here we had two beaches. Now we don't have any.
The e-coli problem got so bad that the city decided to close the beaches. Now the kids swim at the very nice city pool.
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brooksm29
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# Posted: 16 May 2016 01:18am
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Running Wolf...
I am from Michigan and I have a cabin in Newaygo County(Directly south of Lake). Newaygo County is all zoned and a big pain in the butt too. I keep looking for better places to build in Michigan, with the, no more than 2 hours drive rule, in effect. I looked at Lake County and felt that I too was going to be running the gauntlet of legality. I chose not to go that route, eventhough several of those townships are not zoned. I think you could, with some research and guts, play the rules to your benefit in Lake County. I did not want to invest that time because I already was doing that in Newaygo County. Lake County is a very poor county and you can get some incredible land prices there. They are also in the middle of the Manistee National forest.
I thought, in Michigan Building Code, sq footage was calculated on living space. They did not count attics or Michigan basements that you could not stand straight up in (5ft?). If you were trying to do that, without adding that into the sq footage, I am sure you would not be legal. In Newaygo County, its defined as any structure with a roof supported by 4 walls, made of any material, affixed to the ground or not. So I am not surprised that Lake County, Our Neighbor County, is getting a little finicky. Most of these rural countys in Michigan default to Michigan State Code.
I have 2 suggestions:
Figure out how to work within legality in Lake Countys Code...
or...
Try Wexford County, 1 County North of Lake. In that county you can build a 200sq ft structure without any permit. I probably wouldnt yell out the word "CABIN" but it may work for you.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 16 May 2016 01:03pm
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brooks- careful with those 200 sq ft rules. Often it only permits a storage shed- not a residence- so they could stop you from living in it.
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brooksm29
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# Posted: 16 May 2016 09:34pm
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bldginsp-
I have been very careful with these rules. I am not sure where you are from but we are pretty rural here. I wish that more areas would look at and encourage, more people to build small cabins. They would look much nicer than the bunch of crappy campers that litter my township, where the cabin is. We also have several tiny, unbuildable lots (house size requirement), that could be utilized by small cabin people. These small pieces are in prime, lakefront areas. More townships, counties and states should definately address the small/rural cabin movement.
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Running Wolf
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# Posted: 17 May 2016 12:56am
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brooksm29
I have a friend that lives in Newaygo County that prewarned me about Newaygo. (And there strictness right down to ticketing vehicles) sadly if we adhere to the two hour rule we are roughly not much past GR..so we figured 2 people, 2 hrs apiece, so we went for 4 hr...
We had thought about the UP but...
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Running Wolf
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# Posted: 17 May 2016 01:00am
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MBC, or the code, has a piece in it that states bathroom, toilet room, closets, attic space, shall not be counted as living space.
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