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deryk
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# Posted: 15 May 2015 07:33am
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Hi folks,
Ok I am looking at land. I live in central NJ, and have an ok job that I don't want to give up but am looking for land for weekend getaways and holidays till I can afford to retire on 1 day. I am 47, hoping that maybe in 15 years if I make it that long at the school lol(I am a custodian/maint person).
So I have been looking around 3 hours from my home, too much further then that it becomes a place I can't afford to drive to often. So NY, Pa, and Wv (have a friend that just moved down there)
Well NY and Pa, the cost to put a septic system in is out of hand. Close to 20k. I wanted to go the composting toilet route so reality its greywater system I need but all 3 of the states I am looking at all say must be a 1000 gallon septic system even with a composting toilet. I think most of the cost is because they all have to be "Engineered approved".
I could build a recreation use cabin (hunting cabin) but it can't be lived in, and if they got wind of it you get fined. I have seen a few affordable pieces of remote land like 1 I was talking with a local building inspector...nice guy but he said the EPA requirements are getting tougher and tougher every year. I could pick up a piece of land 3 acres for around 8k...and pay off a personal loan on it in 5 years or less. But coming up with 20k + to put a septic system is the killer. If I went with a new construction loan to build on it through a bank they are going to want AC power installed, larger home on it because they want to know they can sell it if i fail on paying back the mortgage.
A few realtor's have told me because of the initial new build cost's a lot of people end up buying a already built house because it ends up being cheaper.
Any thoughts? Sadly until I can retire the idea of buying land someplace in a farther away state would become a place I can only go to 2 or 3 times a year on vacation as opposed to once or twice a month for long weekends.
thanks
deryk
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Ruggles
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# Posted: 15 May 2015 01:30pm
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3 hours is good. We drew a 3 hour circle around our house and ended up near the edge. After 8 years, 3 hours is the max for us I think for weekend use. Farther than that and there are lots of excuses not to go. Ours is recreational in Colorado and we have no "liveable" structures.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 15 May 2015 02:34pm
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We all have our personal travel time limits for our recreation. We are shorter fused, I guess. 2 hours would be our maximum length and we are very have with the hour and a half to three quarters that we have.
Septic and grey water rules change. Some states have some reasonable grey water rules. Most don't. States even differ on what is called grey water; kitchen sinks are black in some places and grey in others. So even if a composting toilet is allowed sometimes the kitchen sink can foul the deal. There is no easy cheap and legal solution in many places from what I can see.
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Littlecooner
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# Posted: 15 May 2015 08:59pm - Edited by: Littlecooner
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http://www.wvdhhr.org/phs/forms/ES-52_Individual_and_Onsite_Sewage_System_Design_Stan dards.pdf
Check out page 11 in these West Virginia Standards. Looks like I just placed your new cabin site to be in West Virginia. Composting Toilets are legal with the Gray water system installed. I would think this would bring you into a $1000-$2000 price range for legal permitted onsite sewage treatment. Sorry about PA and NY, way to dense of population for any flexibility with the regulations. Hope this helps and good luck with finding the magic site in wild West Virginia.
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deryk
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# Posted: 15 May 2015 11:42pm
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Hmmmm.... wonder what they will say lol...URL
no drain field needed, just a hole to place the tank and dispesment type tank in.
Thanks! Might have to give them a call and see what they have to say.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 16 May 2015 02:22am
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Don't know why a septic in good soil should cost $20,000. The backhoe work and materials involved are in the $4-7,000 range. NY and PA must have extra requirements, at least in some areas. What is the closest area from you with simple septic requirements? Don't assume they are the same everywhere
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Littlecooner
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# Posted: 16 May 2015 08:18am
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Here is you another site to look at cost of products. Make sure you put in an effluent filter in anything you do, keeps all solids from the disposal/absorption field. Link is for infiltrator, which is a gravel less system and in MHO, the best product on the market, Dig a level trench and just install and cover. you should be able to do a gray water system for a two bed room cabin absorption for around $ 300 or less of product cost and installation is a breeze with a back hoe. Looks like you can get a gray water system up and running for around a thousand bucks for material and any local guy with a back hoe and license should install this for less than another thousand. Also, in my area, normal septic tanks installation for three bedroom single family residences are in the $ 4,000 to 6,000 range for a "lock and key" job from a likened installer. Understand the cost of living, but you original cost of $ 20,000 appears to be way out of the norm, but then again, I have not priced one just outside NY city.
http://www.septicsolutions.com/InfiltratorChambers/InfiltratorQuick4.html
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Littlecooner
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# Posted: 16 May 2015 08:26am
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Once you find your little piece of Heaven in West Virginia, you would be wise to sign a sales contract with the condition that the area/parcel is stable for a reasonable well and septic tank. Then obtain the services of a local soil scientist/engineer/surveyor to obtain a permit for installation of your exact location on said property. You may need to furnish as a minimum a floor plan that shows the actual foot print of your cabin and be prepared to show your consultant the exact location of your proposed cabin and where you want the waste water system. With that in hand, its all down hill from there, and any building permits should be easy with the onsite sewage disposal permit in hand. Just do your homework and it will all fall in place with no problems. Too many people buy land first and then educate themselves on the rules, just look around this forum for all those "horror stories" of what to do now. Like the quote from the Indiana Jones movie = Choose wisely, my son, you only get to chose once".
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deryk
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# Posted: 16 May 2015 10:17am
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Thanks!
Yeah I try to do my research as much as I can first to try to limit screwups lol...not that i haven't made more then my fair share of "oopses" over the years lol.
Before I even look at properties next month when I am heading down I want to get approval from the county that "yeah I guess we have to accept it and approve the suggested Manufactured grey water disposal system that I will send them. Once I know it is good, there are a few properties I want to head down to look at.
West Virginia is kind of nice that they are not overly strict for building. I am fine with following the 2012 IEBC standards, and they don't have a problem with small/tiny homes (and honestly, I am looking at building something or buying something in the 4-500 square foot range)
Part of the cost for Septic systems in my area they insist on an engineer to design the system so the cost gets pumper up. I have heard a few say 12-18k is a normal range but that is still steep when the labour and materials in probably under 3k or so.
Gets me a bit excited, even if I will only be able to go down like once a month for a long weekend...will be nice to have a place of my very own and can afford to pay the taxes all at once from one of my meager paychecks (my mom's taxes would be around 12k + but its frozen because she is a senior citizen)
thanks
deryk
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deryk
Member
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# Posted: 19 May 2015 11:57pm
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Spoke with the Sewage guy on monday...he said he will need a few days to talk with the state guys who drafted the law to see what they recommend for an approved manufactured grey water system (like does it have to have specific ratings or anything) He called me today and said don't worry he will be back in touch in a few days.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 20 May 2015 09:01am
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Well at least you have a conversation going. It's large numbers of people like you asking these kinds of questions that gradually shifts attitudes in the established bureaucracy. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Let us know what they say.
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deryk
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# Posted: 20 May 2015 09:27am
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Thanks, yeah I will update this when I hear back from them. I think once they get enough people questioning them we are more likely to get a change.
The typical 1000 gallon septic tank with the pipe to go to a drain field might be about half the height of the tank. Well if you were using it for poop it might be fine for the stuff to decompose in before it heads out to the drain field.
For just grey water use 500 gallons of water will probably just dry in the tank before it ever makes it to the field to percolate out with 1 or 2 people using it daily. The system I proposed to him has an inline filter that can be cleaned out, easy access to the inside of the tank...so lets see what they say. Hopefully they will give it a shot, or I will have to build a home with no plumbing, then in 5 years when the personal loan is paid off, then take another loan for a septic and well dug. This would simplify things greatly for me lol.
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Littlecooner
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# Posted: 20 May 2015 09:56am
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I like the looks of you Natural Home greywater disposal system. Even if you have to add a disposal field instead of the effluent well, it should not be expensive and appears to be something you can install yourself. Ask the guy if you can install your own. In the state I am in, its tucked away in the regulations and not talked about much, but one can install their own permitted system on their own property for a single family residence. I see the application fee in WV is $ 400. Does the health department preform percolation tests for this amount as part of the application, as I do not see anywhere for that third party consultant to sign the application? Good luck. Loaded with exact information and specifications of what you desire to construct along with a "smile on your face" will go a long way with the health department people. They are there to serve and guide. Just try not to rock the boat, obtain permit for your application and go away and find that little bit of heaven in WV.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 20 May 2015 01:26pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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Derek- the purpose of a septic tank is not really to decompose the poop before it goes to the drain field, it is to settle out the solids so they never get to the drain field. The water leaving the tank should appear clear, though full of nasty bacteria. Septic tanks must be pumped when the solids get deep enough in the tank that they could start to overflow and go into the drain field.
Grey water systems must settle out solids too, but they have far less solids coming into them than a septic so a smaller settling tank is required, or perhaps just a filter. Drain fields can be smaller and not as deep because (I believe, not sure) they are dealing with less harmful waste bacteria and so do not develop the same bio-mat at the drain field as a septic. Some grey water drain systems use a perforated pipe wrapped in a special filter cloth, just buried in the dirt with no gravel.
There are a lot of different types of systems proposed and in use, I don't think that there are any 'commonly accepted' designs yet, as there is with a standard septic design. Things look great on paper and then 5 years later you find out that it doesn't work as well as you thought. No self-respecting health official wants his name on that. So they have to see that the design is backed up with credible engineering or better yet- having been implemented successfully in someone else's county first for many years.
But you don't have that long to wait. Don't be surprised though if they reject it just because 'we don't like it'. They have the public trust, and so have to err on the side of caution.
One thing that can really help is information supplied by manufacturers of grey water systems. They know they have to convince local health officials and often they collect examples of accepted and implemented systems. That kind of info means more to your local health people than the logic and enthusiasm of a single citizen who doesn't want to spend the money for a full septic. That's the hard reality of public service.
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deryk
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# Posted: 26 May 2015 10:06am
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Well spoke with him again this morning. He told me it is at the state level and that means slow to respond. It is likely that they signed a bill into law but didn't look at what the systems are first. That would be typical.
Now I did get some information about how it is legal to have an outhouse and how in recreational cabins as long as you don't have pressurized water inside the structure it's technically ok to just pour out sink water onto the ground. So like those blue 7 gallon water jugs they sell at walmart could sit on your counter and be used for dish-washing and showering. For me it wouldn't be a forever thing since this is a weekend use cabin. So if it doesn't get approved and I have to put a real septic system in-place I guess for the next several years I would just go that route till the property is paid off.
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deryk
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# Posted: 26 May 2015 10:07am
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But he also agree's that the system I talked to him about would be a much better choice then just dumping water onto the ground.
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kirstennn
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# Posted: 20 Feb 2022 09:58am
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Quoting: deryk Well spoke with him again this morning. He told me it is at the state level and that means slow to respond.
*Extremely* late in responding to this, but interested to hear if you ever got an answer from WV state-level people about what manufactured grey water disposal systems are allowed under the regs?
Currently looking at the same issue—and have been reaching out to folks—but not getting any specifics yet.
Would be grateful to know where you ended up on this!
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deryk
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# Posted: 22 Feb 2022 10:51am
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at the time they didn't have any good suggestions. I ended up buying a piece of land in Pa with a well and septic so saved the headaches.
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kirstennn
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# Posted: 22 Feb 2022 11:18am
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Frustrating! But also so helpful to know, thank you for sharing!
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