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EastTN
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# Posted: 21 Oct 2013 01:18pm
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75 Acres in East TN
Thinking of sharing our property with other Tiny House people.
What I am looking for here is feedback.
Back Story
We have a 75 acre property with a solid but very little cottage home in East Tennessee. Nearby towns and cities include, Knoxville, Morristown, and Gatlinburg. There is a small stream running through the property. About a quarter of the property is pasture and the rest is mature hardwoods and cedar. The property is perfect for Hiking, Hunting, and any and all outdoor activities. As secluded as this place is, there is a good neighborhood grocery store only 5 minutes away which is pretty convenient. It is quiet here with lots of deer and turkey. No traffic noise, No neighbors in sight. The cabin is about a quarter mile back from the road. In actuality it is the topography of the land, the hills and hollows that provide the seclusion. Actual distance wise we are only 5 or so miles from town. Hiking distance in a pinch.
Then we found this web site, along with other sights for companies like Tumbleweed Tiny Homes, Tennessee Tiny Homes, Texas Tiny Homes, and others turning out these very small but livable cottages and small homes on wheels.
These Tiny and portable homes and the people who like them would fit in well here.
It occurs to me that other people might like the peace and seclusion as much as we do.
And at the same time appreciate some quiet nearby activity to discourage theft or vandalism.
We were thinking of developing no more than 3 additional camp sites for tiny homes. The minimum would be a bare level cabin site with grass that gets mowed.
With 4 small weekend homes on the property, (including us) odds are there would be somebody there most of the time, or that comings and goings would be random enough to prevent timing for theft or vandalism. The trick I think would be to have the sites far enough apart for privacy, and yet close enough to provide some mutual security.
Another challenge is utilities. It would be expensive to create a widely distributed network of power and water to widely separated camp sites, but at the same time we don't want a camper park with camp sites on top of each other.
So what I am looking for here is feedback. If you didn't own property, and were looking for a place to set up your tiny home, What level of utility service would you say is a minimum?
Dry camp with access to a central source of water?
Dry camp with power?
Water and power?
Water and power and septic?
Keeping in mind that cost goes up with the complexity of the utility services. What would you consider a fair monthly cost sharing amount for each of the above options?
Next consideration is privacy and seclusion. Because of the topography and woods it is possible to locate all 4 sites (ours included) so that no other camp site is visible. While this would be perfect if seclusion is your only goal it doesn't help much for security.
And would also be the most costly in terms of power & water.
What level of seclusion would you say is a preferred?
No other camp in sight?
One other camp in sight?
Two other camps in sight?
Three?
Four?
Again keeping in mind that costs go up the with greater separation of camp sites, On top of utility costs how much extra would you consider fair to pay for each of the above options?
Any feedback we get will be greatly appreciated and would help us decide how elaborate this would need to be and if the investment would be worth the return.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 21 Oct 2013 03:24pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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Can't help you with estimating costs, too many variables.
A few thoughts
The more people you have, the more capacity you will need for septic disposal. If you really do want to have 4 or 5 different people or families living/visiting there, you want to be sure, for everyone's sake, that you have a large enough system, or several systems. If there are four separate sites, far enough from each other for privacy, does each site have a separate septic?
I don't know whether you plan to try to get permits from the local planning/building dept, but I'm pretty sure they will consider this a "trailer park" or some such and have a pile of regulations for you to comply with. If you do this without permits, then they discover that it exists, they may shut you down pretty quick. Any health department, or planning or building department, that catches wind of numerous trailers on a parcel without approvals is going to take immediate notice and action. At least they would here in California.
Before you slice the numbers too closely regarding how much you will charge your tenants, I'd research closely all aspects of the larger situation and ask if you really want to do it at all.
Hope I haven't rained on your party, but the thought of four separate "improvised" septic systems scattered around the property is a bit scary.
IMHO
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hattie
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# Posted: 21 Oct 2013 04:23pm
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I think most people would want septic, water and electricity. With the population aging as it is, many are beginning to downsize and simplify their lives. Many elderly want their privacy but don't want to feel isolated. They also want to keep their independence. As the population gets older there are not going to be enough places for retired folk. Perhaps you could market something to retired people? If shopping and amenities are not too far away it could be quite attractive. You will never make something that will appeal to everyone but if you target a specific demographics you might have success. You will definitely need to look into regulations from the local planning department and do everything legally so that you don't run into trouble later on.
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PatrickH
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# Posted: 21 Oct 2013 05:14pm
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I would want full hook-ups as well as far as the buffer our lots are only 150 wide and around 600 ft deep for me its enough you can sometimes hear people but hardly ever see them with all the trees but I know here there are restrictions to how many campers you can have and I would think if you start building cabins you would be going down the sub-division path
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davey25
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# Posted: 21 Oct 2013 07:20pm
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Seems kind of crazy to go through all this trouble and cost..to have some security..and also invading on your own privacy...there are other ways to make the place more secure..seems like this maybe more of a way to make money more than anything..just my 2 cents
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 21 Oct 2013 10:30pm
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EastTN-
Rereading your post it looks to me like you want to have a pleasant place for yourself and like minded people to enjoy the countryside, and I respect that. I hope you can work out the logistics
There is an area on my five acres secluded from my cabin area where I would like to make a campsite for friends. What I imagined was a single septic system and a single shower/toilet house centrally located, with a few bunk houses and maybe one RV hookup. So it's all in one area. But you want to locate your friends/tenants far from each other, which, it seems, would require separate facilities for each, greatly increasing the logistics. And, the more separate setups you have, the more likely you would run into regulatory restrictions. Where I am the zoning laws allow only two RVs on a residential parcel before you have to get special approval for an RV park.
Hope you can fulfill your vision
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 22 Oct 2013 12:07am
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Research what the zoning requirements are and what permits and inspections would be required. This would get you into operating a commercial enterprise it seems to me. It's a whole other thing compared to owning some private land yourself. There are a host of good business reasons why trailer and RV parks have services and also have everyone parked side by side.
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EastTN
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# Posted: 22 Oct 2013 06:20am - Edited by: EastTN
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thanks all, for all the feedback.
More Info.
Rural East TN is not big on building restrictions and permits. Some are required but not many. Additionally the Tiny houses I am thinking about are built small enough that they are considered yard sheds by most municipalities and don't require building permits.
My main motivation in this consideration is security rather than Income. The type of widely distributed, ultra low density camping layout I am envisioning can't possibly be profitable. I do hope to recoup some of my costs tho.
In the past we have employed caretakers with widely varying degrees of success. Needless to say a caretaker in our one and only cabin means we don't get to enjoy the place ourselves.
I have even considered building a second cabin for a caretaker. But the expense is prohibitive.
On the up side any and all improvements will eventually benefit us in retirement one way or another.
The consensus seams to be for full hookups, electricity, water and septic.
I can swing that for one maybe two sites but not for three. I will be able to justify the expense by locating this site where I eventually want to build an additional cabin.
So if you had a Tiny house on wheels or skids and we're looking for a quiet place to set up a camp. And if you were presented with a ready site in the woods with all hookups, what would you be willing to pay for that?
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 22 Oct 2013 07:58am - Edited by: bldginsp
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Don't know who can answer this question because it's entirely a function of the cost of the specific utilities involved, which depend upon how you design it and the costs in your area.
Perhaps another way to look at it is- how much would it cost the owner of a 'tiny house', or trailer, to park and hook up at a local trailer park, and can you match that price? No, you can't, but what you offer is a nicer place to be.
How much more than prevailing market price would tiny house owners be willing to pay for a nicer place to live?
You asked 'what is fair', I'm asking 'what will the market bear'. Can you install the necessary utilities and meet your costs while charging a 'fair market price'?
You need to:
-Draw up a plan, or several proposed plans.
-See if the local planning/building will allow it, and what that would require
-Cost out the entire project- septic, water, electric, permit fees, required installations
-Amortize costs over a certain number of years
-Determine monthly rent necessary to meet that math
You got your work cut out
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Rossman
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# Posted: 22 Oct 2013 01:16pm
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Quoting: EastTN Additionally the Tiny houses I am thinking about are built small enough that they are considered yard sheds by most municipalities and don't require building permits.
Yard shed are not allowed to be used for human habitation, generally. It's not as simple as you are making it out to be. Talk to your municipality, and tell them your plan, see what they tell you. I think you're going to be surprised (not pleasantly).
Just because the rules say "structures below x sq.ft. do not require permits", does not mean you can automatically just build as many as you want, and then have people living in them.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 22 Oct 2013 01:24pm
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Quoting: Rossman Just because the rules say "structures below x sq.ft. do not require permits", does not mean you can automatically just build as many as you want, and then have people living in them.
Very true words. Many folks misinterpret what the rules really mean when they read about no permits being needed under a certain size; 200 sq ft, 144, 120, whatever.
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EastTN
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# Posted: 22 Oct 2013 04:57pm - Edited by: EastTN
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Thanks again for the excellent feedback.
Imagine the following. just one cabin site. Located on its own parcel of land. With driveway, electricity, water and a legal septic system.
So if you had a Tiny house on wheels or skids and we're looking for a quiet place to set up a camp. And if you were presented with this site in the woods, what would you be willing to pay for that?
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 22 Oct 2013 05:30pm
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I drive all over the USA over one million miles and have yet to see a small house on wheels. I do see a lot of travel trailers.
Where is the market for this idea?
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EastTN
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# Posted: 22 Oct 2013 05:44pm
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Tumbleweed Tiny houses, Tennessee Tiny Homes, Tiny Texas Houses. All make these small and expensive miniature houses. Some on wheels, some on skids. They are not common like travel trailers. This probably explains why you have not seen them. Another possibility is that people who buy them don't locate them along the roads you drive on. They are more likely to be out of sight, back on property.
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 22 Oct 2013 05:49pm - Edited by: silverwaterlady
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I drive all the major interstates. If they are going to move a tiny house it would be safer to move on a major interstate. The point is that they are not being moved around. They are most likely being built and than set in place for years at a time. Probably on their own property or in somebody's backyard.
Edit: Some research at the manifactors web sites and from the people that purchase them would be a good idea.
It sounds like you are in a excellent tourist area. Why don't you build a few cabins and rent them out?
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 22 Oct 2013 06:25pm
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From what I read about Tiny Houses in the past I thought the real idea behind building them on wheels was to avoid it being labeled a permanent building and thus becoming subject to all the planning, zoning and building permit rules. I did not think people actually moved them around a lot.
Actually my main problem with the idea is I am not a renter type of person. I want to own. That said I also like to travel and see different parts of the country, but we do that by more conventional and lighter weight means.
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EastTN
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# Posted: 22 Oct 2013 09:52pm
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Thanks again for the excellent feedback.
Imagine you just bought your Tiny Home but don't yet own land for it. You don't want to just park it in the back yard, and the idea of leaving it at a camper park with tin can neighbors is appalling to you. Now imagine you find this quiet East Tennessee property with just one cabin site. Located way off the country lane on its own parcel of land. With a gated driveway, electricity, water and a legal septic system.
So if you had a Tiny house, And if you were presented with this site in the woods, what would you be willing to pay for that?
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 22 Oct 2013 10:05pm
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Quoting: silverwaterlady I drive all over the USA over one million miles and have yet to see a small house on wheels.
http://www.tumbleweedhouses.com/
Here is one. But they are the same classification as an RV and require no permit. Not sure if they are self contained. If not,t hen they need full RV hookup.
If OP charges fee, he is open for lawsuits. A trip-n-fall lawyer and a little (((shake down))) lawsuit, Jesse Jackson style, you could be bankrupt.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 22 Oct 2013 10:29pm
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Quoting: EastTN So if you had a Tiny house, And if you were presented with this site in the woods, what would you be willing to pay for that?
You may be asking the wrong crowd for an answer to that. As far as I know everyone owns their land, with the exception of a few Canadians with government leases of Crown land if I understand that part right.
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 23 Oct 2013 12:02am - Edited by: silverwaterlady
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Thanks Toyota. I know what they look like. I have never seen one tooling down the road. Neither has my co driver. That's appx 3 million miles of driving on interstates and some state routes without a sighting.
EastTN:I don't know the weight and height of one of these houses. There are weight and height restrictions on country lanes. Would this house make it down your road?
Edit:I went to the Tumbleweed web site and checked the specs on the height on a few of the larger homes they are at 13'5" that is legal for interstate travel. However,if there are any low clearence bridges on your route that won't work.
I think the tiny houses are really cute as a button. 
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 23 Oct 2013 12:34am - Edited by: MtnDon
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Wow! Those (tumbleweed) are not lightweight. The weebee at 102 sq ft weighs in at just under 5000 lbs dry. No belongings added to what you get when you buy one. No wonder they are seen being towed around a lot. A typical travel trailer with 127 sq ft has a dry weight of under 3000 lbs.
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EastTN
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# Posted: 23 Oct 2013 07:32am
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Quoting: MtnDon You may be asking the wrong crowd for an answer to that. As far as I know everyone owns their land, with the exception of a few Canadians with government leases of Crown land if I understand that part right.
Yes, probably the wrong crowd.
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neb
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# Posted: 23 Oct 2013 09:00pm
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Quoting: MtnDon Research what the zoning requirements are and what permits and inspections would be required. This would get you into operating a commercial enterprise it seems to me. It's a whole other thing compared to owning some private land yourself. There are a host of good business reasons why trailer and RV parks have services and also have everyone parked side by side
Mtn is right.
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davey25
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# Posted: 23 Oct 2013 11:27pm
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I guess depends on what property is worth there to..if you charged say 300 a month..and I could look at my own small getaway property with the low interest rates out there..I might be looking more at purchasing my own plot of land..and putting my own cabin up..I just think it's an all around bad idea...
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rcan08
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# Posted: 28 May 2014 11:25am
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hi I am in Decatur, tn. and would like to speak to you about sharing your property if your still so inclined. my number to reach me at is 423-463-6400
thanks
randy freyer
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BearCaveonwheels
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# Posted: 22 Aug 2014 06:10pm - Edited by: BearCaveonwheels
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I am in the process of looking into the logistics and financial side of remodeling a school bus to live in. This includes where Im gonna park it and live for a short term basis. I will tell you I plan on eventually getting the bus to be 100% utility free via solar panels and a water collecting system. anyways. So, anyways, I would eventually enjoy checking this property out sometime. anyways, you peeked my interest.
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sandlynx
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2014 11:30am
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I would like to place a tiny house on my property too (when I get it) but have run into the fact that the smaller size means that it can't be used for human habitation. But, it's OK to put a trailer or mobile home on the place which to me is much lower quality than I am looking at in a tiny house.
If the tiny house is on wheels, does that work around some of the building code problems? (Michigan area)
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