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ATB
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# Posted: 1 Aug 2013 02:55pm
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You can see my prior post saga of buying acreage rant that Ive been trying to buy acreage for years now. Put bids in on 2 places to find that one didnt have a legal easement and I dont have a helicopter and another had no place to build complements of the Federal wetland program and hydric soil. Both deals the realtor said no big deal! Good news I found out these issues prior to closing.
Unforttunately I am back for more and continuing to find more frustration!
Is it asking too much when buying 20 to 60 acres to want to verify:
true legal access
who has mineral rights
any easements (who may also be going over my property)
How do you actually know the borders of what you are buying if they are not staked and marked to the survey
On my 3rd realtor and they all seem that I am over scrutinizing minutae
Did anyone here buy with these items unknown?
Thanks,
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Dillio187
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# Posted: 1 Aug 2013 03:58pm
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you'll have a hard time getting property boundaries clearly marked when buying rural property. If you want to hire a surveyor, you will probably get 'close enough'
As far as mineral rights, easements etc, call the county the land is located in, and give them the legal numbering for the property, and they can tell you most of that.
Don't trust a realtor to know any of that (as you've found out)
FWIW I did buy my 20 acres without having clearly defined property lines. I have walked them out and know roughly where they are at.
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rayyy
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# Posted: 1 Aug 2013 04:46pm
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You are wise to learn of these problems befor they become your problem.Realtors (like car salesmen)can't make money if they are honest.
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VC_fan
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# Posted: 1 Aug 2013 05:04pm
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I agree with Dillio187. I recently bought about 100 acres. It "started about there" and ended "about there". There were some marked trees here and there. No pins. No definite boundaries. Where this is, some land will have a modern survey and some won't. After I bought it I had it surveyed and found that I owned my neighbor's well and back yard and it looked for a time like another neighbor owned my driveway. I decided I wasn't going to do anything with the place (too many neighbors!) and sold it. After having had it surveyed, I sold it for a little more than I'd paid. Buying it without pins and a modern survey had been risky and the new buyer was willing to pay more to have that risk removed. I then bought another about 100 acres that has an even worse survey. So you have to be careful but with country property you sometimes just have to do what due diligence you can and then take a chance. To minimize your risk you can always stay home and watch TV. You're wise to be careful but you may need to reexamine your risk tolerance if it's keeping you from getting a great place. If these things remain deal breakers, you can always make the purchase contingent on an acceptable survey or title search (as long as you're willing to pay for it).
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Rick004
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# Posted: 1 Aug 2013 05:21pm
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Wow I feel your pain !!! I just started a post a few days ago ( property problems in Quebec ) we thought we were buying 2.8 acres with deeded access to a lake and have had our trailer on it for 2 seasons and cleared trees only to find out we're on the wrong lot and the real lot we purchased isn't 2.8 acres but 1.6 acres !! We are negotiating with the owner and realtor right now and hopefully I will be getting reimbursed 4000$ . We paid 11,900$ for the property ! I'm really not sure if I'm doing the right thing but the thought of court and lawyers don't appeal to me !!
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PA_Bound
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# Posted: 1 Aug 2013 05:23pm - Edited by: PA_Bound
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Dillio and rayyy are both correct. You are wise to ask these questions before buying, but know that just in asking you put the transaction at risk.
Negotiating on land, like anything, is a balancing act. The first property I placed an offer on had a second offer placed just after mine. Although I offered a higher price the seller accepted the 2nd offer because it had no contingincies and mine did (related to testing of an existing well, at my cost). The 2nd offer was just easier so the the seller traded my additional money for easy closure.
My suggestion is that when you locate a property you are intersted in, do as much of this research as you can yourself so to make the deal easier on the Seller. The real estate agent, and possibly the Seller also, may not have the answers. And if they're not motivated to sell, they won't be motivated to put much effort into your questions. Get the tax number of the property and plan a trip to the local courthouse and property.
When you are looking at 20-60 acres, properties this size are often not clearly marked. But the real estate agent should be able to at least provide the survey description from the deed and with that at least try to find the property corners. If you can't find the property corners on your own, I would get a professional surveyor to do it. This is the one area that burned me after my land purchase.
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PA_Bound
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# Posted: 1 Aug 2013 05:53pm
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Oh, and by the way, the other advantage of doing your own research is that you will learn more about the property than you thought to ask about, and you will also meet people who may be very helpful down the road.
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Kudzu
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# Posted: 1 Aug 2013 05:58pm
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Look up the property on Google Maps, then with copy in hand walk the property. If you have a title search done by a real estate attorney, it will show any easements, etc. Mineral rights are a different story, it depends on what part of the country you are buying land in. For instance, a lot of mineral rights were sold in the early 1900's in PA, OH, WV and other areas. Most acreage in states like, MS, AL, AR, LA have at least a portion of the minerals intact with the land. If you have a title check done by a competent attorney, tell him you are interested in the mineral ownership. All of this will cost you, but you can do most yourself. Forget about calling the County Courthouse and asking them for this info, they will tell you to call an attorney to do the work for you. However, you can go to the courthouse with the description of your land in hand and the clerk's office employees will get you started in the right direction.
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PA_Bound
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# Posted: 1 Aug 2013 10:50pm - Edited by: PA_Bound
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Kudzu... I would suggest that all courthouses are not as uncooperative as you suggest. I am on a first-name basis with the Recorder of Deeds at the courthouse local to my property, and she even gave me her direct e-mail address and phone number which I have used repeatedly. I have found them to be extremely helpful.
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Kudzu
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# Posted: 2 Aug 2013 08:17am
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I have never seen a courthouse that you can call and ask them to check and see what mineral interest if any will transfer with a tract of land I might or might not buy and while you are at it, check and see if there are any easements on the property I might or might not buy.
I would suggest you call the courthouse of your choosing and ask these questions and report back with your findings. 
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Rossman
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# Posted: 2 Aug 2013 08:28am - Edited by: Rossman
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I'd suggest that if your local courthouse can't readily answer that, or point you to where you can get your answer, that probably isn't something to be concerned about in that municipality.
On the other hand if they seem to know a little *too* much about it, that would be an indicator of activity of that nature in the area.
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PA_Bound
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# Posted: 2 Aug 2013 10:52am
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The local courthouse e-mailed me .pdf versions of all deeds recorded since 1981, for mine and three other lots that neighbor my property. I think it totaled 9 different documents. I never even went to the courthouse itself. The first time I called to get the current deeds, but when I needed the historicals I requested all those via e-mail. Oh... and they never charged even a dime to get them.
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Kudzu
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# Posted: 2 Aug 2013 11:07am
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Great, but that does not tell you if you own the minerals under your land or if there are any easements crossing your land.
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PA_Bound
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# Posted: 2 Aug 2013 11:17am
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Whatever works for you then, dude. Do it your way.
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Kudzu
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# Posted: 2 Aug 2013 11:29am
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No really, think about it, if you have all the deeds that have been recorded since 1981, how is that going to tell you that your mineral rights, coal rights and oil and gas rights were sold 1n 1910?
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Martian
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# Posted: 2 Aug 2013 12:53pm
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Because the current deed will reference those agreements....at least all of mine do.
Tom
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PA_Bound
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# Posted: 3 Aug 2013 09:41am
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Kudzu, here is what I was referring to. On the General Warrenty Deed for my property, in "Attachment "A" Deed Description Rider", along with the property description and the conveyed right-of-way for access is this statement:
"SUBJECT to coal and mining rights, rights of way, easements, building lines, covenenants, conditions, restrictions, etc., as may appear in prior instruments of record".
I agree that doesn't tell me much. But my property was created in 1981 after a larger farm was sub-divided into smaller properties. When I obtained a copy of the first deed created when the lot was subdivided in 1981, it contained the references in the following screen-shots.
There was one other deed recorded between the original and mine, but it included no changes.
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Kudzu
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# Posted: 3 Aug 2013 10:34am - Edited by: Kudzu
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Yes I see, you have proved my point, thank you. Just because your property was subdivided off a larger tract in 1981 does not mean it starts over. It is subject to all prior mineral reservations and conveyances. If your property is located in Pennsylvania, there is a very good chance you do not own your minerals or oil and gas rights. Pennsylvania was one of the first states to drill for and produce oil, speculators zoomed in and started buying mineral rights and oil and gas rights in the early 1900's. Something else that is unique to PA is that mineral rights and oil and gas rights are not the same, the reservation language in the deed has to be specific to reserve oil and gas.
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PA_Bound
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# Posted: 3 Aug 2013 12:10pm - Edited by: PA_Bound
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Okay... I'm done here. I was tired of this discussion yesterday, and I'm even more tired of it now so I'm going to let my potion it die without further response.
ATB... sorry for hijacking your original post with this banter- but I think you got some good information are where to start looking for answers, should you decide to seek them.
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Kudzu
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# Posted: 3 Aug 2013 12:27pm
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Whatever, dude.
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