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bluebruin
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# Posted: 10 Mar 2013 12:03am
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Hello all, new here. My family and I live in Colorado, and all of the counties in the desirable mountain areas that are within a reasonable driving distance from our permanent residence require building permits. We have located a mining claim 2.3 acres that we would love to buy, it is very affordable and meets all of our wants (close to historic town, ski resort nearby, very remote, surrounded by national forest, and is very cheap). However, the county website clearly states the following under its exemptions from a permit:
"One-story (10 feet in height at the eave wall) detached accessory structures (i.e. shed) if the floor area does not exceed 200 square feet (Note: structure must adhere to appropriate setbacks). Property must have an existing single family structure."
That means we would be required to pull permits to build ANYTHING permanent. The county is under the 2006 IRC. So, if I understand that right, that means you must have: foundation, a well, septic, electricicty, etc etc... We want none of these things (and we can't afford them either).
We want to jeep/snowmobile in to a primitive hut/cabin that has no electricity (except maybe a solar panel running a few lights) and a camping toilet that we pack out. The point for us is to leave civilization behind and be in the wild, high altitude rockies.
I am sure you are familiar with this site: http://www.tumbleweedhouses.com/
They make the "houses to go" where it is just a cabin built on a flatbed trailer. You could look at this as an RV, or a cabin sitting on trailer.... My idea is to buy/build one, and drive it up to this plot of land and park it. Has anybody in Colorado done this successfully?
I checked the county website and reviewed their land development code. I won't bore you with the details, but it appears that nothing prohibits "camping"I won't go into great deail, but after reading the on your land in your "rv". Of course, you can read the same code and depending on which side of the fence you are on, you will interpret it and argue it with opposite objectives. So, if they don't agree with what I am doing, I lose.
But its the only way I can see a possibility of making my family's dream a reality. We can't afford any properties with an existing structure, we have been searching to no avail.
Thanks
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 10 Mar 2013 12:46am
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You've done your homework and now IMO, its time to ask the county what they need you to do to camp on the property and not get into trouble. The IRC does not say you need electricity it says what must be done if you have electricity. The described 200 ft building is not to be lived in and cant be built without a cabin there first
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Just
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# Posted: 10 Mar 2013 08:28am
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Anonymous is right .call and ask, then you can move forward.you should know now, before you make an offer.sounds like a great site.
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BadgersHollow
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# Posted: 10 Mar 2013 11:26am
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I'd call and ask, but wouldn't give them my name or tax lot. Call me paranoid. I live in OR and I don't think there is any zoning that allows for camping. However, that is just what I do. Thankfully, I have good neighbors and am a good neighbor.
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MtnManDan
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# Posted: 10 Mar 2013 12:04pm
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Hello Bluebruin, and everyone else. I am fairly new to this great forum, and like many....have been lingering. You are in a somewhat very similar situation as I am. I have a 5 acre mining claim fully patented in Gilpin County, Colorado. We are just starting up the process of hopefully building a small log cabin with trees from our land, and the standing dead trees in surrounding national forest.
I have talked to the necessary people with the forest service and am applying for a firewood permit, they actually want to see my property in the next couple months as not many people ask them to use trees for log cabins and not firewood.... As far as the county, I did meet with them and the very first thing I came across is that the codes so far seem pretty stringent. As soon as the snow melts I am getting a Land Plat Survey done and filing it with the county. Then I will go through the process of trying to get a building permit for something that may be tough....As I also want to build my cabin up the mountain more than 100 yards off the road and only have foot or ATV access. The septic system may be the problem, but maybe there are the "Special Use" permits that will allow for something. I am going to adhere to the counties codes all the way, as I want this little place to pass on for many years to come.
Anyway, I almost get the feeling that I can camp just outside of my property in NF and dig my "catholes" and go to the bathroom anywhere as long as away from water.....But on my private land it is not allowed....? If I park an RV, I must have an approved septic system. No permanent structures unless a dwelling is on site, even though I need to build a shed to house some tools before building a cabin.
If anyone can give tips to us also, we are interested.
So sorry Bluebruin that I not quite have answers for you...But I will learn a lot these next 2 summers!
Good luck!
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 10 Mar 2013 10:10pm
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In my state, RV's, there is one that look just like a cabin called a "Park Model"
http://www.athensparkhomes.com/park-homes/York,-Nebraska/172
You may ask if you can put in an RV space, ie septic and a concrete pad. Set it down in a pit, then drive in your park model. Block the thing, add cinder block sides and then backfill it. Then you have a legal cabin, with no permit. If its under 400 square foot, its a park model RV.
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bluebruin
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# Posted: 10 Mar 2013 10:13pm
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hi there dan. I applaud you for going the above the table route and going fully permitted. I would also prefer a permanent structure that was fully permitted. However, I worked in the construction/design industry for 10 years and I know once you get that train moving in that direction there is no stopping it. I cannot even begin to afford all the CONVENIENCES that I know the code will require. I call them conveniences for the most part, because having a well is simply a convenience, I can bring my own water with me each time I use the cabin. Having a septic is simply a convenience, I can pack out my waste in a camping toilet etc etc But, luckily the government is there to tell me what conveniences I need to have, or I would be totally lost! ok, anyway...
If you are not educated about building codes, I suggest you try to read some books (if there are any) that try to give you the cliffnotes in lay mans terms. Going through the building codes is like a wild goose chase. You start trying to research one issue, and before you know it, you've referenced a dozen other codes and sections and you can't remember what you trying to lookup. That's where the officials have you. They can pretty much require whatever they want, and you'll never really be able to prove otherwise. Not trying to scare you, just know that you are in for making a remote little cabin into a full fledged house (because that's what the IRC is setup to build). Asking things like why can I poop in a hole on NF land and not on my own land will not get you anywhere, because the codes do not have any common sense applied to them. They are a one size fits all solution to some problem that society has encountered at one time or another. For example, if you didn't require a septic, some people out there would literally just go crap int the stream in front of their house year round and infect the rest of us. But, those people ruined it for all of us, so now you can't build a cabin where you are responsible and pack out your waste.
So, in my view, if you want a totally rustic cabin, you have to try to find away around being required to get a permit and meet the IRC. The only way I can see to do that, is make your cabin portable and call it an RV.
I started by emailing the county from an alternate address to see if they have any special allowances for a small cabin, but I pretty much know the answer to that. Next I'll try calling with the camping question.
They problem I have, is I don't want to spend thousands building my mobile cabin and haul it up there and then a year later have the county come tell me to remove it, even if they told me I could camp or park an RV there. I am sure they would take one look at it and say that's a cabin (simply by the way it looks, rather than its function). However, if come in there asking about this particular idea, I am sure they will just automatically say no, you can't do that. My experience with building departments, is that if they have not seen it before, they automatically default to saying you can't do it. They will find the support for their position in their code later if they have to, since there any number of avenues within a code to classify things.
But who knows, maybe I'll catch the person on a good day and they'll be receptive. I don't know that I have any other chance of making my cabin dream come true. I just don't have any money for surveys, $20k septics, $20k wells, paying concrete trucks to go up some 4x4 trail etc... I hope your project turns out well and I hope you have some cash set aside for construction.
In the meantime, is there anybody out there who has tried the RV approach?
Sorry for being so negative, I didn't use to be that way, but after working in that industry for so long and then trying to make improvements to my own house, its always been met with negativity and $ signs on the government side.
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TrueCabin
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# Posted: 11 Mar 2013 12:44am
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If there were no codes, the countryside would be ruined. Every stream polluted, well water polluted. We have codes and that is good. Most people can't get along without rules, they mess things up and then neighbors feud more.  Nowadays they don't point guns they just carry them on their leg then each call the building insopector of the other guy
But what you are doing is a vacation cabin. It's not full time, and it won't cause any real problems. Hide it from view, so busy-bee neighbors don't have to bother their minds. Care for the land, neighbors will respect that and your land will be better too. Just be a good neighbor you'll be fine. Hope your land can hide your RV.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 11 Mar 2013 01:57pm
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Here is what you do. Go to your county and ask for a copy of the building codes. Nobody here can give you the right answer here since codes vary from county to county. If you can't afford a legal cabin save your money until you can afford it!
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Fusil62
Member
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# Posted: 11 Mar 2013 02:13pm
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We looked at using a camper in MN, but they have an annual fee. Instead we went slower and complied with code. They said we needed a privy first and let us use 2 50 gal Plastic drums. that now has changed but they did not make us upgrade when we built a permitted shed.
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MtnManDan
Member
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# Posted: 11 Mar 2013 07:01pm
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TrueCabin is correct, we need these codes. I hope they can work with us somewhat though.
Bluebruin, my county states that there are NO campers, camp shelters , or camp equipment allowed more than 30 days. Less then 30, on vacant land sanitation must be removed to approved dump site. Improved land waste can be removed or has to have connection to approved ISDS system. So at my place, I could not park an RV permanently.
My plans will be to submit to county for my "Restricted Occupancy" (less than 90 days) log cabin and hopefully eventually meet Foundation, Structure, Snow and Wind load codes.
I do not need to have electricity.
Water supply can be portable, it will be via 12 volt pump and portable 15 gallon water tank, to a mandatory fixed sink and mandatory fixed shower. The shower will be a fixed outdoor shower just outside of water and sink wall and heated with a portable Eccotemp L5 tankless water heater. The Greywater from shower will "T" into sink drain underground coming out of cabin to an approved Greywater system. I am hoping it does not have to be a full blown system as greywater will be minimal....This is where I will go back and forth.
The septic will have to be as light as possible, county states that approved NSF/ANSI Composting or incinerating toilets are okay. I know that they are at least $1,000.00 plus for these. I will have to bite the bullet on it as vault toilets are NOT allowed and a septic tank and field can not be reached and pumped. We have our camping porta-potti but I am sure the little thing is not allowed. It does not hold much. But if they go for something like this it would save a fortune....
I know I have a long road ahead of me.
Good luck to you.
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razmichael
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# Posted: 11 Mar 2013 07:13pm
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Quoting: MtnManDan it will be via 12 volt pump and portable 15 gallon water tank,
Obviously every area is different but be careful (do your research) with this. I was allowed a grey water pit but only with "non pressurized" water source- and this excluded an electric pump and even a raised container run with gravity. Only a hand or foot pump.
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MtnManDan
Member
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# Posted: 11 Mar 2013 08:04pm
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Wow, thanks razmichael.
My fingers are crossed on that one too.
I'm running out of fingers to cross...
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BadgersHollow
Member
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# Posted: 11 Mar 2013 08:37pm
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I mentioned earlier that I camp on my land with a trailer. It's 30 feet long. I park it in May and leave it until October. I don't have the money to build right now and am still trying to decide exactly what I want.
One thing I did to solve the septic problem is representative in the photo. I found one just like this on Craigslist. I think I paid 50 bucks, used...a little ewwww factor, but oh well. I put it in a small utility trailer just down grade from my RV. Dump into it each weekend. When it gets half full, it's easy to hook up and drive down to an RV dump station. I get my money's worth (5 dollar fee)!!! So far, no one has complained about me dumping the mother load.
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BadgersHollow
Member
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# Posted: 11 Mar 2013 08:38pm
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Oh, it holds 250 gallons, I believe.
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BadgersHollow
Member
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# Posted: 11 Mar 2013 08:41pm
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And, I just found one new for 399 bucks online!
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MtnManDan
Member
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# Posted: 11 Mar 2013 09:00pm
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Thanks for that info BadgersHollow, it gives some of us another option to toss around.
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BadgersHollow
Member
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# Posted: 11 Mar 2013 09:08pm
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Yeah, no problem. Here is a link to make it a little more searchable.
http://water-tanks.org/?page_id=182
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TheWildMan
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 08:09am
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RVs and portable storage sheds are usually exempt from codes, my state is one of the strictest ones in the union and they exempt them. the reason is that they are portable. a built on site structure that is perminent is something that affects property value (and therfeore tax revenue for town/county. if its perminent they require it be nice and valuable (so they can tax that value) they generally have an all or nothing perspective, leave it vacant and potential to build but if you want to build it has to be profitable to them. portable structures (on wheels or built on skids to be loaded and unloaded on trailers) are by definitian not perminent structures, the land is still vacant/undeveloped. if they try taxing a portable structure you could move it to another lot in a day and the lot reverts back to vacant land. if its just parked there it can be moved if someone complains (there are a few people who are living in small RVs paying rent for a parking space in big cities, parking next to where they work, cheap RV living website).
if its portable it is just parked there
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bluebruin
Member
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# Posted: 14 Mar 2013 12:42am
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those are some good ideas and plans Dan. I hope it works out well!
Another thing I came across would be to build a Yurt. They might be covered under a different section of the code, under alternative construction methods which include "membrane structures". Yurts typically are build on a deck platform rather than a foundation. That could save some money.
http://www.yurtinfo.org/buildingcodes.php
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MtnManDan
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# Posted: 15 Mar 2013 06:21am
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Thanks Blue, there is actually a yurt a couple miles from my property, I think they even rent it out.
Who knows, if all with a seasonal log cabin fails....I could start looking into a yurt.....
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exsailor
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# Posted: 15 Mar 2013 02:02pm
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I am still looking about and planning to build a cabin, once I get some issues solved. If one has a motor home/RV, could a garage be built on the property to store the RV inside, without a house on the property? Build the "garage" tight and then build an enclosed lean to and turn it into a living room. I am sure zoning could be an issue, with my plans. Location and zoning is probably another thing to consider. Maybe that would work here.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 15 Mar 2013 02:06pm
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Quoting: exsailor could a garage be built on the property to store the RV inside, without a house
the only good answers on questions like this come from the local authorities. where we live the answer is no, where our cabin is they don't mind even tho the rule says no garage before house
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burtonridr
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# Posted: 23 May 2013 01:27pm
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Quoting: bluebruin Sorry for being so negative, I didn't use to be that way, but after working in that industry for so long and then trying to make improvements to my own house, its always been met with negativity and $ signs on the government side.
+1 I've also been on the design side of the industry for about 8yrs now... I cant believe the far reaching affects of the codes, its my belief that they should not apply in some of the areas where most people here build their cabins. A cabin in the woods is just fundamentally different than a house in a subdivision within a city. But there is very little exception within the codes to acknowledge those differences.
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burtonridr
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# Posted: 23 May 2013 01:30pm
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Quoting: razmichael Obviously every area is different but be careful (do your research) with this. I was allowed a grey water pit but only with "non pressurized" water source- and this excluded an electric pump and even a raised container run with gravity. Only a hand or foot pump.
This is the route I'm going, a 12v pump can be concealed easy enough.
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Truecabin
Member
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# Posted: 24 May 2013 10:50am
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they only want to know the amount of water is limited then it causes no problems
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Truecabin
Member
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# Posted: 24 May 2013 10:52am - Edited by: Truecabin
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this is a good way but it cant work with a lot of people
Somebody pushes it to the limit then more people do it and then they need a code to protect the groundwater for everybody down stream
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 24 May 2013 01:59pm
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Use of RVs on your property will be covered in the local planning ordinances, not building codes. Where I am they will allow only a certain number of RVs on a given lot, without an RV park license, which you won't want to do.
RVs don't hold up well to snow or being left out in the rain for years. So sometimes people build a roof over it. Where I am, they call this a ramada, and require engineering and a permit.
My solution, until I build a permitted cottage, is to use a folding tent trailer in summer. I built a small A frame shed to store it in to keep the weather off it.
I thought about getting an Airstream or something like that, but the snow would destroy it, but also, I've lived in an RV and it stinks. For a week or so now and then, OK, but not for the long haul. Unprotected, eventually it rots, then you have a pile of junk on your hands.
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Mister Furry
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# Posted: 4 May 2015 12:19pm
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Here's an interesting document from Gilpin County. Notice how many features can be "portable" rather than "fixed" if the dwelling is considered Restricted Occupancy as MtnManDan pointed out: http://co.gilpin.co.us/CommunityDevelop/Building/Amd6SeasCabin.pdf
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