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Hinezy
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# Posted: 4 Feb 2013 10:43pm
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Just wanted to introduce myself and my new property. I'm from central PA and purchased a 100' x 50' secluded lot on a small trout stocked creek. My property has an old travel trailer with an addition that I'll be ripping down at first crack of spring. I'm hoping to learn a lot here!
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hattie
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# Posted: 4 Feb 2013 11:39pm
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Welcome to the forum Hinezy. Please post pictures when you get them. Congratulations on your new property!!
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2013 07:56am
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I assume that you have investigated the applicable sewage regulations. Around where my property is, if one replaces an existing structure with a new structure, the septic system needs to meet current regs, whereas as long as the existing structure is in place, it's sepic system is "grandfathered" (as long as it isn't failing.)
Although in my area normally no septic permits are needed for parcels exceeding (3) acres, land adjoining the lake requires a permit regardless of the parcel size. If you are adjacent to a stocked creek, you may have the same situation.
5,000 square feet is not much ground if the septic system needs upgraded.
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PA_Bound
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2013 08:12am
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Welcome to the neighborhood Hinezy! I have a cabin in Bedford county, and am a partner in a hunting cabin/property in Huntingdon county.
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Hinezy
Member
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2013 10:21am
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Nice to see some local Pennsylvanians! My new camp is 1 mile behind Knoebels Grove! The existing structure doesn't have a septic system. There is an outhouse that is grandfathered in so ill be maintaining that. There is also a shallow well and electricity on site. I'm debating on what I want to put on the property. A cabin, a travel trailer, I'm not really sure. I have a pop up camper to get me by until I decide.
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PA_Bound
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2013 12:07pm
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There are a few of us that participate on this forum. So between us, and the many other knowledgeable folks from all over the world that participate, there are not many questions we can't provide answers or guidance to. Good luck on your decision making!
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yankeesouth
Member
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2013 03:51pm
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I agree with Anon.....Before you rip everything out/down check regs and what you have to build around. I had a couple PA properties and it's sometimes easier.....less red tape.....to work with what you have.
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Jerry
Member
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2013 04:18pm
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In Minnesota, or maybe just in my county, an outhouse, or privy as the regs call it, is a septic system. When I bought my cabin I didn't file a property transfer document related to septic system inspection, and promptly received a letter from the county saying that my transfer would not be completed until that inspection was done by a certified septic system inspector. I arranged it, the inspector came and required that part of the system be uncovered, so I did it. He then augered down a full 6' just outside the privy to take core samples. After measuring the distances between the septic field (one pipe), the well and the privy, he told me I was granfathered in until I apply for a building permit for any future work, and at that time I'd have to bring everything up to code.
I'd recommend you find out what the rules and definitions are before you proceed. Then you can make your decisions based on knowledge and not get caught with your pants down, (pun intended).
Jerry
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2013 05:07pm
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I was talking with a septic contract in my area (7,800 acre Corp of Engineers lake in the Ozarks) who had several stories of people with very small "lake-front" lots that wanted septic systems, and were willing to pay for septic systems, but were unable to pull permits for anything other than a holding tank, which would require periodic pumping.
He also mentioned having to bring in an excavator-mounted hammer to break up the rock to install these holding tanks.
Very expensive holding tanks.
Agreed that one must be completely familiar with the sewage regulations when one is considering waterfront property.
If I have a well drilled, there are also extra rules concerning casing requirements- the state is concerned about lake water contaminating the ground water.
I know nothing about the original poster's geographic area or what laws/ regs he has to deal with but there are many of these tiny lots around my lake and with the new regs. these lots are pretty much unusable unless you have several contiguous lots. They generally sell pretty cheap (although if one figures out one's cost on a "per acre" basis, then they don't seem so cheap).
Don't mean to rain on anyone's parade, but I've seen people have problems with very small waterfront lots.
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PA_Bound
Member
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2013 06:42pm
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Anonymous... the OP is indicating that he has an outhouse that is "grandfathered in". Assuming that to be correct (and that he has confirmed that with the township or other permitting authority), there is no problem there. And as for holding tanks, or what PA calls a "vault privy", my experience is (and we have a permitted vault privy at our hunting camp) they are pretty cheap. Now we didn't have to break any rock to install ours, but we had 1000 gallon tank installed for a couple hundred bucks. I think they're a great option for road accessible, limited-use camps.
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BoatMan
Member
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2013 08:59pm
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The "anonymous" posts above are mine. Was on a different computer and could not remember the password.
A holding tank is not the same as a vault privy:
http://www.freewebs.com/seorich/holdingtanks.htm
$200.00 won't even cover the minimum charge for a backhoe to come out where I am ($60/hr, minimum 6 hrs) , let alone cover the cost of the vault (let alone, a holding tank).
How much ground do you have at your "hunting camp?" And is the privy next to a stocked stream? There are no septic restrictions at all in my county if your parcel is (3) acres or larger EXCEPT if you join the lake, in which case it doesn't matter how many acres one has, it has to go through the permitting process.
Sometimes being next to the water brings a whole new set of issues to deal with. As well it should. I have no interest in being next to a polluted lake. I assume the O.P. has little interest in being next to a polluted stream.
The problem is that lots that were subdivided decades ago may not mesh well with new regulations, which means a lot of restrictions on what you can do with these lots. These restrictions can hurt the utility of these lots, and the monetary value as well.
Now, if your needs mesh well with such restricted use, then these small lots may represent good value, as many others (myself included) prefer to avoid the more onerous restrictions.
I go to the woods to get away from rules & red tape; not to find more of it.
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PA_Bound
Member
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2013 09:23pm - Edited by: PA_Bound
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Yes... I know a "vault privy" is not the same as a "holding tank". But holding tanks are illegal in PA and cannot be permitted except for very rare circumstances. Vault privies are the accepted (but sometimes not preferred) alternative.
As for the original post, I'm taking at "face vaue" what the OP said about his current outhouse being grandfathered, allowed and legal. If that is not the case... then your points are 100% valid. But if the OP is correct, they are maybe not relevant to his particular circumstances- but certainly still of value to others that may read these posts in the future.
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