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kanesta
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# Posted: 4 Feb 2013 09:36pm
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Hello everyone, my first post here after lurking for a while.
Building an off-grid cabin has been a longtime dream of mine but suddenly I got the possibility economically to get some land, so now I am starting to seriously look. But I'm a little naive about property so what questions should I ask to make sure I can do what I need to with the land, which would be:
1. Have a decent size, few-room cabin, possibly with a loft or upper room. With a solar electrical system.
2. Have an access road (probably from a logging road or chemin forestier)
3. Eventually have some kind of decent water/shower setup (an artesian well??)
4. Have a yurt and a woodshed
How can I make sure that these things will be allowed or even possible (especially the road and the well, if it's necessary) BEFORE I buy the property? I would not like to find that I am not able to have these things after the fact.
Is it a really big deal/expense to create an access road? How is that even done?
Thank you so much for any advice you may have!
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razmichael
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2013 08:06am
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Hi Kanesta - welcome. If you search through the forum you will find numerous threads along the line of "what can I build and what permits do I need (if any)". There will be lots of speculative responses but in the end, the only people who can really tell you is the local town or municipal office. As in most places, the rules change from place to place. Quebec has some province wide strict rules regarding waterfront and the over arching national and provincial codes but after that it is local and can change from one side of the road to the other. We just built in the fall where the permit process was fast and simple (10 minutes and $50). We had already put in an outhouse ($20 permit), a grey water pit ($20) and a short driveway (no permit needed). As a recreational building we cannot live there full time nor have pressurized water (hence the outhouse - no septic needed). We did need to have a septic engineer do a report to say we could put in a septic if we (or future owners) wanted one ($300).
So, ask around the neighbours, do some research to understand the overall national and provincial codes then, assuming you do not want to do this under the radar, go talk to the local office. It is important to understand the provincial codes - when we first started we were told we needed to put in a septic system. I was able to point out the provincial regulations and, as they had no additional by-laws about this, they agreed that I was correct.
Quebec local by-laws will vary greatly by location.
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kanesta
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2013 06:46pm
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Okay that helps, thanks. I want to do things legally and get all the permits -- I am the kind of guy that would not have peace of mind otherwise.
Do you think I could actually apply for them before actually finishing the property transfer and, if they are rejected, look elsewhere? In any case I will write to or visit them in person once I am leaning towards a property.
If it is in a non-organized territory area then I think it's under direct control of the regional county municipality (MRC) and that would be the only source of by-laws and the only regulation apart from provincial and national, if I understand correctly.
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razmichael
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2013 06:59pm
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Highly unlikely you will get anything in writing until you own the land but, if you can, call and make an appointment to meet (generally better to have a good discussion face to face). This should let you know what you can and cannot do. I had a couple of years of legal ownership stuff to get through but,spent that,time putting in dock, outhouse etc. this also helped develop a good relationship which cannot hurt the process. The office had my building permit all ready to go at the end but could not release it until a final registration with the province was complete. Despite this,she let me start the digging for the foundation a few days early.
If you are are in a non-organized area you should have little problems getting a cabin up. It may depend on whether you want a septic system but hopefully no 'gotchas'.
Good luck and make sure you report back. What general area are you in?
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kanesta
Member
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2013 07:20pm
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I been looking at different areas in Quebec but right now looking at northern Lanaudière and western Mauricie -- I want isolated but doable as a weekend from Montreal (let's say not more than 5 hours door to door). I'm going on a snowmobile trip up there next weekend and I will tell people what I am looking for. As far as looking online goes it's tough -- I want a wild forest area out of town and it's hard to tell from maps what parts belong to a ZEC, what could be crown land, what could be private land. What I am finding on Web sites of the municipalities and kijiji and from calls to real estate agents is mostly small plots in towns and on resort lakes -- way above my budget and not my style. So right now I am just asking around and hoping to meet the right people, but any other ideas would be welcome.
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razmichael
Member
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2013 07:37pm
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Sorry, don't know the area at all but it would seem that you are looking far enough away from Montreal to be able to find what you want.
I dug up a link I used reference regulations respecting waste water disposal systems for isolated dwellings in Quebec Wast Water - Quebec . It can be a bit hard to follow at times. The paragraphs that I used are listed below (you will need to review the details in the sub paras) - note that they are not shown in order here but there is a logic! I can't really add any details about building an access road because it depends on so many factors. This is where talking to locals to find some good contractors is so valuable. As far as permits - again, you need to ask and do the required due diligence on any legal issues regarding the land.
DIVISION XI
PRIVIES
47. Disposal site: Construction of a privy is permitted provided the following conditions are met:
48. Construction standards: Every privy must include a pit, construction sill, a floor, a seat, a shelter and a mound.
49. Use: A privy must be used as follows:
50. Location: The privy must be installed in such a way as to comply with the minimum distances provided for in section 7.2.
7.2. Non-watertight system: Every disposal system or part of such system that is not watertight must be installed in a place
52. Isolated dwelling without a pressurized water system: Where a privy serves an isolated dwelling which is not supplied by a pressurized water pipe and which is inhabited less than 180 days per year, grey water must be purified by a seepage pit built in accordance with the standards in paragraphs c and d of section 32, paragraphs c and d of section 34, section 35, and with the following standards:
32. Disposal site: Where the effluent of a treatment system is carried towards a soil absorption system and a soil absorption field or a seepage bed may not be built because it is impossible to comply with the standards in section 18 or 28, the treatment system must be connected to one or more seepage pits insofar as the following conditions are met:
34. Construction standards: A seepage pit cast in place must comply with the following standards:
35. Other standards: Section 7.2, subparagraphs f and h.1 of the first paragraph of section 21 and section 24 apply, with the necessary modifications, to a seepage pit.
24. Covering: The disposal site of a soil absorption field must be covered with a layer of soil permeable to air sloped to facilitate the drainage of run-off water and stabilized with grass-type vegetation.
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kanesta
Member
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2013 08:10pm
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Thank you very much for the info!
Also do you know if it is possible to buy a "camp de chasse" - hunting camp and use it residentially (maybe by changing the permits/building)?
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razmichael
Member
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2013 08:23pm
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No idea. If it does not have an approved septic then technically I would say no because it is not going to be used as an isolated dwellings. Again, it might depend on how picky they are.
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TheCabinCalls
Member
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# Posted: 6 Feb 2013 12:42pm
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From my experience:
- Don't assume you are good to go, especially if someone selling you something tells you so.
- Call those really in charge of land rules, building codes, etc. Anyone else will not give it to you straight.
- Call a neighbor if you can find one. What issues if any did they run into?
- Call builders/excavators in the area. They might not give you prices over the phone, but they will tell you what you're up against.
- Look at the deed restrictions. Here in the states they are getting pretty complicated with every passing generation.
I know it is easy to think about the end goal, which is putting up a structure, but before you get ahead of yourself. Do the non-fun part of researching it to death.
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Rick004
Member
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# Posted: 6 Feb 2013 07:58pm
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Salut Kanesta !! I am on the Quebec side about an hour north of Ottawa in Kazabazua ! I purchased 3 acres with deeded water access for 11,900$ there are still 2 lots left one is 6 acres at 16,900$ and the other is 2.5 acres at 11,900$ it would be about 3 hours from Montreal ! Amazing fishing , hunting , skidooing !!
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 8 Feb 2013 03:00pm
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I'm still at the daydreaming part of a cabin buying experience...I'm in Quebec City and was wondering...how did you guys find your piece of land? Driving through or looking at lespac.com / remax or something else?
Cheers
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Rick004
Member
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# Posted: 8 Feb 2013 03:18pm
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I found my lot on a website Mls.ca it has listings right across Canada , I have family in Quebec City by the way and my family originates from St.Georges de Beauce !! Beautiful area !
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kanesta
Member
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# Posted: 10 Feb 2013 09:55pm
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Great to meet other Quebecers! It's addictive looking at all these sites -- I'm really envious of people in northern Ontario as there seems to be a ton, and less in QC. As soon as the snow melts I'm going to start driving around and looking too.
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andrew_zytic
Member
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# Posted: 14 Jun 2013 01:31pm
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Check out my older post for issues similar to yours.
http://www.small-cabin.com/forum/5_837_0.html
In general, don't count on being able to build an off grid cabin WITHOUT SEPTIC. Most municipalities now will not let you build a hunt camp. Those that do usually have a size restriction on your property, often it has to be at least 40 acres.
If you want a hunt camp your best bet is to buy one already existing. If you want to be sure you can have a cottage on your property it is best to buy a property that already has one. If money is tight look for a fixer/upper. Worst case scenario is you can tear it down mostly and rebuild in same footprint.
That said, for being allowed to build you are generally safe if your property is AT LEAST 1 acre (4046 square meters). Be aware that many older properties may be smaller than this and YOU MOST LIKELY WILL NOT BE ALOWED TO BUILD – don't buy it. You might think that is fine, you will just put a tent-trailer or motor home on it for a weekend or a week while you are there. WRONG! Most municipalities are moving towards where you are NOT allowed to have a tent-trailer or motor home on vacant land for even one night. They want the tax dollars and want to force you to build.
Also note that most municipalities have minimum size requirements. Generally 600 sq feet for 1 story (will allow a loft) or 1000 sq feet for 2 stories.
Also note that if your area is at risk for landslides (eg. a good slope present on your lot in an area with a lot of clay), they may require a geotechnical assessment prior to any building permit. If you border water (river, lake) this assessment is good for only 1 year!
Everything you build will pretty much require a septic system (not just a tank).
Note that you can not build your cottage closer than 15m to any body of water. In fact you can not do anything (cut trees, clear underbrush) within 15m of any body of water EXCEPT for a 5m window.
So good luck. In general check the MLS and Craigslist/Kijijji but the MLS is your best bet. Sort by area, size a +/- waterfront and go from there.
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WeekEndHack
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# Posted: 14 Jun 2013 03:49pm
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Definitely agree with the point about finding something with a structure of some sort already on it. Find a place with an old shack on it, rip it down and rebuild. In our area, seems to be what lots of folks do as the grandfathering rules get you around all the crazy $$ of starting out with something new.
We're in the Tremblant/Laurentians area and when I requested info (anonymously) from municpality on what was req'd to build small 16x20 cabin, they threw so much stuff at me it would have cost like $20k to get going (ie. architect plans, engineers, 5% tax on existing value of land, etc.).
We already have a cottage with acreage though, so I went ahead and pulled a permit on an 'outbuilding/shed' 16x20, and for $60 I was on my way. Guess its all in what you call it!
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razmichael
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# Posted: 14 Jun 2013 09:18pm
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Just so it is not all doom and gloom in Quebec , I'm typing this on my iPhone while looking at the lake with my two sons enjoying their "reading time" also on the deck - and this is in Quebec at the small 16x16 cabin built ( and work in progress) last fall. We have an outhouse and solar panels and use a grey water pit. All this through a simple permitting process and minimal cost.
The province has put in place many new regulations regarding the waterfront as mentioned by Andrew, but many of the other restrictions mentioned are local and vary. We are near Maniwaki and had a fairly easy job getting everything sorted out. We did have to get a septic engineer to do a report saying that we could put a septic in, but did not need too for a seasonal dwelling with no pressurized water.
There is still hope in Quebec!
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RnR
Member
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# Posted: 7 Mar 2014 04:28pm
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I think that if you are in a desirable "cottage country" type of area, it is much harder to get permission to build or renovate something that strays too much from the norm since everyone is concerned about property values. Our cabin municipality is actually in slight decline, meaning slightly more residents are leaving than are coming in, and I suspect that they are relying on cottage/cabin owners to increase their tax base and help the local economy even if we are not actual residents. So our experience has been that they have not been on our backs about anything, and whenever I called for information they were really helpful and didn't put up any unncecessary obstacles or sound like they were suspicious of anything we were doing.
Added to that, I helped them with some news release translations on their web site (I volunteered), and they are likely also aware that we really cleaned up our property since we bought. So really, we haven't given them any reason to be unreasonable with us.
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