What happens if you skip the permitting process?

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Small Cabin Forum / Properties / What happens if you skip the permitting process?


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Java Member	# Posted: 5 Dec 2012 03:46pm Reply What happens if you don't get a permit but build bigger than a non permitted place allows? We are in NM and I think we are allowed to build a single story no larger than 200 sq ft with no electricity and no plumbing without permit. What we want to build is a 288 (exterior sq ft) small home with a loft with standing room on one side (single slope) powered 100% by solar, using propane we get in small tanks, and using our own well. We want to build on a piece of land we currently live on....we live in a double wide trailer and plan to build then sell the trailer and get it moved off the land. So what would happen if we skipped permits? Would we get in trouble? How? What would 'they' do? Is it an absolutely terrible idea?

MtnDon Member	# Posted: 5 Dec 2012 05:11pm - Edited by: MtnDon Reply I live in NM. Here is something copied right from the NM building permit application... WHEN BUILDING PERMITS ARE NOT REQUIRED (New Mexico Residential Code 105.2) A building permit shall not be required for the following: 1. One story detached accessory buildings used as tool and storage sheds, playhouses, and similar uses, provided the floor area does not exceed 200 square feet. (My emphasis added; doesn't come close to saying you can live in it) So going by that you have two items that disqualify you from that exemption.... the size and the fact that you imply that you will live in it. Permit Info here Scroll down and select this "Building permit Guide For Residential" Before you could get a building permit, if you were getting one, you may first have to have zoning approval. ZONING APPROVAL Your project may be located in an area requiring zoning approval from a city or county zoning authority. You must obtain zoning approval and signature on the APPLICATION for STATE BUILDING PERMIT before applying to this office for the building permit. Contact the Construction Industries Division for zoning requirements in your area. If no zoning approval was obtained as well as no building permit, that's three things you'd have to face. The loft could be interpreted differently. If it did not have headroom over 5 feet it might be ignored or counted just to be storage space. If over 5 feet for half the floor area they would likely count it as a habitable space. That would then be another strike against the exemption rule. What would they do if you built and were then found out or reported? If work was in progress a Stop Work order could be posted. If you were living in it already they could post a No Occupancy order. IF the structure was compliant with all the code requirements it could be approved after the fact. If it was not compliant to their satisfaction, you could be told to make whatever changes would be needed. The last time I knew of a case of somebody being caught in the process the builder ended up paying roughly double the costs for all the permits that would have been required. He was lucky, IMO, that he was only just past the dried in stage. There was no insulation, no interior wall finishes, etc. And he had built on a code compliant foundation. He did have to dig out a hole alongside the foundation is a spot the inspector chose and was lucky that the inspector accepted photos as proof of having installed rebar correctly. On the other hand depending on where you are, how visible the project would be, how accommodating or nice the neighbors are, and maybe the phase of the moon, you may get away with it. But then you might be the personality type that would be constantly looking over their shoulder. If there was any electrical, even if not grid connected that is another permit area, another fee. I've done electrical, taken their test, paid their fee and have had the inspector look at it, pass it. Then there's the plumbing permit. To get a building permit in NM the building has to meet the energy code as well. The state and local building departments I'm familiar with all mandate the use of and submission of the REScheck forms. There is a website with a calculator tool. Google for it. Does your location have their own building department? Or are you rural enough that the permitting would be done directly with the state CID? Anyhow that is some of what yopu need to know before making a decision to forge on with any under the radar plans. G/L. PS. I do know of several unpermitted cabins that have been completed and are lived in, some full time, without any problems with any government agencies. And one in particular is in plain site to anyone in a semi developed area. So ya' never can tell.

PA_Bound Member	# Posted: 5 Dec 2012 05:21pm - Edited by: PA_Bound Reply IMHO... it's always a bad idea to avoid building permits. Will you get caught? I think everybody will... eventually. What will they do? Who knows, as it depends on too many factors. Maybe nothing... maybe make you remove it... maybe just make your life difficult... maybe make you get a permit and bring it to then code (good luck with that)... or the new one I've read about, implement property liens for back-taxes and/or criminally prosecute for tax evasion (but I think currently that's only in extreme cases). But that's just my thinking.

Java Member	# Posted: 5 Dec 2012 05:44pm Reply well, for taxes we kinda figured we'd never say anything...we would just continue to pay the taxes we have always paid on the trailer. Mtndon...I was hoping you would weigh in, saw you were in nm and seemed to know your stuff. We are in Torrance county....fairly developed neighborhood in the plains. Also a very poor area, mostly with falling apart single wides. So how hard is it to get a permit? Permits are all new to us, we have never done anything like this before. Any idea on what the sizing rules are with permits? Such as how big a bedroom must be and does it have to have a closet to be a bedroom, ect? I have googled and googled and can't find answers. To throw a wrench in it we have 2 small kids of different genders. So going by code I believe that means each would need their own room. We dream of living in a very small home. As small as we can go with 4 people and a full bathroom. Is there anyway around permits? What about those weatherking pre built sheds? We can't quite make it work in a tiny house on a trailer. :/

Anonymous	# Posted: 5 Dec 2012 06:01pm Reply Many local governments don't have great web pages spelling everything out. It's usually a million times easier just to make a quick phone call to the county building department.

MtnDon Member	# Posted: 5 Dec 2012 06:31pm Reply Building code does not address gender of the occupants. That's a parental decision up to a certain age. CYFD would have their nose in there at some point if the kids were "older" and if they knew about it. Fees: It's been a while since I've paid for permits so I'd be guessing. It does depend on sq footage though for the construction permit. DIY electrical and plumbing were $35 the last time I pulled them,,, that was for the test and permit. They assign the bldg permit fee by sq ft at the average price for a contractor cost to get a value and then charge some %. If you get someone helpful on the phone they can give you a guesstimate. Start with the local level of government. Ask who looks after bldg permits and zoning. We have friends in Valencia county who got local zoning approval very easy. Then they went to the state CID and got the permit there rather than their rural officials as they saved money that way. That was a few years ago, can't say that works today or in Torrance. [url=http://www.rld.state.nm.us/construction/] State CID website[/url] There are minimums for room sizes and a lot of other rules too. The state uses the IRC, International Residential Code, version 2009. You can find a copy online here. There may be some variations in some sections, but this will be pretty much right on. The state did not elect to use the residential fire sprinkler section for example. Section 3 has all about planning. Room sizes is in there someplace.... around r305 I think. IMO, converting a shed to a residence is the hard way to do it. IMO, it is very difficult to insulate properly when converting a shed, for just one thing to pick on.

hitanktank Member	# Posted: 5 Dec 2012 06:31pm Reply ask me in a few months when I build with no permit

anonys	# Posted: 15 Dec 2012 02:03pm Reply In bc, the property tax guy always finds u. But he does not report you to builfing dept. Neighbours must report you.

toyota_mdt_tech Member	# Posted: 16 Dec 2012 09:08pm - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech Reply Quoting: Java So how hard is it to get a permit? Permits are all new to us, we have never done anything like this before. Any idea on what the sizing rules are with permits? Java, I pulled my first permit when I did my place. I have never pulled a permit before. Not sure about your area, but in my state, only people who can pull permits is either a licensed builder or the land owner. I did it myself, it was so easy. All in all, the entire process took about 25 minutes, that included my first stop at the planning dept, then off to the building dept to submit my permit. Then I got a call in a week saying my plan was approved. If there is a small adjustment needed on the plans, they would mark it with red pen, ie "tempered glass at this location" with a line drawn to the window. Go to your county website, look into the building permit area. Mine had guidelines. I have to get a mailing address, did it all online (printed form, then mailed it in) and that cost $45. Then I drew a site plan. Basically fitted my 20 acres on a sheet of paper and made drawings of boundary, driveway, well location, road location and proposed cabin site with measurements from each. Anyway, the folks were very nice and pleasant, very helpful, I was intimidated because it was my first time, but now I could pull a permit like an old pro. And eventually, I will. I plan on building a larger full time residence, retire in it. Convert my current cabin to a ham radio shack (yes, I'm an amateur extra class operator) or a guest house. A guideline, if you label any room as a bedroom, bottom of a window cant he higher than 3 feet from the floor. And if course, it has to be "so wide" to climb through too. Do you have plans to submit? I bought mine from townandcountryplans.com and just made changes to the basic payout with white out and submitted it. But you can draw your own too.

TheWildMan Member	# Posted: 17 Dec 2012 11:56am Reply this question seems to come up a lot, i think the general answer is: it depends. it depends on where you are and how strict the regulations are it depends on who your neighbors are and the view of the area it depends on the code office and officers and how much work they have to do and how they view it if your in an area with rich neighbors worried about how you affect area property values, the code office cracks down on everyone, the officer has too much time an interprits the code to exact definitions (read an uptight %%%%) then you can expect them to throw the code book at you, if your in the middle of nowhere, the few locals are all hicks and hill billies with moonshine stills out back and who don't care what you do (as long as you don't snitch on the still), and the code officer has better things to do and doesn't really care as long as your not causing problems, then you can expect to be left alone and no one will bother you about it. but again it all depends on your specific local conditions

Attreadwell Member	# Posted: 25 Jan 2013 08:48pm Reply I agree with the wild mans last paragraph. I'm building a 16x24 cabin on 80 acres of a 200 acre farm. All land locked, I have no 50 ft easement, so electric and water isn't possible. The trail back to the build location is all most impossible to find. The county could do a flyover. Yes they are known for that. But this cabin is built beneath huge white oak trees in Virginia, and is gonna have a green metal roof. Good luck seeing it. Will probably camouflage the green roof with brown and black paint. If they find the cabin, they will find the still. Permits will be the furthest from my mind. Photos to come in the spring. Stay tuned.

evrmc1 Member	# Posted: 25 Jan 2013 09:50pm Reply IN Kentucky if your going to have electric ran you have to have a permit.

Borrego Member	# Posted: 25 Jan 2013 10:21pm Reply Quoting: TheWildMan if your in the middle of nowhere, the few locals are all hicks and hill billies with moonshine stills out back and who don't care what you do (as long as you don't snitch on the still), and the code officer has better things to do and doesn't really care as long as your not causing problems, then you can expect to be left alone and no one will bother you about it. ^ This^ It all depends on where you are and who your neighbors are. Period.

blown32	# Posted: 30 Jan 2013 08:45am Reply hey Java.. im trying to do the same thing in Torrance county.. have u had any luck so far with what route ur going with ?.. iv been going back and forth with the permitting guys in torrance county and now there saying any thing over 120 sf needs permitting..

bldginsp	# Posted: 31 Jan 2013 12:39pm Reply What will they do if you get caught? They will do the same thing they do if you get a permit to begin with- try to get compliance with minimum standards. Only difference is the building code says that you have to pay twice the fees as a fine for doing work without a permit. Permitting a building after it has been built is a pain in the neck because you can't see into the concrete to verify how much rebar there is, and the only way to see in the walls is to rip the interior finish off. No, they won't take your word for it and they won't accept photos. I think the most important question is- do you want this hanging over your head the whole time you own and use the cabin, or do you want to rest easy that 'they' won't show up and start a big problem for you. A problem you could have avoided altogether.

silverwaterlady Member	# Posted: 31 Jan 2013 12:59pm Reply Don't forget all the back property tax you didn't pay on the cabin. Your going to get a big bill. Can you pay it or will you have to sell your cabin?

MtnDon Member	# Posted: 31 Jan 2013 02:42pm Reply Last night this came up in a conversation with an out of state friend. Seems another person out there had a home built way off in the boonies. Somehow, after the building was completed the county caught wind of the project. There were no permits asked for or issued. The owner is tearing out large expanses of finished interior walls so the electrical, plumbing, HVAC duct work, insulation and so on can be verified to be correct. The area around two windows must be cleared down to the sheathing to inspect the flashing. The inspectors picked them at random. If issues are found they could be told to remove all the exterior siding. I heard nothing about the foundation.

bldginsp	# Posted: 5 Feb 2013 03:53pm Reply Hmmm... back property tax on the cabin... I haven't heard of a jurisdiction trying to collect back taxes on illegal construction. Problem there is verifying when it was built, since no records exist. But maybe some county assessors do this, I don't know. I have seen assessors assessing higher taxes on illegal construction for that assessed year, if they know about it. They don't seem to care if it's permitted or not, they just want to tax it if they can prove it exists. Usually the assessor finds out about an improvement to a property when the building department informs them of the permit.

Kudzu Member	# Posted: 7 Feb 2013 07:47pm Reply In my opinion, peace of mind is worth a lot. We built a cabin in Alabama and the only permit needed was from the Health Dept. They had to do a "perk" test to see what type of sewer disposal we needed to use. That test was simple but pricy ($750.00). I thought about skipping the test and just installing the septic tank, but my way smarter than me wife convinced me it was money well spent. In my opinion, it is way smarter jumping thru the hoops than ignoring them.