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optimistic
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# Posted: 10 Mar 2012 01:04pm
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Hi all,
My last post thought me a lot and made me realize that building something from scratch, on my own, at this time of my life will, will be too ambitious of an endeavor.
Another idea I had was to try to find a small single family for sale in PA, which for many of you won't be considered as a nature get-a-away -cabin per se but for someone from NYC like me - it sure will feel like nature. Then just slowly fix it up while getting that 'recreational permit' thing in PA to allow me to avoid the hassles.
I have found a possible place for sale in Pike county. It is a tiny (600sqft) single family with .2 acres that has been foreclosed upon. It is in very rough shape. It had city water and electric. It has a septic system with a holding tank (not sure if that makes sense) but the agent told me that someone punched holes in that tank and because there is a stream in the back of the property - this is a big problem (EPA and so on). She said getting permits for a new septic system and getting everything up to code will not be easy or cheap if possible at all.
If I need to get the place up to code (septic, water, and whatever) it will not be feasible for me. The only option I see here is if :
1. they accept the recreational permit (http://bulk.resource.org/codes.gov/pa_energy.pdf --> page 3)
2. and if by accepting this permit I can then just fix the place up without needing a septic system or EPA permits.
Does anyone here have any experience with the recreational permit in PA and can tell me if this might be possible?
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mrcvs
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# Posted: 10 Mar 2012 04:22pm
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I don't know...but I once looked at a property near to where you are looking, and it had a septic tank made of concrete blocks laid on their sides so that sewage would infiltrate through the openings. And I ran for the hills!
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PA_Bound
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# Posted: 10 Mar 2012 11:19pm
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Check with the local regulating authority for the final word, but it has been my direct experience that the Recreational Cabin Affidavit does not release you from septic requirements. Those are two seperate permits that need to be satisfied indpendently. My cabin is covered by an RCA, but I still needed perc tests and an on-lot septic system designed to get a permit (and all the inspections that go along with those tasks).
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optimistic
Member
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# Posted: 11 Mar 2012 08:41am
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Hi Pa_Bound, I was waiting to see what you say.
Can they require me to fix the old septic system or install a new one?
Who can give a definitive answer on that? the EPA, Lehman township, or Pike county?
I will make phone calls tomorrow but I found this :
http://weblife.org/humanure/appendix3.html#pa
It states that I can use a compost toilet that has an NSF seal (the one I want to buy those have it). I am hoping they will allow me to just disconnect the old broken septic system and just use a compost toilet instead.
What I am not sure about is the greeywater (sinks and shower). In that link I found it states that it can be discharged into a treatment tank but I am not sure what that means.
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PA_Bound
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# Posted: 11 Mar 2012 05:38pm - Edited by: PA_Bound
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Is this property actually in a township, or a city? You indicate the property is served by city water- that's a bit unusual (although not unheard of) for a township.
Assuming it is in Lehman Township, start there, with the zoning department. Find out if the zoning for the property allows recreational properties. If it doesn't (and it may not) then your whole effort may be for naught as you won't be able to use the RCA anyway.
If the zoning works out, then contact the sewage department. Explain the situation, ask what the options are. To answer your questions, yes... they can make you fix the existing system and, again, yes... they can make you install a new system. I'll be honest and say that I expect they will make someone dump a bunch of money into this situation to corect the issue, especially if it's as bad as you indicate. Sewage enforcement often seems to operate under the assumption that everyone is out to beat the rules (honestly, most of the time we are). Consequently they are often not very flexible. And repairing the system will also be the answer your grey water question.
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optimistic
Member
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# Posted: 11 Mar 2012 06:06pm
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I came back from the place about two hours ago. The house itself is actually in better shape than I thought but it has a strange basement area that has a burst water pipe and its completely covered with mold over there. It will need a lot of work to cure it so I took it off the table.
PA_Bound - I told my wife about how you bought a cabin shell and just plunked it where you wanted it on your land and then you started to work on it. She liked the idea a lot.
Few questions for you:
1. can you tell me where you bought your cabin from?
2. do you know if they can deliver it?
3. How do you get the cabin onto the foundation?
4. are you off grid?
5. what is the best way for me to find a small secluded lot? I really want to find a lot that is off the beaten path (in PA)
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PA_Bound
Member
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# Posted: 11 Mar 2012 09:03pm - Edited by: PA_Bound
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1. I bought my cabin from Shawnee Structures, in South-Central PA. While I liked the experience of working with them, given your locality there are probably similar operations more convenient to the areas you are looking at. These are often constructed by amish/mennonite businesses, and sold in numerous places in throughout PA.
2. These cabins are made to be delivered by trailer. Mine, 14'x40', was delivered this way. There can be some distances limitations, so consider my response to question 1.
3. There is no foundation. Mine sits on a gravel pad. They can be put on a foundation, but that requires either a crane or to be built on-site. Either adds $'s to the project.
4. Completely off-grid. Generator, battery and inverter powered. Eventually solar...
5. This should probably be your first question, as where you purchase will impact questions 1-4. I wish I could say I had a crystal ball for finding land. But the reality is that it takes time, patience and diligence. My first recommendation would be to determine how far you are willing to travel to your property. If it is something you are okay using only a few times a year, then you may be willing to travel a long way to get there. If you want to visit frequently, then it better be within a couple hours. Search on this forum and you will read other threads about travel distances. With a max time/distance in mind, determine what areas most likely have remote properties. Living in NYC, you likely understand you will have to travel a peice to find this. You probably will not find much in SE PA, as that population density is high and likely more $'s. The cheaper property (and certainly more remote) is in the northern counties of PA, and the central counties (but those may be a drive from NYC). Once you have an area in mind, look up available properties on realty websites or call a real estate agent. Maybe get a few local newspapers. I found my property on Coldwell-Bankers website, then contacted the agent from there.
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optimistic
Member
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# Posted: 11 Mar 2012 09:16pm
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Thanks for the great info PA_Bound, as usual!
We want to travel a max of 3 hours. I will call some local brokers tomorrow. I have a feeling that a small local office will be able to eventually find me a piece of land I like. I want to use it all year around for about two weekends a month - quite frequent.
I wish to go the off grid path but I haven't begun looking into it yet so I still have a lot of reading to do.
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PA_Bound
Member
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# Posted: 11 Mar 2012 11:10pm
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Good luck, opti... and let us know how it goes.
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