Building regulations, permits - Small Cabin Forum (1)

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Rucan Member	# Posted: 6 Sep 2008 05:09pm Reply Hi, everyone, I'm new to the forum. We've just bought a waterfront land in North-Eastern Ontario. Thinking about building bunkie on the property. Does anyone know, if I want to build something a little bigger than 108 sq ft, let's say 12X20, without any water supply. Any way I don't have water line, septic, hydro. I this case to get a building permit, will municipality make me to apply for a septic system? Do I need also to do a full survey of the property? Does anyone knows limits for docks and decks (ground level). I will appreciate any information.

CabinBuilder Admin	# Posted: 8 Sep 2008 10:08am Reply Here is my experience with this permit business: In Ontario it is a local municipality that sets the building permit requirements, so someone else's experience maybe different to yours and in fact may mislead you. In addition, there maybe additional restrictions if your property is located along some sort of environmentally protected water shore, etc. So you will have to talk directly to your local municipal permit office. I couldn't get a strait answer for similar details from my local permit officer (central Ontario), other than if you're building anything > 10 sq.M ~100sq.ft you need to apply for the building permit, and in that case the minimum (!) size of 800 sq/ft (or some other close figure). In other words, I couldn't build anything between ~100 and 800 sq.ft, with or without a building permit. My repeated requests to clarity this gap were not answered. In the end it worked for me anyway ~ 8x12 ft was all I really wanted to build at that time. I hope you will get a clearer answer from your local municipal permit office. Share your experiences.

Rucan Member	# Posted: 8 Sep 2008 03:23pm Reply Thank you, CabinBuilder! I tried to squeeze some info from of municipality. But as you said, they did not give me straight answer. They want me to come up with drawings, and before that they want me to get permit for septic or chemical system, saying that outhouse is not permitted on the property. So, I guess, I have to stick with non-permit option.

Anonymous	# Posted: 11 Sep 2008 10:48am Reply this is my experience in northern michigan. I called the township my property is in and asked if it is permited to build a storage shed on the property that I have been camping on. I already knew camping was permitted. I was told that yes I could build a "storage shed" from 149 sq ft or less without a permit.I could build larger but would then need a permit. My plan is to build a simple little cabin,maybe10x14, on skids or cement blocks. One could then use a sawdust toilet(see the humanure handbook by josesph jenkins).Of course I am not close to any lakes or streams. When I called the county I got a whole different set of very terse answers to my questions, in other words it was out of the question. I don't know if this is helpful to those in Ontario.

hotwls13	# Posted: 10 Oct 2008 01:38pm Reply What about building multiple 100SF cabins? I haven't looked locally (California) as I am still looking for a piece of property. But after reading through your cabin build (very good source of info by the way), I started thinking why not build multiple structures in close proximity. This way you could have the use of say 2-4 cabins (or sheds). I don't NEED tons of room, but this way the kids could have a cabin and me and my wife have a cabin. I was thinking VERY CLOSE proximity of maybe 3-4 feet with some sort of decking (if needed) connecting them. Just seems like an easy way to build a larger structure while avoiding the permit issue. Of course your building costs would be more than building one larger structure, but you could build at your own pace, one at a time.

BarrysBay	# Posted: 12 Oct 2008 03:16pm Reply Regarding hotwls13's post about multiple 100SF cabins, I know that where my lot is (Southern Ontario), only one accessory building is permitted per lot without a permit, so any more I build have to accompany a permit and probably a main dwelling as well. But I'm thinking about building a second shed in the future on my own, hidden in the bush and held together with screws. This way I can just unscrew the shed apart in pieces if anyone ever complains and take the shed back to the city.

MDP2004 Member	# Posted: 19 Oct 2008 08:35pm Reply I would assume that you have an engineered plan or good designed plan that comply by Building Code, and the plan doesn't include water access (kitchen/restroom) then you are not required to put down a septic tank. It was to my understanding that the Building Inspector doesn't handle septic tank and that it is referred to Environmental Health whom handles septic tank. Please do post follow up on your experience with Ontario and I am sure it will be handy for newcomers one day.

Rockwood Member	# Posted: 14 Nov 2008 04:45pm Reply CabinBuilder, Thanks for the cool resource. Do things such as decks, roof overhangs, lofts etc. count as part of the sq. footage? I am thinking about building with logs. They are significantly deeper than 2x's. Is the area calculated outside or inside the structure? Thanks in advance.

CabinBuilder Admin	# Posted: 16 Nov 2008 02:41pm - Edited by: CabinBuilder Reply I don't what to give your the wrong answer - it may be different in your municipality. Good luck with your cabin project.

MDP2004 Member	# Posted: 27 Nov 2008 07:31pm Reply Rockwood, From my experience, Add-on doesn't require any permit but as CabinBuilder said, it is better to check with your local county office. Each municipality has a different opinion about certain things.

ptoddf Member	# Posted: 8 Jun 2009 11:59am Reply The best way around the permit problem, at least in California, is to buy an old cabin that can be fixed up. If it's not new construction, it's grandfathered in. That's what I did. It's hard to find old structures that are not worthless shacks, but even that might work. Others have incorporated a "worthless shack" into a fully compliant larger structure and say the permits for an "improvement" are cheaper/easier to get than totally new construction. As far as 2 10' square cabins side by side with connection to make one larger cabin, I've seen that done. So far, no problem. But the building inspectors are very hungry with tax revenues way down, so I wouldn't want to have that hanging over me. Best, Todd F.

hotwls13 Member	# Posted: 12 Jul 2009 10:13pm Reply Thanks for the input Todd. Still on the lookout for a piece of land. I'm currently anticipating building a small 100sf Shed/Shop in my back yard. This will be my reloading room. woohoo!! Here in Bakersfield, it's just TOO HOT in the garage to do ANYTHING. So, I'm thinking of building a shed/shop and put in a window AC. The shed won't be hard-wired so I should be able to get away with it being "just a shed". ;) I figure this will be good practice for when I do get a piece of land to build my small cabin on. Have you guys used or thought of using wood pallets/skids for your floor?? I have access to lots of them at work so they would be FREE. ;)

Mike Lewthwaite	# Posted: 21 Aug 2009 08:09pm Reply Me and a few other families would like to purchase some land (10-20 acres) and build 4-10 cabins on it and live there in community year round. Theres much issues with zoning. Do you have any suggestions to how we may do this? The only thing we can think of for now is creating a private campground with annual lease for our members. But even then I think there may be some laws that make it impossible for people to live there 365 days a year. Do you know anything about this? Any help you can give would be greatly appreciated. Mike Lewthwaite

charlie1	# Posted: 7 Oct 2009 11:50pm Reply i was woundering on the hight you are able to go on a 10 x 10 cabin, in southern california? can i build a two story?

glenn Member	# Posted: 18 Nov 2009 05:22pm Reply My understanding is that the no permit structure is single story and detached. The interesting part is the detached, with the implication that there must be an existing residence. I've had the same experience as one of the other members in contacting the local building division. When I asked about building a cabin, they told me they didn't know what that was! This leaves me with some of the same questions I see posted here. Can you build a no permit (i.e. less than 120 sq ft) cabin without a permit. I think the website is doing a disservice in asserting that you can, without noting the exection that this, in most instances, must be a detached structure.

elkdiebymybow Member	# Posted: 11 Jan 2010 08:03pm Reply EVERY TOWN, city or state has its own codes. If the town doesn't have any requirements, usually state codes apply. Call your planning and zoning depatment and ask a few simple questions but don't give out too much information as my experience has been they may pull you into the system to rack up building permits, fees, etc... I've had many local projects that have required building permits. The cost of the permit varries and may be tied to the value of the project. Some municipalities require more comprehensive on-site inspections than others. Some require more detailed site plans and engineering than others. When I built my structure, they asked for a scaled drawing of the site, showing location relative to property lines to evaluate minimum set backs. In my case, I had no power, no water and built with trees harvested from my own property. The building department called it a "pole barn" and I had to get a permit at the exceedingly expensive cost of $5.00 The assessors office swings by once a year to see if I have made any significant site improvements. Last year I talked with them and told them I didn't do any work on the cabin all year so they left the assessment the same as the previous year- 60% complete or something like that. In this case, the folks at the building department and assessors office have been very reasonable. I have had other projects in other municipalities that make building anything such a laborous process just for the permits that it becomes frustrating just to get the project permitted. Bottom line- each municipality is different so do your home work before proceeding with anything. ASK questions, they work for you and that is what they are there for, to help walk you through the process. Good luck and happy building!

toyota_mdt_tech Member	# Posted: 7 Aug 2010 08:28pm Reply Quoting: Rucan Hi, everyone, I'm new to the forum. We've just bought a waterfront land in North-Eastern Ontario. Thinking about building bunkie on the property. Does anyone know, if I want to build something a little bigger than 108 sq ft, let's say 12X20, without any water supply. Any way I don't have water line, septic, hydro. I this case to get a building permit, will municipality make me to apply for a septic system? Do I need also to do a full survey of the property? If its a cabin and not storage, they will probably not give you a permit unless you have a privvy permit first. Usually a privvy must be fly tight, have a vent stack. And you dont need to have it completed to be issued the building permit. If you have a well on the property, then they probably would require a full septic. If you plan on a septic, keep in mind, they like to see 100 feet from the well on the septic. So keep that in mind when doing your site plan.

Viking Member	# Posted: 9 Aug 2010 11:34am - Edited by: Viking Reply Hello, I just also bought a piece of land on the Trent River in Ontario. Was at the right place at the right time and got an unbelievable deal on it. It's not a waterfront, but I have deeded access to the water basically across the street from the lot. For now I have cut down some trees and bushes and set up a clearing inside the forest for camping. I am really not in the financial position right now to build a cottage, so I am thinking of building a small cabin (max 108 sq. ft.), which is allowed by the municipality without a building permit. I am thinking of a 9 x 12 cabin with a bunk bed on on one side, a small kitchenette on the other, and maybe a small table in the middle as an eating area. I would also build a porch with the roof extending over it as a cover (put some Muskoka chairs on each side for evening enjoyment). I am also thinking of building a floating dock at the water access lot. Just wondering if there is anyone here who has experience with this type of project on the Trent - Severn waterway? Cheers, Viking

toyota_mdt_tech Member	# Posted: 16 Oct 2010 05:04pm Reply Quoting: Viking I am also thinking of building a floating dock at the water access lot. Just wondering if there is anyone here who has experience with this type of project on the Trent - Severn waterway? I grew up on a lake and the level changes, so we were only allowed floaters. We had a large anchor pad made from concrete, it had 2 large pieces of galvanized angle iron drove deep into the ground about midway in the pad. And as wide apart as you want the dock. Pad goes wider. Then the first section of dock was the ramp. It was bolted to the pad with one large galvanized bolt on each side to work like a hinge. Then this section woudl like to the final dock section. The link section didnt have styrofoam. Just the final section. All treated lumber framed around large styrofoam blocks. As for decking, something like Trex so no slivers or rot. Built it like a deck. We used old firehose around the edge for the boat protection. The 9X12 cabin would work nice. Can you do a 10X12 instead? Much easier dimension to work with. Or does this put you over for permit? Most areas allow 10X12, ie 120 sq feet of floor.

Anonymous	# Posted: 16 Oct 2010 10:32pm Reply Thanks for the advice. I actually ended up building a portable dock made out of metal tubing and connector joints. Worked out real good, the dock is in many peoples opinion one of the nicest in the area :) As for the cabin, yes, the limit is 108sqft. unfortunately. So a 9X12 will be the best that I can do. I will be starting construction on it in the spring after the snow has melted. I have my plans already to go and will post them here at some point. Cheers. Viking

toyota_mdt_tech Member	# Posted: 17 Oct 2010 02:13pm Reply Quoting: Anonymous As for the cabin, yes, the limit is 108sqft. unfortunately. So a 9X12 will be the best that I can do Well, 9 feet works out good for siding. They make 9 foot long siding for walls that have a rim joist so it can cover the full 8 foot wall and then the rim joist to lay about an inch or 2 over the concrete footing. So taking a 9 foot siding, running it lengthwise "horizontally" (T1-11) it comes out perfect. Go 2 rows high for 8 foot walls. On your 12 foot long walls, run the siding vertical. Just some ideas. When you start, make sure you keep up posted with pix in "members projects" :D

farfromhome Member	# Posted: 17 Oct 2010 04:06pm Reply A note from another Ontario resident. Your building code requirements may vary by county or region. The zoning designations however will be consistent. If you are interested in land with more flexibility then look for RU2 or RU3 zoning. Land that is zoned residential and ru1 will have the most restrictions. On my land My zoning is quite flexible. I am allowed multiple farm implement buildings, migrant worker cabins. I am still only zoned for one house, but we have converted a tool shed into a bunkie. This is temporary until we build the main house a few years from now. Another way to build a dock is to ask planning permission to build a bird viewing platform. Look at the details of your local zoning and you will be surprised. Most of it is on the Internet.

toyota_mdt_tech Member	# Posted: 18 Oct 2010 09:25am Reply Quoting: farfromhome Another way to build a dock is to ask planning permission to build a bird viewing platform. Look at the details of your local zoning and you will be surprised. Most of it is on the Internet. Great info. Dont tell them its to moor a boat with an evil internal combustion engine. They suck up that green stuff. ;D

Borrego Member	# Posted: 18 Oct 2010 08:36pm Reply Quoting: charlie1 i was woundering on the hight you are able to go on a 10 x 10 cabin, in southern california? can i build a two story? I was told in my county you can go 2 story on a 'storage shed' as long as the footprint stays 120 sq ft. That opens up a lot of options.

toyota_mdt_tech Member	# Posted: 19 Oct 2010 09:11am Reply I'll say it does. :D Might ask if there is a total height limit. In my area, 20 feet is max. (can go more, but a variance is required) No problem on a 2 story unless you want a super steep pitched roof. Good news Borrego. I dont think they give us that option here. I might add, if you go full 8 foot walls upstairs, they will tax you on the extra square footage. But if you have shorter walls, steep pitched roof, the taxes will be bases on the area where you stand up without hitting your head. So in other words, the center near the roof area. It may differ for you. They counted my porch for my overall sq footage/taxing.

tjsartorelli Member	# Posted: 11 Mar 2012 09:03pm Reply I have a old cabin in rough shape,but want to build another one using part of the old foundation. I also want to go a little wider,it is about 24x24 would like to be 24x32. There is no water or power there, just the old out house.What would be the cheapest way permit wise to do this? I am from upper MI.

MtnDon Member	# Posted: 11 Mar 2012 10:02pm Reply The cheapest way to do what you want within the permit system? First you have to know what the permit system there will require of you. It's possible the old foundation would not meet current requirements. Ya' gotta know the local rules first; they change from place to place.

toyota_mdt_tech Member	# Posted: 12 Mar 2012 11:16pm Reply Quoting: tjsartorelli I have a old cabin in rough shape,but want to build another one using part of the old foundation. I also want to go a little wider,it is about 24x24 would like to be 24x32. There is no water or power there, just the old out house.What would be the cheapest way permit wise to do this? I am from upper MI. That is a remodel/improvement. Much easier to get then a new construction. You may not use much or any of the original structure, ie may have to do a new foundation etc. But you will pass through lots of loopholes by doing the remodel/improvement deal. My county was real good to me. It took me a total of about 20 minutes at the planning dept (1st stop) then the actual building dept. Total cost was $45 for my address (did that via the internet), $90 for planning dept (site plan), then $415 for building dept. This includes fees to inspect my plans (make sure it meets code) and for the permit itself. Was good for a 18 months, if I needed more time another 18 month extension would be granted at no extra cost. I had it done in 6 months time.

westernrider4 Member	# Posted: 16 Jul 2012 07:14pm Reply Fantastic !!!! I am a single mom with three .....almost out of the house. So sick of working my butt off to pay everyone but me. Anyways I'm going to sell my hobby farm (which is just too darn big for just me) and simplify my life. I want a small log cabin for year round living but at least 16x20. Unfortunately here in Ontario, there are regulations for cabins and living off the grid that make this seem so difficult! I am amazed at how many people think the way I do! This forum has answered about 1/2 of my questions!! But I have another, is there special refrigerators that would or could operate off solar panels or would I be able to use the one I have now? Would be incredibly grateful for any input and ideas.....what a great site!!

MtnDon Member	# Posted: 16 Jul 2012 07:47pm Reply look up Sundanzer and Steca. They have the highest electric efficiency. Drawback is they are a chest type. Sundanzer now has one that can hold the cold for up to 5 days with no power. No batteries required, just a solar panel. Others, especially vertical with front opening doors will use more power. A regular, typical home refrigerator can be used but will need even more power. If going electric, IMO, be certain you size the power system to have sufficient reserve to enable you to be absent and not have to worry about the weather being cloudy for several days in a row. Some use generators, but they cost big$ to operate, IMO. Plus unless the generator will start up itself when needed, they are of limited use. IMO.

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