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Nobadays
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# Posted: 27 Jun 2021 09:41pm
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So our HOA has reinforced its assertion that there is to be no open burning, any time of the year. The claim is that piles burned during the winter will leave underground roots burning and this will erupt in the summer.
I do not dispute that this can and does occur but, my research thus far has turned up cases almost exclusively in old growth forests with thick duff and buried logs and roots of old stumps.
Our area is primarily an Aspen forest with a mixture of spruce, fir and few pines. A lot of the area had burned some 100 years ago hence the mainly Aspen regrowth. There are pockets throughout the area where conifers are thicker but overall the area is 85% Aspen forest. Add to this the soils are shallow and there is not a deep duff, in fact little duff at all. There are very few old stumps either from the old burn or early logging. What we do have is many, many 1 acre lots that are seldom or never visited by the owners meaning little to no fire mitigation work has been done. These, and many visited lots are thick with down Aspen limbs/trees, often large areas of juniper brush, and my pet peeve, conifer limbs on almost every tree racking the ground.
My feeling is by not allowing winter slash burning they are tieing the hands of those who will make the effort to do the fire mitigation work. In the past owners were encouraged to make small piles then the caretaker would go around in the winter and burn them. I feel this is a sound plan.
Am I all wet here? Is there documentation supporting underground burning in this kind of forest? Or, is there documentation to dispel this idea.
Any information you can share, especially documents that help me understand how I am wrong, or how I am right so this can be shared with the board would be appreciated!
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Brettny
Member
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# Posted: 28 Jun 2021 06:42am
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I am by no means a fire expert but the fact that theres no trimming of conifers understory being done means theres a huge build up of tinder.
To be totally honest through if the owners of these lots seldom come just allowing them to burn isnt going to do much as they didnt come to begin with.
Do they allow cooking or camp fires?
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Nobadays
Member
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# Posted: 28 Jun 2021 08:46am
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Quoting: Brettny no trimming of conifers understory being done means theres a huge build up of tinder.
It would seem this would be the case but there is actually very little depth of duff even around the conifers. Spruce only shed needles every 2-3 years with might help explain this.
Quoting: Brettny To be totally honest through if the owners of these lots seldom come just allowing them to burn isnt going to do much as they didnt come to begin with. Do they allow cooking or camp fires?
You are absolutely correct. The HOA is going to bring in a large wood chipper this year.... same thing, only those who come here - AND CARE - will benefit from this. There is a little talk of requiring fire mitigation to be done by everyone, even if they are absentee owners.
Yes we can have fires but they must be covered with a screen with no larger than 1/8" holes. But, there is no enforcement, and actually there are no "teeth" in the covenants other than state/county laws governing burning, etc. Supposedly they have an agreement with the county sheriff's department to enforce the covenants. That said, I used to do land use planning for communities and know for a fact that the county law enforcement can only enforce county and state laws, not HOA covenants. A good bluff but it is just that.
I have burned slash in the past ( I now have a 6" chipper) in the winter and every time I called the county sheriff department to ask if it was ok, always told to go ahead.
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 28 Jun 2021 08:50am
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Sounds like someone with an objection to the smoke, either the smell or even some health issue like copd, has made a 'case' with the canard of the subterranean fires.
1st the potential of the fires needs to be dispelled
2nd the advantages of clearing the trash out needs to be made
I would think there may be some 'papers' on such with various agencies, like the Forest Ser, Dep of Ag, Park Ser, etc.
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paulz
Member
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# Posted: 28 Jun 2021 09:58am
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Quoting: Nobadays You are absolutely correct. The HOA is going to bring in a large wood chipper this year.... same thing, only those who come here - AND CARE - will benefit from this. There is a little talk of requiring fire mitigation to be done by everyone, even if they are absentee owners.
If the ones who care can use the wood chipper they bring around (that's how they do it here), and the ones that don't leave their lots alone either way, what's the difference if it's burned or chipped?
Sorry, guess I'm not understanding.
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Nobadays
Member
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# Posted: 29 Jun 2021 03:52pm
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Paul... the chipper will only be here a week or so. Not everyone who would like to use it can be here at that time. But everyone when they come can pile up some slash to be burned at a later time. There are a couple of people on the board who are deathly afraid of fire... I don't know their reasons. If you could see the amount of dead and down limbs/trees that litter this area you would be appalled. This is not to mention nearly every conifer has limbs touching the ground. It would take literally months with a crew in here to clean things up to a point it could be called a firewise community. To disallow winter burning by those who want to clean up, while at the same time doing nothing to encourage/require (and I hate extra laws) the absentee owners to clean up their properties seems like the cart before the horse. Controlled burning of small slash piles in the winter could go a long way towards keeping us all from burning out in the event of a wildfire.
To put this in perspective, two years ago the State and Federal Forest Services did a review of all the mountain communities here in Southern Colorado to assess their potential for loss in a wildfire situation. Jasper, our community which is quite spread out over a south facing hillside has around 85- 90 cabins. Their conclusion was only 13 structures would possibly survive a wildfire. We, and others took that as a wake up call and went to work clearing our properties. Unfortunately there are many properties around those of us who did get at it, that our work is like in vain because the fire will have enough fuel surrounding us to carry it across our places. My wife and I actually cleaned up a good portion of the property below us in hopes of slowing fire down. Here is a picture of the empty property to the west of us... they hardly ever even vist let alone do any work on the place.
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Nobadays
Member
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# Posted: 29 Jun 2021 04:01pm
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BTW, I bought a 6" chipper last fall so I probably won't need burn anything on our property, and I have already loaned it out for use by three other property owners. It's only personal in that I want to see this community cleaned up so if there is a fire we don't lose our cabin.
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 29 Jun 2021 04:08pm
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Well, a fear of or respect for wilfires is fine. But they are being foolish to leave the ground clutter you mention.
Sounds like your HOA needs some change of board members. When's the next election / general meeting?
Do the rules allow for special assesments? Something that could cover costs for a work crew?
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frankpaige
Member
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# Posted: 29 Jun 2021 05:35pm
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🤔🤔Thinking Nobadays might talk himself into HOA committee position? Just sayin.
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paulz
Member
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# Posted: 29 Jun 2021 07:04pm - Edited by: paulz
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OK I get it, especially now..
The county comes by my gate with the chipper twice a year, coming July 26. In light of recent fires, the drought and heat waves, I've started clearing all the low lying fuel (90% bay with a bit of oak) from my shop up to the cabin, a monumental task on a steep hillside. I took two truckloads out to the gate, which took care of the 4x4x10' pile they allow you. So today I got my chipper out and mulched everything else I've taken down so far. Feeding the chipper was almost enjoyable relaxation after cutting and hauling down from the hillside.
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Nobadays
Member
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# Posted: 29 Jun 2021 07:22pm
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Quoting: ICC Sounds like your HOA needs some change of board members. When's the next election / general meeting?
Quoting: frankpaige Thinking Nobadays might talk himself into HOA committee position? Just sayin.
Next meeting is 8:00am Saturday but no.... I just don't want to be on the board right now. Actually was invited today by the president of the board to fill one of the vacant positions. Maybe in a year or two. I was a Public Works Director for 16 years then Mayor of the community for 4 more.... done my public service. Besides, I would not be a very good "board member" as I have little tolerance for inactive boards/councils or committees. This one doesn't get much done, which in some ways... for living under an HOA is a good thing, in other ways not so much. My wife and I talked about it today and she knows me well enough to know that I'm either all in.... usually leading... or not in at all. That said we have written letters to the board with our thoughts and concerns, and will be at the meeting on Saturday for sure. They did listen to my suggestion to bring in a professional forester to address the annual residents gathering to be held at noon on Saturday.
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 29 Jun 2021 08:04pm
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Understood. Completely.
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frankpaige
Member
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# Posted: 29 Jun 2021 10:17pm
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Nobadays, understood completely. I try not to say too much, you never know who is reading. Our HOA and county are pretty tolerant. If you don't create a trash dump, fire off too many rounds ( I don't on the property at all), make yourself a nuisance. You are left in peace. I am lucky in that our place is half Aspen, half open with a good number of tall evergreens. Some folk have pretty dense Aspen groves. Our Fire department issues burn permits and not many owners use them. The HOA community north of us is more, let's say, hands on. Rules, rules, rules. Did not come here for rules.
Nobadays, TY for your service. I try to keep the angst out of cabin life and have neighbors that feel the same. I lucked out. My big worry is.... what is the best way to get that shade structure up and not have the wife give me grief. That and the cigar butts in the HD bucket when she comes up.
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Nobadays
Member
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# Posted: 30 Jun 2021 08:52am
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Thanks guys.... I'll be interested to see what the forester has to say at the annual meeting. I just might be all wrong and even winter burning here is too dangerous. But I am skeptical...
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 30 Jun 2021 02:58pm
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In my part of the west, we have always burned slash in winter. And yes, there were times that after the piles were cold on top we did find wisps of smoke from some underground roots. In winter finding those was easy. I never found any hot spots months later. That does not mean it cannot happen.
Our family has been on these acres for generations. I was taught to be selective where a burn pile was stacked. Look for old stumps and don't build a fire on one. I was taught to always check back on the burn piles later. I still do. Nowadays an IR thermometer is part of the tool bag.
It can also help if there are designated spots for the slash to be left and burnt. We have a few open spots that are mounded a little from years of burning in the same place.
The forest service in our neck of the woods burns every winter IF there is sufficient snow cover. Some winters we just don't get enough. We check with the county fire marshall beforehand and seek permission. The fire marshall issues a permit by text message which is very cool and saves all the paperwork that used to be the only way to get official permission.
As a side note, I get really bothered by the landowners who will not even trim back the dead lower branches that occur on trees like firs or pickup the dead stuff on the ground in areas close to buildings.
Chippers can be really handy too. I bought a PTO mount chipper about ten years ago when a logger nearby was closing up. I have been using it more than burning these past few years.
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 30 Jun 2021 08:09pm
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Note on chippers:
Get a bigger one than what you think you can get by with.
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