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Kelly
Member
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# Posted: 28 Apr 2011 03:19pm
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sorry its a bit long but I`m frustrated, here goes.....Hi all, I just came accross your wesite as I was looking for some metal signs (hard to find around here). I was wondering if anyone can give me some wise advise on my situation... heres the deal, my husband and I purchased over 50 acres a year ago of field woods and streams rolling acres lots of wildlife,deer turkey beavers mink etc. We are looking to build a cabin there next year. Its only 5 mins away from where we live but, there aren`t houses real close by which is nice but anytime we go to have some family time walk or fish or just explore our property we never seem to be alone. We have many unwanted visitors showing up. I`m a generally quite nice person but this last weekend my blood began to boil. 9 times out of 10 a 4 wlr shows up or a snowmobiler ect. I would speak to them but trust me they act like were not even there!! they don`t even slow down to chat or introduce themselves to whom they are! I`ve had grown men on atvs and dirt bikes show up almost running over my out in the clear open 5 yr old son and my 10 yr old and his friend right infront of me! they just go up the drive over our culvert and up to the top back of my property to enjoy the trails! Last summer my boys and I had a day to go for a nature hike and when we got out of the truck we heard at least 8 mens voices yipping and had their atvs stuck somewhere in our bush they were loud and drunk ( they would have put truckers to shame with the swearing) not for little ears, and it was only 11:00, I felt too uncomfortable to stay so I had to leave my own property! I had no idea when we bought it it was apparently the townships birthright to trespass! I had one guy tell me that thats his bridge at the back that he built!! Yes I know A stick of dynamite like cartoons comes to mind but, we want to keep it as my husbands friend owns 200 acres ajoined to ours and it would be nice and safer to not go down the road when we visit him. He isn`t the problem. we bought it for quiet relaxing time for our kids and ourselves, we find shotgun casings in the field, thats comforting eh! I went for a walk by myself and was wearing all brown one day let me tell you it was a brisk walk once I realized it wasn`t the best thing in the fall to do. This weekend we had a 4wlr lady that showed up with a little kid and a dog for an hr while we fished. when she finally came near it turns out she`s not even from here shes just visiting family in the area and we all enjoy these trails! She has no idea who owns the lands! she spent an hr at the neighbours property oh yes did i mention he`s working with ducks unlimited, so i`m sure that all the noise and dog was great for all the woodducks he`s trying to help. I give up the nice person is fading away to momma bear now. I just don`t want to be sitting on my deck next yr and have strangers come out running over my kids as they hike or something. Its not just that, Ive seen 3 people go up the steep clay hill and almost flip their atvs including the lady with kid. Thats all I need is to get sued!! Its a big problem, my husbands the type of nice guy, we don`t own a gun Im in ont. its not that I don`t like 4wling etc, My son has a small one, not that he can go on our own trails as the larger tire tracks have made it impossible to use as his will belly out. how can I make the hubby realize that its not ok to let others use our land because they always have before. I`m ready to put up a for sale sign on it if its just going to offend the neighbours that their friends and friends friends buddies don`t get to use it anymore. There is no current signs they are gone I was fully intending against my husbands wishes to post lots in about 7 spots on the property. first I need a sold sign as it was a private sale, second a private property, no tressp, and no hunting. is that going out of control. has anyone else had to step on some toes before.
please any advise would be great thanks
kelly
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smitty
Member
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# Posted: 28 Apr 2011 03:38pm
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If it were mine..
I would go to the home improvement store, and buy some of that orange plastic snow fence. I would then find the trails they use to enter your property, there is probably a couple of spots they use, I would stretch that fence across the trail, and hook a HUGE no trespassing private property sign right in the middle of it.
I would do that for every trail, path, they could use to enter the property.
The orange snow fence, is fairly cheap. Very visible, you don't want to use wire cause they might run into it while going 45mph and that wouldn't be pretty.. But they would see a big ugly orange fence in the path.
Also might want to put up no hunting signs, around the property line. For 50 acres. Buy a lot of them.
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Kelly
Member
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# Posted: 28 Apr 2011 03:48pm
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thanks smitty i think thats great, i was thinking of having a chain just accross the bridge with a sign in the middle but I really think that someone will have lots of privacy to cut it.
The only spot I can`t see doing this is the drive up to the hill where most go only because we rent it out to farm the field uptop for the tractor to go up and down. But I definatly think it might get them talking to each other that their not welcome in big orange hints!!
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Erins#1Mom
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# Posted: 28 Apr 2011 06:08pm
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Kelly,
Don't use a chain. As a former ER nurse, I have seen what that can do. It's not pretty and depending the height of the chain, speed of the ATV, deadly.....
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 28 Apr 2011 10:11pm
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You have two choices as I see it; capitulate or stick up for your rights. Sticking up for your rights will mean fencing the entire acreage, posting no trespassing signs and having gates on any access points. And repairing fences a few times too. Be sure of the boundaries; you do have an up-to-date survey? Some states have specific requirements for the no trespassing signs, specific wording that must appear and so on. In nm a state legal sign has to have a contact name and number on each sign. There will likely be a requirement that signs be spaced a certain minimum distance apart. Talk to the Sheriff, see how cooperative they will be to help when you call in a report. Just because some other locals have "always" used the land for whatever does not translate into anyone else having any rights of access for property that you own.
In cases like this you having a gun is not necessary and even a detriment if you personally are not comfortable with them. Ont. laws regarding them are a lot different than in my area (NM, USA) so you can't really do much with them for even personal defense if I understand correctly. On the other hand I have found I get a great deal of respect from wearing a revolver with a long barrel (legal to do anywhere in NM with a few exceptions).
If you come across folks running rampant over your land and they do their best to ignore you take pictures of them, record plate numbers, etc. I may take a while to convince the majority of the trespassers that you are serious about your property rights. We also have some game cameras hidden and camouflaged. So does a friend of mine. A group of photos of trespassers (nice and clear, easy to ID the people and complete with plate numbers) were taken to the Sheriff. A couple of the trespassers did end up in county court, were fined and they have not been any trouble since.
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 28 Apr 2011 11:11pm
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go to the opp and ask their advice . there are very good laws about trusspass in ont . they will help you, if they don't ,go to your mpp. do not even think about a thret of any kind in ont. or you will be the one in trouble!!!!!!
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toyota_mdt_tech
Member
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2011 12:02am
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Is there any way they can access these trails they ride by a single path or maybe a path around your property? Are the trails on your place, or do they just cross your place to get to the trails. I ask because you could make an agreement with them. First, if they want to access their trail system, and they must go through your property, you could ask that they drive slow, quietly and stay on that path. And tell them if they do not do that, that you will get law enforcement involved and will have to fence the entire area off. And you can tell a rider he must warn any other riders. They need to self police themselves and watch for abusers and if its abused, it gets shut down. No other activities on your place, ie shooting, partying, spent cases left behind. This way, you can have a friendly relationship instead of the other way where they may be inclined to vandalize while you are away, but now will keep an eye on it, or lose their access. And have it enforced by the law.
Just one option. And they may think "hey, these folks are really cool, so ride easily, little to no noise or we lose the access privledge.
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smitty
Member
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2011 02:54am
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Quoting: Erins#1Mom Don't use a chain. As a former ER nurse, I have seen what that can do. It's not pretty and depending the height of the chain, speed of the ATV, deadly.....
I have a scar from my wrist to my elbow.. proof that you may not see the wire, ging 45mph on a dirt bike. Dad stretched the barbed wire across the driveway to let the cows out one day. I didn't see it. Ran right into it, and got tangled up in it like a pro wrestler in the ropes..
Lucky I kept my head attached.
use the plastic orange snow fence.
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TomChum
Member
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2011 01:23pm - Edited by: TomChum
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Hello Kelly,
I'm sorry that you have to endure this, but here are some thoughts. I hope they don't offend, just trying to offer a birds-eye view. I am thankful that I don't have your problem.
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I'm curious when did you purchase the property? And knowing the 200ac neighbor, I'm assuming you were aware of this usage before you bought it? Right now you're clearly frustrated, and I fully understand, but I think you should step back and give it some time. Now comes the challenge that I suspect you knew was coming.
This problem can't be turned around in a day, dealing harshly with one part will create another problem. I'm with TMTech, treat the people with respect, give them time to change their ways on their own, give yourself some time too. If you start to actually talk to them you will learn where they are trying to get to and why, this will yield ideas. Don't talk to drunks, try to find the community leader. Talk to reasonable people, and be reasonable yourself.
People explore, if there is a trail someone will follow it. They like the woods too, just like you do. You will ultimately have to block those trails and get the ground-cover to grow back in. This will take time and persistence. If you want to keep using the trails yourself your problem will be more difficult to solve. You have at least a chance of winning because you live 5 mi away.
I'll bet that it has become a pass-thru specifically because of the bridge. Why would someone go to that much trouble to build it there? This is your ace-in-the hole. The fact that someone built a bridge at their own expense suggests that there is no other way, and all you have to do is eliminate the bridge. This is a choke-point and everyone passes thru here. Put a sign on the bridge stating that the property has new owners, and that this bridge will be gated on date xx/xx for liability reasons. I think you should be polite. Then follow through.
The bridge is an asset that you want to use. Accept that you value this structure AND that it was provided for free by some local guy. Contact him and tell him that you like it, but that you own it as it was part of the property that you purchased. But you cannot accept the liability of other people using it. And don't forget to add that he did a great job.
This person may be respected in the community of local "users". He puts out WORK to create stuff for the community! If you gain the respect of a community leader it will spread farther than any other thing you can do. It won't help with out-of-towners, but there's not much you can do about that except with signs and your gate.
Here is a deal that maybe you can pull off (?) which might enlist his help as a community leader. Tell him you will gate it in 30 days, then at the end of October, decide whether it's still a "liability" that has to be "demolished". Because if you have to demolish the bridge it will cost you instead (let him conclude that he doesn't get paid). You feel compelled to pay him some money for his work if the bridge works out for your personal use, but you won't know that it's working for you or against you, until the end of the season. If you can pull this off, then his skin in the game might prevent your gate from getting busted up over the summer. Keep it simple, polite, and of course always follow thru with your word. Of course you won't know for about 2 or 3 seasons, but that is just too long for the bridge builder to wait. You need to set the goal in the forseeable future if you want his buy-in.
Anyway, remember that you're dealing with your new neighbors who HONESTLY think they have a right to cross your land. They are wrong, of course but accept that they need and deserve some time to realize this. You need to start the process to notify them then give them some time to accept it. If people have been using that pass-tru for years and years, it may take 2 or 3 years to get all the out-of-towners educated too.
Some people have to spend years enhancing their retreat, removing brush, and poison oak, etc. You have to remove "local usage". This is a project, like any other project to enhance your land. Your ability to relax at your retreat, will be influenced a bit by your actions.
Or maybe consider to put signs now, and gate the bridge next season depending on how well the users respect your property. I'd definitely want to get in touch with that bridge builder soon I think he's your 'bridge' to the locals.
All of us with rural property (that we can't watch) feel for you and wish you the best.
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2011 06:51pm
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Tom Chum,
Wonderful post. Excellent rationale. You are a good person.
bob
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2011 07:40pm
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Quoting: TomChum I'd definitely want to get in touch with that bridge builder soon I think he's your 'bridge' to the locals.
Tom
It's apparent you are a thinking man.
I've read your post more than a few times in succession now, due the weighty content in each paragraph, and must say I totally agree with every word.
And I thank you for the effort.
Keep a fire
It glows for more than thee
Gary O'
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dabones
Member
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2011 09:14pm
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Wow, some really good idea's.. Toyota Tech and TomChum have it down.. it's great to be able to be "friends" with them, so they can watch out for your land.. rather than them be enemies and have them damage your land..
I have a neighbour at my land who hunts.. I don't really want him hunting on my land, but I gave him permission to track on it, as long as he's mindful of trails and my stuff.. and he in turn gave me permission to walk his trails as long we treat his the same..
..This keeps him and me happy..
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TomChum
Member
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# Posted: 30 Apr 2011 10:34am
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Thanks guys. If Kelly keeps in touch I guess we'll see how this goes when tested in "reality".
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hattie
Member
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# Posted: 30 Apr 2011 01:05pm
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On our camp property, we string a padlocked, metal chain across the path, but have the chain wrapped in bright orange tape with big pieces of tape hanging from it so it is VERY visible. We also have a couple of signs up that say "active mining in the area", "test holes"....Most people stay away. We make sure we always keep the orange tape on the chain fresh. If it gets faded it will look like no one is still there.
We have lots of free range cattle up here and the ranchers frequently build gates to keep the cattle in certain areas. They always have a sign on their gates that visitors are welcome, but to close the gate after themselves and keep to the paths. I have never seen anyone disrespect those wishes.
Good luck. Keep us posted how you make out.
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Kelly
Member
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# Posted: 1 May 2011 05:26pm
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Thanks to all for the good advise, I really think for right now I will go ahead and post all areas I can clearly with signs to start getting the word out for now. I'll hold off on other ways for a long time and see if it slows. I will be meeting up with the older man that sold us the land as he did state he wasn't amused that someone threw old pig slats from an old ramp accross the creek without his permission when he owned it. you can see in the picture that broken cement slats were tried first but failed. The man in question does not own property near here. He collects and sells junk in the area. Yes there is some trails on the property beside mine that was the seller of my property, he kept some large acerage for conservation purposes and just made some trails so they had ways to get back to work the water areas. He also doesn't want lots of traffic as it defeats his whole purpose of the wild life habitat, I think that because it looks so nice word got out and its just spilled over to mine. I just need to nip it in the bud before someone puts a snowmobile cabin up without asking! Please don't get me pegged wrong, I myself love 4wling and snowmobiling and all to do with nature, thats why we bought it. But I would never go to someone elses land and do whatever I felt like without asking. If I was that type of person, I certainly would have saved a large chunk of money and just used someone elses land to play on. I have a great relationship with the neighbour already and I know we all just want to enjoy the wildlife and views we are lucky to enjoy. Thanks to all your advise I'm sure some of you have had to deal with these issues and I agree I don't think it will happen in one season.
Wow your cabin pics and nature pics are great I also woodwork so I can appreciate your hard work, and my oldest son wants to get into photography, I' ll show him the pic's I think it will really inspire him! I can't wait til next spring when we finally get to build and enjoy our little cabin too!
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iwhitewater
Member
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# Posted: 15 May 2011 06:31pm
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Kelly,
I would have to ask about the local laws. Some of those trails may be very old and in use for decades if not longer. There might be an easment created by their constant use over the years. There is a concept of Easment by prior use and Easment by necessity in some governmental jurisdictions. If either are the case you may not be able to gate, fence off or restrict access to these paths. Check with your local sherriff to find out if any of these apply.
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TomChum
Member
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# Posted: 15 May 2011 07:15pm - Edited by: TomChum
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Regarding a right-of-way due to prior usage, I would not talk to anyone about it or give anyone ideas. The sheriff himself might prefer to use your bridge. I would simply pursue directions that act to reduce the pressure or attraction to cross your land, and be discrete.
I doubt they will pursue it. They will have to prove that crossing your land is a necessity ( beyond simple convenience ). Just a hunch but I bet it would be a steep uphill battle for someone to win recreational use of your land.
You should check with your municipality that there is no recorded easement. If there is an easement, the conditions of the easement will tell you who can use it. This is something you should KNOW about your land. You don't have to tell anyone if there is an easement, but you should know it yourself. Often easements have very specific usage, for example "for purposes of timber operations", a case that would not include recreation.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 7 Jan 2013 11:42pm
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On our land in Florida, we had a major problem with 4-wheelers tearing up the roads when we weren't around. When we found the trails they were coming in on we placed "nail boards" to puncture their tires and drove pipes into the ground that would catch the undercarriage of their 4-wheelers. We also strung barbed wire about 4' off the ground. Yes, I know what the barbed-wire does when you hit it however that's their problem since they were illegally trespassing anyway. After getting their machines and themselves torn up a couple times, they magically just stayed away.
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 8 Jan 2013 12:12am
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any home and property owners don't realize is that they have a civil duty to provide a "safe environment" for trespassers. No matter how many no trespassing signs, gates, fences, or means you install to let intruders know they are not welcome, it is your duty as the owner of the property to ensure they have a safe place to trespass.
Tort Law states that a trespasser is one who enters on the land of another without the right to do so. A landowner owes no duty to a trespasser except to refrain from injuring him by "willful and wanton" misconduct. You cannot intentionally harm the trespasser. However, there are exceptions to the law which makes the property owner responsible for any damages sustained by the unwelcome if they are injured or have damages due to their own behavior.
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TomChum
Member
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# Posted: 8 Jan 2013 12:52am
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Quoting: Anonymous We also strung barbed wire about 4' off the ground. Yes, I know what the barbed-wire does when you hit it however that's their problem since they were illegally trespassing anyway
If you placed a land mine in the road it would be about the same. If anyone was killed you would go to jail for negligent homicide. It would be very difficult for you to escape a wrongful death lawsuit and you could lose your land. If those lethal dangers are still out there you would be wise to remove them ASAP. The only wise thing I can see you've done is post anonymously.
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Kelly
Member
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# Posted: 8 Jan 2013 12:52am
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Thanks all for the info, i havent been on for a really long time, miss the conversations;)
The trespassers kept coming, even after blocking paths with fallen trees, they just brought chainsaws! The bridge i had is totally wrecked so they just drive in the creek beside it and have ruined the banks and made lots of new trails and wrecked the others, the tracks are soo deep its unsafe for us as our type of atvs would belly out!
I never did get to build my little cabin home, i had plans for as my township is set to be totally plastered by massive wind turbines as close as 450m. Theres no way i can build there now. Its sad we have this beautiful land and its a total waste.
I barely went over this summer as its a stinging reminder of what could have been.
Sorry to be a downer but living in limbo has that effect sometimes.
I could prob write a great country song, i do have a truck and my dog did die too...
Stay well folks enjoy a turbine free land. And enjoy the critters while u still have them!
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TomChum
Member
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# Posted: 8 Jan 2013 12:56am
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.....If someone was tearing up my land I'd be mad too....
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Kelly
Member
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# Posted: 8 Jan 2013 01:17am
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Yes tom, nothing burns u up when your fishing with your kids and u hear chainsaws on your own land. To much cover to ever catch them!
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TomChum
Member
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# Posted: 8 Jan 2013 01:23am - Edited by: TomChum
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You should get put up some game cameras and get photos of the trespassers. If you can positively identify the trespassers it will be to your advantage. You can show pics to the sheriff.
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Dillio187
Member
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# Posted: 8 Jan 2013 08:20am
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I would get the law involved!
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Thunder9
Member
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# Posted: 8 Jan 2013 11:00am
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Kelly, I feel for your situation. The people you are dealing with or at least trying to stop destroying your land have no respect for anything or anybody. Since you've heard of the plans for turbines near you I can understand why you are reluctant to build your cabin. This does not mean your family shouldn't be able to enjoy your land. And if you were to build the cabin in the wooded portion of property the turbine might just be out of sight. Out of sight, out of mind!
At this point I would visit with local law enforcement and discuss this situation. Most times they will offer good sound advise with possible offers to check on the property when in the area.
As suggested in an earlier post, well hidden outdoor wild life camera's would be a big help in identifing these trespassers. One idea would be to put another tree across a path in view of the camera's.
For your safety, I wouldn't approach these people personally. Have law enforcement deal with them.
Good luck in what ever route you take.
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bobbotron
Member
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# Posted: 8 Jan 2013 11:05am
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Man, sorry to hear that Kelly! I'm an Ontario resident too. There are some real inconsiderate rednecks here, (as well as really nice people...) I think, if people were using your land nicely that's one thing, but tearing up your property isn't nice...
I like reasoning with people for sure... but this sounds like it might be time to get a few game cameras and maybe getting the local police department on side.
Or... you could start bee/wasp keeping, sunk herding or start up a wolf sanctuary? Any of the three would be a good way to keep me off a land.
Bummer about the turbines, though I think people make more of a fuss out of them than they are, here in Ont?
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flyrdr
Member
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# Posted: 8 Jan 2013 11:32am
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Back in the 70's I rented a farmhouse that on southwestern NY state sat on 240 acres of land which the landlord had heavily posted with no trespassing no hunting signs. He had signs about every 50 feet on both sides of the road/driveway that went through the property. Despite that people converged on the property on foot, on dirt bikes, on atv's, snowmobiles and pickup trucks. I witnessed a truck pull up to a no hunting no trespassing sign that was in the middle of a dirt road that entered one of the fields on the property. He pulled up to it, stepped out of the truck and read it, then got back into his truck and ran over the sign and drove onto the field. Only once did a hunter approach the house and ask permission to hunt on the land which I granted.
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TomChum
Member
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# Posted: 8 Jan 2013 12:16pm
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Put a tree across the trail, with "priv prop, no trespassing" sign on it. Hide a game camera and get a pic of the guy cutting the sign out. Then go to the sheriff with that.
It takes some time to learn how to use Game cameras though..... You have to try a few schemes, and NOT lose your camera in the process. Recommend to find the place for the camera first. Test it, get some pics of yourself etc, then place the sign across and get the pic of whoever cuts out your sign.
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