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bugs
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# Posted: 14 Feb 2011 17:56 - Edited by: bugs
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I was wondering how many out there in small cabin land are trying to just blend in "with the wood work" so to speak with their approach to their cabin experience and sit back and watch and listen? I know there are many who use their cabins for hunting and fishing as well as enjoying nature. That is fine and I am not deriding you for that in any way.
When we got our little chunk of land we made a conscious effort to disturb it as little as possible. And also try our best not to disturb the inhabitants. WE are the guests. We were influenced a great deal by Bob Long's series "A Year and 40 acres" and books by R D Lawrence and others.
So for us hunting on our land is not an option. There are no vermin there are only residents. We are the intruders. Even when white mice disguised as deer mice invaded our shed. (We are trying to "persuade" them to leave by torturing them (lol) with peppermint oil and cayenne pepper burning their noses, eyes and mouths rather than trapping them and killing them relatively painlessly.)
We walk quietly and try to keep vehicle traffic to only what is necessary. We only canoe on the pond when it won't disturb nesting.
So far we have been rewarded by many close encounters with the residents. After their initial meetings with us they are now essentially ignoring us or we become the observee's and they are the observers alas "Never Cry Wolf". This arrangement has allowed us to watch some interesting behaviours (eg a red squirrel hunting a chipmunk, etc) and get some nice close up pix of many of the animals and birds just going about their business of survival.
Anyway I was just wondering if there were other deep end "hugger" types out there.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 14 Feb 2011 20:25 - Edited by: MtnDon
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I have no idea what you land is like, where it is or how natural it is. Our mountain land was like too much of the mountain land in the western USA, an over abundance of both living and dead trees; the result of years of wildfire suppression.
Our tree density was 4 to 5 times that what is generally recognized as being proper for good tree health. There was little natural about this forest. The closely spaced trees coupled with the dense ground cover of fallen trees and dead branches made it difficult for the larger animals to move through. There was little hope of the native grasses flourishing.
After two years of hard work removing the ground clutter and removing hundreds of standing living trees per acre there was a small fire on the property to the west. As the local forest fire departments made their way over miles of forest roads the fire slowed and virtually stopped at our property line. Enough time was gained that the fire fighters were then able to contain and extinguish the fire. I am convinced that our clean up saved our land from being devastated by fire as well as saving the cabin. The fire crews and their chiefs told us they rejoiced when they saw how much clean up we had done.
Note, we used no heavy machinery to do the work, just a chain saw and a jeep and a trailer on an existing road. We either hauled everything uphill or threw it downhill. Mostly we tossed and rolled sections downhill. Tree trunk sizes ranged from an inch or so to eight or nine inches in diameter. height up to 55 - 65 feet.
Our land is now more natural than most of the surrounding land. We have native grasses spreading more between the trees. To the west of us the landowner still has not seen the wisdom of cleaning up, even though he lost many trees to the fire. Even the forest service has been thinning and cleaning out the underbrush for the past two summers.
We see deer and elk, coyotes, rabbits, squirrels, chipmunks and turkeys frequently. Once a year maybe a bear. Good numbers of birds. I have so many pictures I sometimes wonder why I take more.
The normal historical state of affairs in this forest was that lightning would spark wild fires every July and August. Some would be extinguished by the monsoon rains that sometimes accompany the lightning. Others though would burn for months, winding this way and that way. Finally snow in the fall and winter would put them all out. This went on for hundreds of years, centuries, before the west was 'discovered" and settled. We have told me that historically every acre would see fires of some sort every 5 to 10 years. Lots of smaller fires, hardly ever any big ones.
So my take on tree hugging is that sometimes there is nothing natural about the forests we embrace. Sometimes some trees have to be thinned out so the remaining trees can make better use of the water.
Anyhow that's me and my view.
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MikeOnBike
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# Posted: 15 Feb 2011 00:04
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MtnDon, I agree with you.
We have a similar problem. Years of fire supression have allowed the juniper to invade the mtn. Mahogany and starve it for water. The juniper also draws up enough water to kill thw native grass for yards around the tree. Years of over grazing have also taken a toll on the grass and riparian areas.
Bugs, I don't think we disagree with you about being good stewards but it will be a lot of work for many years to restore the land to what mother nature once was.
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bugs
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2011 09:38
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I have watched the tv reports of the wild fires and have read some on the ecology of the fire driven ecosystems whether it be the montane type or the tall/short grass prairies.
It sounds like you guys are doing a lot of work. I was wondering how you deal with the native plants that require fire for germination etc. I suspect clearing the dead fall/ground clutter and unnatural understory would not provide these plants the ques needed to germinate. Or is there a way of doing this too?
We are in the aspen parkland. In many ways quite different from what you folks have posted. The parkland started extending south when the prairies became cultivated and the large sweeping prairie fires quit occurring keeping the parkland at bay. Now most of the aspen region in our area has also been turned into cropland and what remains is often over grazed resulting in all the native understory being lost and replaced by "golf green cropped non native grasses" and only the "pruned" old trees remaining.
When we first looked at our land we were surprised to see it more (what I would consider) natural than the above. It was likely grazed up until about 20 years ago and there was a fire through it maybe 10 years ago (judging from some of the scars to the trees). It appears that the understory is recovering and we have a nice sequence of shrub and tree diversity from saplings through to old trees about to die. The forest floor has a good scattering of fallen decaying logs and a variety of vegetation from shade loving to full sun types. All of this is rarely seen now due to what I have mentioned above.
We were stunned when we pushed through the driveway two years ago. The following spring the wild flowers on the "disturbed" ground were incredible. Many of these "pioneering" plants only grow on disturbed ground and can survive 20+ years as seeds waiting for such a disturbance to germinate. It was quite the show.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2011 20:50
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As for the trees, none of ours require fire or heat for their serotinous cones to open and disperse seeds. We have a preponderance of Ponderosa Pines, some Doug Fir, some Aspen and a few Gambrel (Scrub) Oaks. Those do fine by themselves. Grasses and what not, I'm not sure. The burn adjacent to us has had good recovery but we haven't noticed anything growing there that we haven't seen growing on our unburned land before. Well, except for the corn he planted.
We estimate that we've burned 200 piles of debris scattered around our property over the past three years. We toss the ashes about and within a year there are grasses and things growing. We've also burned small areas of the heavy duff. That also promotes grass growth but we have to be careful to do it in strips maybe only a few feet wide on the slopes. We don't want the rains to wash everything downhill.
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elkdiebymybow
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2011 00:38
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I consider myself a "tree-hugger", lover of all things wild and also a woodsman and hunter. I think that one can have great respect for the land and living creatures yet use these resources in a sustainable way in order to live a life close to the land. I have built my cabin from trees felled on my property. I hunt big and small game animals for nearly 100% of my meat diet. I get no pleasure in the taking of a life, be it an elk or a duck. The respect I have for these creatures perhaps is greater than those who do not partake in the hunting experience. When I drop a tree not only do I have respect for that tree but I feel compassion for all the plants which get impacted from the falling tree landing on them. Who amongst us isn't an environmentalist? Truely, it is hard to imagine that there are folks who don't respect the natural world. I for one believe one can have a healthy respect for all living things and respectfully harvest a sustainable portion of the natural world.
I had an email exchange lasting over a week with a fellow who headed up a well known national environmental group. Our discussion was regarding the wolf hunt in Idaho and this group was pushing for a boycott of Idaho potatoes because Idaho had a legal hunt to reduce an out of control wolf population.- that is a discussion in itself. What I learned through my daily dialogue with this guy was that no matter what I said, no matter how I tried to clearly share my point of view, he had absolutley no tolerance nor interest in hearing a differing opinion. He had complete disrespect for anyone who didn't share his view point. I found this quite interesting. I always have respect for an opposing view, it was hard for me to understand how this man, working in a high rise in downtown New York City could be a better judge of what happens in the Idaho woods than someone like myself who spends a considerable amount of time exploring the natural world.
I firmly believe one may be a "tree-hugging, wood cutting, wild life eating, environmentally friendly, plant/animal loving, respectful member of the natural world". The vast majority of those I have encountered spending time in the natural world do so for the same reasons.
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SmlTxCabin
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2011 10:49
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Amen, Elkie!
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bugs
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2011 11:18
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elkdie...
I think you may have missed the point of my question. I was referring to the property that your cabin (in our case, shed ) was on ie the person is owns. So for us we are watchers. We try to impact the place as little as possible. Maybe I didn't quite ask the question right.... Often happens.
We likely took down the same amount of trees to push our driveway through as you did to build your log cabin. The downed trees are already decomposing and colonized by fungi and in a couple of years will be back to soil. As I mentioned the scar of our driveway was an opportunity for pioneering plants to have a chance to grow. Been quite interesting to watch how nature recovers..... It does not like a vacuum.
Anyway I relearned from MtnDon that unlike our situation, we just have to protect the land, in other ecoregions he and others are having to be active stewards to try and bring the land back to a more natural condition after years of mismanagement.
Slightly off topic but.....As to culls (whether it is predators herbivores or MonB's junipers): They are usually in response to an ecosystem out of whack. Why the ecosystem is out of whack may vary from poorly planned, short sighted management practices (possibly politically/economically motivated) or short term climatic/weather issues or catastrophic events. Nature's clock is not the same as human's and definitely not the same as North American political clocks. Nor is Nature's sustainability the same as human society's sustainability.
More off topic: You sound like you have a lot more patience re your "discussion" than I do. If the 'opposing" parties are not willing to back off from their initial positions and examine the real facts objectively and then possibly modify their position then the exercise is just a waste of breath/key strokes. The terms "dogma" and "rhetoric" come to mind.
More off topic: I think we are on the same page regarding hunting. I see nothing wrong with hunting to fill the larder. I don't do it cause I feel I can afford to purchase our meats from local farmers or fish from local fishermen. (Just so you know I do know where my food comes from. When growing up on the farm lots of my pets ended up on the table. Even my 1200 lb hoof/hand shaking steer. Sniff sniff!) And in my opinion if I "shoot" a deer/coyote/eagle with my camera rather than a gun it still has long term economic value (ecotourism for the poor European sods who have managed their "natural" out of existence.) and environmental/ecological value.
But I do not understand sport/trophy hunting/fishing and the seemingly important"kill picture". (Human's dominion over nature.) Just don't understand it. But that is just me and my outlook on things. Heck I am getting so soft hearted in my advancing years that I only collect the minimum number of bugs to do my research and leave the rest to do what they are supposed to do. Unless they start munching on me then "all bets are off" lol.
But this is just my humble opinion and I have learned in the scheme of things and over too many years that my humble opinion does not mean much.
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Gary O
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2011 11:22 - Edited by: Gary O
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Elk, you are after your time.
Wonderful words.
It would be a much different world if more, many more, were of this thinking.
Thank you for restoring my faith in mankind.
And, yes, a debate can be frustrating if it's not based on a mutual pursuit of a right solution.
However, I'm sure, if your Email exchange was read by others, and was as eloquent as your posting here, your opine will not go unnoticed.
Keep a fire
Gary O'
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Gary O
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2011 11:30
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Quoting: bugs But this is just my humble opinion and I have learned in the scheme of things and over too many years that my humble opinion does not mean much.
The hell it don't!
Your class and gentle opine is rubbing off on this aging, crass Geezer.
Your a great read bugs, and geez, bugs and lesser beings are the basis of it all, right?
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cabingal3
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# Posted: 20 Feb 2011 18:40
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our woods are so deep with trees and a wonderful meadow and no one lives past us us.it is so nice...but because of fire danger.we have to get the dead brush burned and also get as much weeds and bushes off the land so as to give it a pumiced bare ground effect so as to have a safety circle around our cabin.we have seen too many places burned up at our neck of the woods.i hate that part of it.i like things to be heavy with all kinds of wild weeds and brush.so i can forage about to see what is growing.but i guess i would rather enjoy the space of the land and our cabin not in cinders.
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elkdiebymybow
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# Posted: 26 Feb 2011 01:35 - Edited by: elkdiebymybow
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Bugs-
Your humble opinion is wonderful and well worthy of others taking notice of. Great discussions abound in this forum and it is because people like you offer up meaningful words to ponder.
Continuing off topic, for the record I too have no ability to understand hunting for "sport".
In an attempt to get back on topic I offer the following:
Time spent at the cabin comes with surprises on a daily basis. Often I will sit out front kick my feet up, watch and listen. We have a bald eagle that lives in a tree perhaps 400 yards away on the edge of the lake. He will often spend time perched up in a tree close by and in clear view from our place. Magnificant creature, especially through a spotting scope at close range. Osprey are a very common visitor as they do many a fly over enroute to fishing grounds. We see numerous woodpeckers. The sounds of their hard work mining for bugs along with the stories all the other birds share when dawn breaks is one of the most wonderful alarm clocks I have ever enjoyed waking up to. I am particularly fond of the numerous humming birds which frequent our property. We don't put out feeders but have native vegetation that the little hummers really enjoy. This summer I'm planning to add a perennial flower garden with items such as agastache, penstemon, honey suckle, trumpet vine, columbine, salvia and buddleia. These are some favorites for hummingbirds. I'm tempted to shoot the squirrels whom invade my space and gnaw on pine cones while perched inside my cabin. But, with a little reflection, I am reminded that I have built the cabin from trees that once provided them food and a home- I think they deserve a little leeway. We often enjoy the fox, raccoons, porcupine, deer, elk and an occasional moose and bear. We have had wolves cross the property but I only saw the tracks- my father in-law saw the pack. I enjoy the little critters too when I pause to take notice. Check out how many insects are around your place- you'll be amazed. I'm one of those guys that when my wife freaks out over a bee or a spider, I let the dudes free instead of smashing the life out of them. So, yes I am a firm believer that a large part of enjoying time at the cabin is taking notice of all the wonderous activity that constantly goes on around the place. I feel fortunate to witness a small portion of the natural world which surrounds our cabin and find peace in time spent noticing what goes on. I suspect most of us can relate to how fortunate it is to have that special place to go to and spend some quality time outside of the 'regular' routine.
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bugs
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# Posted: 26 Feb 2011 11:29
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elkdie.... What a wonderful image you have painted. You do have a knack.
Don't worry as per my handle the "bugs" are being observed and documented from our place as have been the plants and mushrooms. I hunt with a bug net and camera now instead of a gun.
OT again (Dang I wander!) When I was a kid I used to plink off all the "vermin" on the farm and devour books of sport hunting safaris. But I have changed my views. I think this was attributed to Mohamed Ali, I paraphrase here, "If your view of life at 20 years old is the same at 50 years old you have wasted 30 years of your life."
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Jim in NB
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# Posted: 21 Dec 2013 11:10
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Bugs - great quote - never heard that one before and how so very true. Hard to add much to this chat other than keep your eyes open and learn more and more about the ecosystem your place is in as time goes on. Minimal impacts is always good. I like to think I have built my place in nature rather than on it - of course that is subjective and from my viewpoint. Bugs you may want to contact Canadian Wildlife Service in Saskatoon. When I worked in SK in the late 80s and early 90s they were providing a lot of input to private land forestry in SK. They had a lot of info on the various species of migratory song birds and particularly the interior of bush varieties which probably have been impacted the most from the clearing in the parkland. Surprisingly a lot of the woodlot owners wanted to use their bush like you.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 21 Dec 2013 12:23 - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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Bugs and elkie, all great post. Good reads. I guess I'm a mix of both of you guys. Hunted all my life, but lately, just haven't done it in the last 6 yrs, been busy burning up my vacation on my cabin and land. Buy most my meat from the stores. But may try to get out for deer in 2014. I try to leave my land as natural as possible. Looking for a clearing to put my cabin, so minimal tree removal was possible. Used existing roads. Kept the rest of my 20 acres untouched. But the local DNR (dept of natural resources) would like us timber farmers (as the state refers to us as) to clean underbrush, clear out tight groups of smaller trees, cut the lower tree branches all off up to the 6 foot mark.
I love nature and its animals. Even the small ones. I too am like elkie, instead of squishing the spider, move them outside etc. (I thought i was the only strange one when it comes to not killing bugs etc  )
I built my cabin such a way I would get no intruders inside. So I have not even killed a mouse yet. I know they are all creatures of god. And fur bearing mammals, I have a real soft spot for.
Bugs, I can appreciate you not hunting with a rifle as your choice and I also respect the fact you are not trying to stop others that want too. (we are on the same page when it comes to trophy hunters too). All too often, I see someone who doesn't like something and try to make it illegal for anyone else to do it such as the wolf advocate in NY elkie spoke of. Lets introduce wolves into central park in NY city, then protect them and see how he likes it
I have found all the cabin owners have a lot of common ground when it comes to the land and animals around them.
I'm blessed with white tail, mule deer, moose, black bear, grizzly, wolves, cougars, bobcat, turkey, coyotes, squirrels, chipmunks and lots of birds.
I am in the process of picking up another 20 acres that butts up against my east boundary. The owner is Navy and will be back in April to do the paperwork. I'm going to do nothing with it except to eventually fence it off. We get a nice tax break for timberland's. In my case, 20 acres will cost me around $32 a year to own.
Bugs, I have always enjoyed your photos and seeing the names of those animals and plants too. So keep those going.
Great post and you guys all have a nice Christmas. 
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neb
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# Posted: 21 Dec 2013 18:26 - Edited by: neb
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I would consider myself a tree hugger but I do hunt, fish and some trapping. With the lands that I have owned through the years I have always taken care of and respect the land and try to keep it as it once was. The cabin I have now I carried all material up and side ways to the building site. I could of built a road or made a trial but that was not an option I didn't want to disturb the land. I walk a trail that gane have made and we share it. I have a hard time even breaking a very small branch when hiking. As far as hunting it isn't easy taking life but it needs to be managed right and it is a responsibility for all of us the preserve what we have. In the late winter and spring I don't walk up in areas that I know game are living because I don't want to bother them. That may sound stupid but I would say I do have some tree hugger in me. LOL I am a steward of the land and teach others that it is very important to take care of the great outdoor. I have seen people tear up hills with dirt bikes and things like and it does bother me but it is what it is.
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Kudzu
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# Posted: 21 Dec 2013 18:35
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I have 40 acres and have citified one acre, I feel that was an OK trade.
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creeky
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# Posted: 21 Dec 2013 19:23
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Put me down as another tree hugger. Heck I'm even a tree talker. Hug a tree long enough. Often enough. And they will start to talk to you.
I've always been caught between "conservation" and "preservation." With my small farm it's managed conservation that wins.
By example, two summers ago I dug an "embayment" into the creek that runs at the bottom of my farm. It offers some kinds of fish a spawning area. And it makes it easier to get the kayaks in and out.
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OwenChristensen
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# Posted: 22 Dec 2013 08:59
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If you like nature, be it. Like it of not we were intended to be part of this planet. You can't kill, you shouldn't eat. I too love the land, I always have. I've been blessed with living with nature my whole life. I've seen the climax timber come and go. I've watched all types of animal life and their reaction to each other. I hold my space clean from spiders, mice. ticks or anything that offend me, I'll gladly squish them in the cabin. I have spent my whole life protecting hundreds of acres of remote property. I have seen the scars of humans on the woods. I don't like it and have learned some of what works and what doesn't. The biggest thing I've learned is that Mother can repair itself. I hunt a little, don't call me a sportsman, I do not kill for sport. I don't ask anyone what to do. I live deep into nature, I am in it not looking at it as if it's in a zoo. I hug trees, don't call me a tree hugger, I'm not like you. I have personally planted over two hundred thousand trees and reclaimed old cleared land. I'm old enough to have seen them grow to eighty feet tall. I have many types of habitat and there is always good in it for something. On weekends I stay away from the road where city people come to save the planet. They eat meat from the market. They make money enough to hire someone to slaughter for them. They rush north to the woods on their day off and disturb everything. Killing tons of creatures with their cars and yet preach tree hugging. I'm sorry to hijack the post and I do like you people. I'm glad you have learned to find pleasure in the woods and your small cabin. We have that in common.
Owen
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 22 Dec 2013 17:33 - Edited by: silverwaterlady
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I love my land. DH hunted partridge once. We fish. If we lived there full time we would deer hunt. I see nothing wrong with hunting on our land if you are doing it to feed yourself or your family.
We've given permission to a few close full time neighbors to hunt our land. This hunting was done out of necessary. Living full time on our island is not easy. Food is expensive and jobs are hard to come by.
We have managed our wood lot by taking trees,white cedar,that were mature. If this is not done they rot in the middle. Our trees were used to build our cabin. The sand on our beach for cement. The stones for our cabin.
We share our land with family and friends from the city.As long as they respect nature I welcome them. Everyone needs nature. I consider myself very lucky that my DH( far before I knew him) purchased this land in the early 1970's.
I feel sad for the mice I kill. They are in my cabin chewing on my logs. Pooping on everything. It's unsanitary. So I trap them. I'm not losing any sleep over it.
Bottom line,I see no problem with utilizing the natural resources on our land just as the pioneers to our land did. DH's Great,Great Grandfather was one of the first pioneers to settle on our island.
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TheWildMan
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# Posted: 23 Dec 2013 11:17
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I chose the nickname thewildman because people who live in my area call me the wild man. I live in a cabin in the woods and live off grid and in a lot of ways like an old time mountain man. most of my friends are native (first nations) and many regard me as the earthy nature guy. however I am not a tree hugger. tree hugger type ideals are admirable but misguided and I have seen tree huggers cause catastrophic ecologic damage while thinking they were helping nature (wildfire suppression, invasive weeds, introduced wildlife species, etc). where tree huggers see a forest and don't want anyone touching it I may see a biodiversity desert composed of only 2 or 3 species of invasive weeds that out competed everything else and provide no habitat for wildlife. the best thing to do in this case is to remove everything and replant it with work crews maintaining it every couple of years, a clear cut in this case is a good thing. when you consider forests in terms of healthy ecosystems and wildlife habitat and understand what your looking at and how nature, trees, and animals interact then you realize the touchy feely tree hugger thing is actually harmful to nature.
many foolish people are firmly against hunting and think bambie should be left alone, however deer are not that bright and if they are not regulated by wolves and other predators (that humans wiped off the face of the US in a lot of places) then they will over populate and actually kill forests by over browsing on everything so that nothing is left in the forest understory, then the deer start having widespread diseases transmitted fast through the dense population, the deer also suffer malnutrition. a pregnant doe with mal nutrition will self abort a buck in her womb and only birth does (the buck fetus being reabsorbed and fed to the doe fetus). the forests will be so over browsed that not even the smallest shrub or seedling can survive. when the existing trees die of old age there is nothing to replace them. this is actually being seen by foresters in a number of states where hunting is not popular. long term these forests are being destroyed because some tree huggers feel its wrong to kill a deer, and the deer themselves are becoming sick and disease (like chronic wasting disease) and starvation are happening to reduce the population. this is nature and things need to be in balance in a healthy ecosystem, while tree hugger type ideals are nice wishful thinking they actually cause damage because they rely on wishful thinking and emotional intuition (feel goodie-ness) and don't take natures way of doing things into account.
sorry about the rant and bluntness
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old greybeard
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# Posted: 9 Jan 2014 13:18
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I'm a tree hugger and a game hugger. But I also select cut down/kill trees for firewood, during late winter, when they also provide browse. And we also kill and eat 2 deer or so a year, and this year a bear. Luckily we have a farm to hunt on with a overpopulation of deer.
Mankind can never just be a observer/intruder, we are part and parcel of the environment.
The effects of invasive species brought in by man are a much bigger issue than hunting.
I can't stand the left wing anti hunting tree huggers, they hate us with a passion. Yet they have no answer as to why, at least in my state, ALL conservation protections are paid for by hunters and shooters. To the benefit of game and non game animals. People expect the hunters to pay for the wolves re-introduction, watch them decimate the elk we hunt, and not have a management plan that includes hunting?
Even the oil/gas industry which is around me is needed. How can we be against this development unless we give up all our toys and conveniences, which btw I'm willing to do. But we can't save our land and feel good about polluting a foreign land which has no pollution controls. Or Windmills which kill more creatures than the wells near my land.
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