| . 1 . 2 . >> |
| Author |
Message |
rockies
Member
|
# Posted: 6 Jul 2015 08:50pm
Reply
http://www.treehugger.com/
|
|
Salty Craig
Member
|
# Posted: 6 Jul 2015 10:28pm - Edited by: Salty Craig
Reply
Very interesting..... Pure curiosity; are you mocking this site or is this a sincere effort to share good info with all the great folks on this forum?
I realize that the "green" movement stirs up a lot of emotion in certain crowds. I for one, really appreciate every effort to keep the earth clean and be environmentally friendly.
I take great pride in killing and eating a nice buck. But.... I scold my kids for putting bugs in a jar. Weird you say??
I refuse to burn trash but drive my crew cab V8 F150 with great joy.
I burn as few lights in the house as possible, but won't hesitate to drain the hot water heater when I shower if the mood strikes.
I fertilize the garden with compost and manure but will nuke my fence rows with 2,4D without thinking twice.
I recycle cardboard, aluminum, and a few things that pay, but have never sorted out glass in my life.
Tree hugger? That's a term generally given to an anti-capitalist who uses the environment as a handle to stop all forward progress that successful people attempt to make. So probably not a good description of Salty Craig.
Conservative? That's me. I care about the environment. I strive to leave a small footprint. I believe in stewardship of the things I am given. (Ahem) I believe that if the bridge needs to be built, the frogs can breed in another area. I believe that the government is rarely the solution.
And one more point before I end my diatribe; if it weren't for huge John Deere tractors and GMO crops, all the tree huggers would starve and the most wonderful lands on the face of the earth would look like a banana republic. I include my Canadian friends in the most wonderful lands phrase.
Peace and hippy love,
Salty
|
|
toyota_mdt_tech
Member
|
# Posted: 6 Jul 2015 10:46pm
Reply
Salty, are you my twin??? 
|
|
Salty Craig
Member
|
# Posted: 6 Jul 2015 11:02pm
Reply
toyota_mdt_tech
Could be twins Yota. I take it upon myself to show what true conservatism is. Has nothing to do with waving a gun around like an inbred idiot. That crowd is as ignorant as the "tree hugger" bunch. The extremes on both sides make everyone look bad.
I would venture a bet that we could all agree on many things.
Twins,..haha I like that!!
Salty
|
|
Shadyacres
Member
|
# Posted: 6 Jul 2015 11:03pm
Reply
pure poetry Salty
|
|
Salty Craig
Member
|
# Posted: 6 Jul 2015 11:10pm
Reply
Shadyacres
Thanks!
|
|
pizzadude
Member
|
# Posted: 6 Jul 2015 11:24pm - Edited by: pizzadude
Reply
Don't exclude me.. Triplets!
Me to a tee too..
Well said Salty
|
|
Salty Craig
Member
|
# Posted: 6 Jul 2015 11:35pm
Reply
pizzadude
Thanks! Glad you agree. Your in the family too.
|
|
|
Julie2Oregon
Member
|
# Posted: 7 Jul 2015 03:14am
Reply
Beautifully said, Salty Craig! Even if I'm not a conservative, I'm a fierce independent, lol. I seem to tick off both political conservatives and liberals in equal measure sometimes.
I think that a love of the land and a dedication to its care because of all that it is and offers us unites all sorts of folks. That's why I find such a wonderful spirit in the cabin community.
|
|
creeky
Member
|
# Posted: 7 Jul 2015 08:44am
Reply
I find the treehugger site, which I go to occasionally, to be part green washing. part actual green. lots of peripheral articles related to the environment and then there's one "advertorial" touting Tesla's. Which you can see as green or not.
I do dislike the pejorative use of the term treehugger. Whenever one makes those "them" and "us" distinctions: well. there are lots of "paths" who will take an artificial distinction and use it to make decisions that don't reflect well on mankind.
Luckily we all get to make our own decisions. More or less. And even nicer, we get to learn and adapt along the way.
Some don't want to read or learn. They cheerfully pour toxic chemicals on a bush line, kill thousands of creatures and endanger their and their families health. But hey, they can puff up their chest at their mighty power and tell themselves, (confirmation bias) that the hedgerow looks better dead.
Remember not to let the kids play there for a few years. And if it seeps into the neighbors well. I guess that's just one of those unavoidable things. And hey, who needs birds. Or travel corridors for nature. Ugly unruly nature I guess.
I come from a family of farmers. They're mostly green (tractor wize). I'm red. Grandpa was red. (tractor wize). In my area we're seeing a huge increase in the size of fields. The size of equipment. Government mandated GMO corn production for ethanol and big time subsidies.
Sadly, if you think GMO crops are feeding the world you know nothing about farming. But don't let research and knowledge influence your opinions. If you think GMO crops are causing fertility problems sadly you're probably right.
As for your frogs. We can let all the species die. The world has seen mass extinctions before. It only takes 10-20 million years for the world to recover and develop new species to fill in the environmental niches.
But if you think your kids, grandkids, great-greats are going to have a decent life with no pollinators, living in a barren landscape devoid of biological complexity, I wouldn't put my money on it.
Yup. Some folks like those neat tidy monocrop fields with the dead soil growing green gasoline. Progress. Others like to look out over varied fields with butterflies and bumblebees.
For some it's meat and potatoes every night. For others it's a wide variety of foods prepared in interesting and tasty ways.
Each to their own.
|
|
Julie2Oregon
Member
|
# Posted: 7 Jul 2015 01:17pm
Reply
I agree with you, too, creeky, except on the fine point of GMOs. There are GMOs and then there are GMOs. There's the development of plants that can naturally resist certain diseases and that provide a better yield in a slightly shorter amount of time. That's genetic modification, and it's beneficial. Farmers themselves have been doing that for a LONG time by grafting one type of plant onto another to create something new with improved properties.
And then there's the OTHER type of GMO that outfits like Monsanto are doing for profit, market share, and increased reliance on them that does harm to agriculture and the environment. That's the crap that needs to stop.
|
|
creeky
Member
|
# Posted: 7 Jul 2015 01:42pm
Reply
Just for background. the company "m" made poison. for instance the agent "fruit" that killed foliage and humans in a recent far east war. and is still effecting human birth outcomes.
this is not nice stuff.
when the war ended they didn't have a market to sell to. but they had a great foliage killer. hey kids. here's an idea. lets do genetic modification so our "gmo" foliage doesn't die but all other foliages do. sure our last foliage killers had real bad effects on humans. but if we spend a lot of money and squash that kind of talk. our stockholders will build safe houses and eat organic produce.
so as to GMOs. are there good ones? when you modify genetic partikularz you play with chance. you have, probabilistically, no way of knowing the outcome. okay. you can calculate probably outcomes.
one of those probable outcomes is very very very bad. like madame curie experimenting with radiation bad. but on a much larger scale.
so Julie2. if you could tell me what GMOs are the good ones. I would like to know. personally I can't tell.
and if I look at the world and I note that cancer and obesity and seemingly sugar related diseases are up so much that government departments are saying this generation being born right now is not likely to live as long as my generation.
mmmm. and I have a grandson. so. grrrr.
luckily I'm both an optimist and science lover. we can change our perspectives and our behaviour. starting with just say no to GMO.
Europe, India and now looks like China are all saying no to GMO. whew. And. come on. if China is saying no. duh.
there is, in all probability, a ridiculously limited chance that we can foresee the results of dumping toxins on ourselves. and even less in believing that we can be the one species that survives the great die off.
urk.
so again. creeky time out.
|
|
shall
Member
|
# Posted: 7 Jul 2015 04:10pm
Reply
good stuff Salty Craig
I think I may have quite a bit in common with you. I own a Prius, as well as 2 SUV's and a pick up
"green" appeals to me if it can save me money or offer some independence
|
|
Salty Craig
Member
|
# Posted: 7 Jul 2015 07:23pm
Reply
Julie and shall, thanks
Creeky, did I hit a nerve?
You praise the Chinese for saying no to GMO? Great. They have millions of hungry people and their cities are a toxic waste dump.
So a meadow full of thistles and butterflies is your idea of a meal? I do like honey.....
The progress of man has greatly altered earth from her original state. I can agree with you on that. However....we have greatly multiplied to the point that technology is needed to feed people.
If you prefer a society of gathering, please read up on the starvation in Ethiopia then look at your healthy grandchild, and hug the next farmer that you see planting GMO's.
Salty
|
|
Salty Craig
Member
|
# Posted: 7 Jul 2015 07:57pm
Reply
Oh, and Mcdonalds is what makes people fat. Not the bountiful harvest of a Midwestern corn field producing 200 bushels to the acre.
|
|
Julie2Oregon
Member
|
# Posted: 8 Jul 2015 02:34am
Reply
Nah, Creeky, I think I was being too cryptic. "Genetic modification" can be as simple as purposely grafting one type of plant onto another one to create a stronger plant with more desirable characteristics. That's what I meant about farmers long creating GMOs in good ways. There's nothing wrong with that.
Or there's the thing that Monsanto is doing with its poisons like Roundup, creating sterile plants that don't produce seeds so you have to buy theirs, etc. That's the bad kind of GMOs done for pure profit motive and to keep farmers beholden and dependent on their company/products. Their stuff also has been known to taint other crops with which it comes into incidental contact. That totally sux.
The term GMO is a catch-all phrase that includes any genetic modification but not ALL genetic modification is bad. Some of it reflects age-old family farm practice and wisdom, such as deciding which animals to breed in hopes of bringing out certain more profitable characteristics. And some, like the introduction of the high-yield rice hybrid called golden rice keeps millions of people from starving in Asia.
In the wrong hands, though, and with the wrong motivations, it can be scary.
|
|
Don_P
Member
|
# Posted: 8 Jul 2015 05:43am
Reply
Google for a definition of GMO please.
"Farmers do not use genetic modification to increase crop size, create seedless varieties, etc. These crop traits are created through good farming practices, cross-breeding or hybridization."
Creeky is spot on on this, I do like the rest of what you wrote Salty.
|
|
Salty Craig
Member
|
# Posted: 8 Jul 2015 08:28am
Reply
Don_P
You are correct. Thanks for clarifying the fact that there is a major difference. I have been ignorantly lumping all technology into the GMO category.
The jury is still out on my thoughts about true GMO's. However, the technology that isn't "evil", is why we can feed the world.
Don_P you are a class act for making that point without any personal attacks.
A standout character trait.
Salty
|
|
creeky
Member
|
# Posted: 8 Jul 2015 09:18am
Reply
thank you Don_P for correcting the misinterpretation of GMO.
Now if someone could clarify farming. By far the majority of worlds food comes from small farmers. Do not confuse "agri-business" with farming.
Ecology 101:
All creatures live in distributed populations. So those frogs may be using that part of the river because that's the only suitable habitat. Maybe they're small frogs and the water there is a little faster which keeps bigger frogs who think they are tasty away. When you build your bridge you kill one population. Perhaps that leaves two populations. One north and one south. A flood wipes out the north population. Now normally the bridge population would repopulate the north area. But it doesn't exist and there's slack water and predators blocking the south population from repopulating that area. Then some nincompoop dumps a bunch of poison on his yard to that he can see the river. This wipes out a mess of fish and the south frog population.
Welcome to an extinction event.
Now those frogs may eat mosquito larvae and snails. Those snails may excrete a virus which is taken up by the larvae. The larvae hatch and infect horses. The horses transmit the virus to the young girls riding them. The stricken girls have a 20% mortality rate. It's all linked together.
Don't not build the bridge. Just take a moment to be sure your not harming someone else first.
While I didn't mean my remarks to be taken personally. Yes. I am horrified by the toxic chemicals anyone who has a few bucks in their pocket can purchase and distribute freely. Many of which are proven or suspected to be cancer causing.
So perhaps you can take your poison and "improve" your view with a ladeedah attitude. Yes, I find it irresponsible and irritating.
I also like your point on standout character traits. I believe you were the one who supplied us with the rude, wrong and reedunkulous characterization of the term treehugger.
perhaps better would be something like: treehugger. someone who loves the outdoors and believes that a healthy environment is a legacy to future generations as well as a joy for today.
|
|
Don_P
Member
|
# Posted: 8 Jul 2015 12:00pm - Edited by: Don_P
Reply
I guess I'm one.
This came a few minutes ago, it was a beauty.
The largest Kentucky coffee tree in NC and the third largest in the country is now on the ground. Luckily it fell the best way it could.
Time to make lemonade .
|
|
Salty Craig
Member
|
# Posted: 8 Jul 2015 07:16pm
Reply
I referred to the tree hugger site as good information.
I said I appreciate every effort to keep the earth clean.
The paragraph about tree huggers was classified as "a term generally given".
If one does not pull anything out of context, my entire comment at the top of this thread was somewhat of a defense to tree hugging.
I said that anti capitalist are called tree huggers. Not the other way around. That was clearly not a slam to tree hugging.
Folks cannot get their mind wrapped around the fact that conservatives totally care about the earth and are not in favor of ruining her. There's many conservatives in the country who would go loco if they say a neighbor burning tires or dumping motor oil in the gravels.
And on the frog thing.... Bridges don't create upstream and downstream frog colonies. Dams do. And the last time I checked, hydro electricity was touted as the greenest thing since trees.
Bridges span a distance with occasional footings into the river, creek, or swamp bottom. The concrete creates a habitat teaming with frogs, tadpoles, snails, fish, and turtles like ya can't imagine. Best place on the river to fish is around bridge pilings or other man made structures.
Yes, my comment about frogs finding another place to breed may have sounded like something an earth hating redneck would say. (Sorry, earth hating rednecks) but I'm smart enough to know that the frogs will simply hop to another spot, then return when the bridge is finished and thrive like never before.
P.S. I build bridges......and dams also.
|
|
creeky
Member
|
# Posted: 9 Jul 2015 11:41am
Reply
Salty. Let me put it to you another way.
You build a bridge. Do you let the concrete guy deliver any old kind of concrete or is it a specific kind? Do you build with pig iron, or are your cables wound from carefully tested strands of alloy?
That's nature. Carefully constructed for a reason. And lucky for us. Cause nature is why we're here.
Now let's take some yahoo with a jackhammer. Can he come and start willy nilly hammering holes in your bridge. Sure. For a while he can. Engineers usually over engineer these things just because of guys like him.
But suppose his buddies come along. They've got a couple of 24s of beer, burgers and a weekend to spend. Yee ha. Let's play with the jackhammer. And buddy brought a blow torch. Let's see if it'll whittle through that dang ugly lookin' cable.
Now what happens?
That's using toxic substances to kill stuff for basically no reason.
Frogs may hop away from your construction site and return. They can repopulate a variety of ways. But if you've stopped the faster current it may be a bigger species adapted for slow current moves in. So no. Your original frog never returns.
Big deal. It's just one kind of frog. Just like it's just one hole in the bridge.
Now let's take 90 million or so men of toxic purchasing and spreading age in North America alone.
That's a lot of holes in the bridge my friend. And the simple application of a small change in behaviour and attitude can make an enormous difference.
Nobody's saying, stop building bridges. Just try to do it with some thinking behind it. And yes, there will be problems. But you minimize harm to start.
Are some behaviours just stupid. Sure. Like using pesticides or herbicides for no real reason. You don't go out and shoot every dangnabit corn eating deer you see. But once it was considered by some to be appropriate.
You're a smart guy. No harm in being capable of learning and change.
|
|
Salty Craig
Member
|
# Posted: 9 Jul 2015 06:40pm
Reply
creeky
I'm enjoying this dialogue. And yes, I am smart. Frogs only populate one way. They mate with each other and nature does the rest. Same applies to people.
If a change in River current will mess things up, then a tree falling into the water from natural causes will do the same? No my friend. The tree in the water is only a hindrance to a kayaker. All of nature rejoices.
If nature was so fragile, then a flood shifting the boulders around on the bottom would screw up the "natural" flow of the water and the river would be ruined.
If nature was so fragile, then the lightning strike that burns the entire forest to the ground would forever throw things out of balance.
If nature was so fragile, then a tornado would spin the earth out of orbit and we would spiral out of control thru space until we collided with a star. Game over.
Here's where I think we differ:
I believe the earth is not a random product of chance but a magnificent creation. I believe that nature was strategically designed and is working exactly as intended.
Can man mess this up? Yes
Could a trillion bridge pilings mess this up? No
|
|
Timber Tramp
Member
|
# Posted: 12 Aug 2015 02:29am
Reply
I'm almost afraid to check into the treehugger site.
All I know, is that if you want trees you have to cut trees, just like if you want carrots you have to weed your garden. It's just like every other vegetated matter. The key is intense management, however we have so much, management is still in it's infancy.
The only redeeming factor is that it is growing faster than we can cut it down.
It's just that the quality and the size of the timber has suffered.
Siberia still has more untouched timber than all the continental U.S. combined.
The new green is now brown up here in the Yukon due to beetle kill and wildfire, but it has greened up fast as a result.
|
|
Timber Tramp
Member
|
# Posted: 12 Aug 2015 02:39am
Reply
If I came across as a timber terrorist that wasn't my plan.
We need to not only preserve, we need to conserve. There is a big difference between the two.
|
|
Don_P
Member
|
# Posted: 12 Aug 2015 07:43am - Edited by: Don_P
Reply
You've gotta weed any garden . I try to practice "worst first", we have generations of "take the best and leave the rest", high grading, which has made a mess of the current forest. The deer population here has been selecting as well, munching on the trees they like, which is the same timber I want to foster, and leaving low quality weedy trees and exotics in the woods. When I'm in the woods with a saw those trash trees come out in the hopes of opening up opportunities for the better trees. A saw is, or can be, a management tool. It is disheartening to drive up on a jobsite with a pile of excellent timber pushed into a burn pile and then to go to the lumberyard to buy generic trim and cabinets from thousands of miles away. I had to chew on my supplier yesterday, he sent eurotrash framing out, the stuff isn't up to our minimal strength requirements. He said it was all he could get, the only reply I could give him was "well, you're out of lumber then". I'm taking lumber standards and codebook in for an education session this morning.
It isn't coming up for me right now but try to look at this link;
https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/felling/cuts/special_techniques.html
There should be a section on bore cutting, a safe way to fell larger trees. I use it on any tree that will accept the bore cut. I've been launched 20' into the air with a running saw when a white oak barber chaired. Luckily it only broke a rib, we're bugs to a tree.
|
|
creeky
Member
|
# Posted: 12 Aug 2015 10:41am
Reply
thx for that link Don_P. It opened for me and I learned quite a bit about how not to hurt myself felling trees.
I wedged a big tree last year ... it only took 3 days for it to fall. Now I have some new techniques to use. (Like making a bigger notch to start with ...)
|
|
NorthRick
Member
|
# Posted: 12 Aug 2015 04:28pm
Reply
There is a book called To Fell a Tree, I think it is a must have for amateur tree fallers. Myself included.
|
|
Timber Tramp
Member
|
# Posted: 12 Aug 2015 09:56pm
Reply
Barberchair is a very violent, fast and dangerous thing, but it's causes are from two simple mistakes. Criscross cuts in the undercut (dutchman) and or a saw that cuts to slow. When you place the undercut make sure the cuts meet evenly with no overbit. Its much like swinging a cupboard door when done right. Bore cuts and wedging also have their place.
In the pic below the tree was windthrown and limb bound and shattered already, so I had to sever it as best as possible and pull it sideways with a skidder so that itdidn't pull down the tree it was hung up in.
|
|
jrbarnard
Member
|
# Posted: 13 Aug 2015 08:57am
Reply
I, for one, have found there is more money in subsidies. Last year, I did not plant at least 20 acres of crops. I made about 20% more than the year before.
Next year I am thinking of expanding my operations and not planting about 80 more acres.
At this rate, I can be a billionaire in no time...
ok... I was teasing... in case anyone did not get that.
I am bored, half asleep.. and this is all I have.
Russ
|
|
| . 1 . 2 . >> |
