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FishHog
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2021 12:06pm
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Quoting: snobdds Trying to dial in the proper temperature by playing with the flow and flame setting at the unit, and then just running that one line to the shower is not smart. You get temp swings if the unit senses the water is too hot.
I'm glad your system works for you, but I'll have to disagree with the above. That is exactly how I do it with no issues, my unit has no sensors and mixing valves are hard to winterize.
I really don't see this as an issue. I maybe adjust my temp once a week or so and then don't touch it. If feed water temp doesn't change, there is no need to adjust anything
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snobdds
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2021 12:25pm
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You have internal sensor to the unit.
There are flame sensor and water temp sensors.
How else would it know what the temperature is and how long to run the flame?
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paulz
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2021 12:56pm - Edited by: paulz
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Quoting: snobdds Then I turn my unit, a marey propane unit with battery ignition, all the way up.
Hmm, I'm going to try that tonight. My indoor shower is also plumbed with hot and cold valves, but I have been using the outdoor shower head that comes right out of the heater, no cold, and I adjust the temp as I shower, and it gets left at that setting. No problem though to turn it up and down as needed.
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FishHog
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2021 01:07pm
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Quoting: snobdds You have internal sensor to the unit. There are flame sensor and water temp sensors. How else would it know what the temperature is and how long to run the flame?
The basic Eccotemp units many have don't have those sensors. There is a dial to change the flame level just like a stove top and a dial to change the water flow volume. Either of those two things can affect the temp of your water.
The only sensor involved is a flow sensor which is a safety item to shut the unit down if there is no water flow. Otherwise these units a just very simple, but very effective.
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TranquilMan
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2021 01:10pm
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Quoting: ICC I know what I can do with 6 gallons of heated water.
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TranquilMan
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2021 01:25pm
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ICC, I have thought of using a small propane water tank and might still revert to that. I have a few questions. Wondering what you use to supply water to the tank and do you screen, filter or treat the source water? In my case I'm using a 12 VDC Shurflo and small pressure tank down slope at a lake. A 6 gallon tan (assuming USG) is about 22 L. Have you measured flow rates at your shower head? I'm wondering how many minutes of shower time my wife will have till the tank is drained. If I stay 10 days then te burner maintaining a warm tank will be active for 10 days 24/7. That is a lot more propane than an on demand unit. I'm remote boat access off-grid so have to haul everything 30 km on the water. I have a friend that has a small place with similar issues. He has a small electric tank that he warms up each day with his generator. Once warm he shuts it down and it does him for the day. A bit of a nuisance though. Just wondering if there are any other downsides to a small water tank vs on demand?
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FishHog
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2021 01:56pm
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Just FYI if the on demand delay is a real issue for you (I don't find it to be but my run from the heater to the shower head is pretty short so its not that long), in my camper van I have limited water and don't want to waste any.
I took a 3 way shower valve that you use to switch from a shower head to a hand held head. Put it on my shower head (before the spray nozzle). The other line off it it runs back to my water tank.
I let the water recirculate back to the tank until I have warm water at the head (you can just feel it get warm with your hand), then turn the valve and shower.
That way I'm not wasting any water, and even though we still navy shower, you can run it for a bit after you shut it off to soap up and get rid of that hot water slug you get as well.
It works very well and since we only carry 20gal in the van, I don't want to waste any. I don't bother with that in the cabin as were on a lake and refilling my water tank isn't a big deal and not worth saving a liter or 2 of water when we shower.
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ICC
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2021 02:45pm
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TranquilMan, the cabin is remote, no well, so everything, water and propane is hauled with a 4X4. 100 gallons of water in a tank and propane in 40 pound cylinders.
Water is stored in an underground cistern; 325 US gallons. I have a Rule inline sumersible bilge pump in the bottom of the cistern. That pumps water to a 15 gallon poly tank meant for RV water storage. That tank is in the cabinet base under the kitchen counter.
I have used a similar water return system as
I use some electronics I bought to provide a cistern water level by way of red, amber, green led's. Another circuit turns the cistern pump on and off as the level in the under counter tank rises and falls. All is 12 VDC plwered.
I use a Shurflo RV pressure pump to supply water to the kitchen and bathroom sinks. That is plumbed just as an RV is but without the streetside pressurized inlet portion.
I use a very low flow shower head. I forget the GPM rate, but it was one of the better ones. I can do a shower easily with 2 gallons total. My wife, with with more hair, uses more; maybe 6 gallons.
The present water heater is one of the direct ignition , 12 VDV, types. No pilot light. Once the tank of water is hot I can elect to turn off the burner. The extra insulation retains the heat quite well. Most of the time I do not bother. I have not metered the propane use but it does seem to last a satisfactory time.
The original RV water heater in the cabin was a pilot light version. It had to be replaced after 15 years due to a leak. It was insulated with extra foam as well. With that tank, once the water was hot, I set the burner control to pilot only. The pilot kept the tank hot enough for virtually all our use that way.
I don't know which is more efficient. But we have been happy with both.
I have used a similar system for conserving water as FishHog. There are valves installed at the shower and bathroom sink that allow water from the hot side to be recycled back to the under counter tank. When hot water reaches the diverter valve, the valve is closed. Then there is only 12 inches or so of cool water in the piping that has to reach the shower head before the hot reaches it. No waste.
FWIW, I used 3/8" pipe and pex tubing to also reduce the volume of water in the pipes. Probably overkill but I did it. For our purposes in the cabin, as well as the RV/bus 3/8†works fine.
For conservation of water I also have a drain line from the supply tank under the counter back to the cistern so when we winterize the water is retained not dumped. For the same reason the water heater is one that has the option to use a 130 VAC heating element. In an RV that saves propane when AC power is available. At the cabin there is no grid pwer, but the use of the dual fuel water heater provided the opportuinty to use one of the threaded ports for the anode rod and the other for a drain valve and hose to also allow return of the 6 gallons in the heater tank to the cistern, without the use of tools.
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snobdds
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2021 02:58pm
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Quoting: FishHog The basic Eccotemp units many have don't have those sensors.
I have taken one apart, they most definitely have a flame and water temperature sensor.
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snobdds
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2021 03:21pm
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Flame sensor
https://www.eccotemp.com/i12-flame-sensor/
water temp sensor
https://sdsmarket.com/products/eccotemp-19880011-45-series-outlet-water-temperature-s ensor?variant=39803363918000&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=bing&utm_campaign=All%20produc ts%20Shopping%20Ads&msclkid=96ba8f3db9e41aaf2451ee441f92d977&utm_term=458235216477186 7&utm_content=All%20Products%20Campaign%20Shopping%201&gclid=
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FishHog
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2021 04:10pm
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Maybe that unit, but not mine.
To be 100% accurate there in an overtemp sensor, but that is just a kill switch, does nothing for adjustment, and a water flow sensor, but again just a kill switch for safety reasons.
The fancier units might have those things, the basic ones don't.
Not trying to argue, I'm sure the one you have taken apart has them, I too have taken mine apart like many people we have the basic units that do not have any built in adjustments for temp, they are just a manual setting that adjusts flame or water flow.
Lower flame is colder, higher water is colder and vice versa.
I know there are fancier units, but the basic ones are not "smart" units.
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TranquilMan
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2021 04:52pm
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Thanks for all the useful information. Interesting thread. This has the wheels in my head turning.
We started this remote off-grid cabin experience 28 years ago. My wife wasn't sure about it because of the 35 km (22 mi) boat ride. But that's how far you have to go to avoid the yahoo's and noise.
I love a warm shower after crawling around an old cabin or clearing trails in the bush. One of my first projects was an outdoor shower in a cedar grove up a slight rise about 60 ft. from the cabin. I put a 375 L (100 US Gal) black poly tank on top for gravity feed to the cabin. I have a 20 L (5.3 Gal) carboy with a cheap shower head that I hoist into a cradle at head height. I like my shower to be 43 deg C (109 F). To get that, I found that if I heat 10 L on the propane stove to almost boil, pour it in, carry it up, then top it up with water from the overhead tank - it's perfect. I rigged the shower head to give me 2 L/min so up to 10 minutes of pleasure with a hot shower, a cold beer and my radio.
Then I found a Trailwood on-demand propane water heater on a season-end clearance table for $50. It has a flow sensor that kicks in a low pressure. I calculated that I had about 2 psi at the heater from the overhead tank. It worked! A year later I found another one for $70 year end clearance. I was getting about 3 seasons on a 20 pound propane cylinder. But now after about 5 years neither work very well and nothing is worse than the heater failing once you are all shampooed. So now I'm back to heating 10 L on the stove.
Anyway, my priority problem now is the indoor shower with the L5 heater my wife uses that has the flow temperature issues. With the boat now put away, I have all winter to think this over so thanks for the comments.
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paulz
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2021 05:51pm
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Just read this:
Setting the Temperature On Your L5
Figuring out how to get the best use and temperature out of the L5 is pretty simple, but we are here to help you understand just how to set the temperature on your portable tankless water heater.
If you are wanting REALLY HOT water: Turn the Gas knob on the left all the way to MAX and turn the Water knob on the right closer to MIN. (The slower the water goes through the heat exchanger, the hotter it will be.
If you are wanting to LOWER the temperature, you will need to turn the Gas knob more towards the MIN and move the Water knob more to the left, closer to the MAX setting. (The more flow of water and lower gas flow will provide you with a cooler temperature).
So if I want to use both hot and cold faucets in my shower I want the gas knob on max and water knob on min, but that slows down the water going through it says. I don't want to impede what the pump is capable of, want a decent water flow. Will this setting limit the throughput?
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snobdds
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2021 06:09pm
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Quoting: paulz So if I want to use both hot and cold faucets in my shower I want the gas knob on max and water knob on min, but that slows down the water going through it says. I don't want to impede what the pump is capable of, want a decent water flow. Will this setting limit the throughput?
It will have a hot water flow issue. That is why you need a unit that has a higher GPM rating.
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ICC
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2021 06:16pm - Edited by: ICC
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And that is why, for my remote cabin, I like the RV water heater. No need to fusswith flow settings or burner settings, or temperature of incoming water, etc.
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snobdds
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2021 06:21pm - Edited by: snobdds
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Quoting: FishHog Maybe that unit, but not mine. To be 100% accurate there in an overtemp sensor, but that is just a kill switch, does nothing for adjustment, and a water flow sensor, but again just a kill switch for safety reasons.
L5 Temp sensor, flame sensor
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snobdds
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2021 06:30pm
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Quoting: ICC And that is why, for my remote cabin, I like the RV water heater. No need to fusswith flow settings or burner settings, or temperature of incoming water, etc.
I agree. The same thing can be achieved by buying a properly sized unit and turning up the temp to max and using the mixing valve as the temperature regulation.
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FishHog
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2021 06:38pm - Edited by: FishHog
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Computer board and fan? We are clearing talking two different versions
I have no idea what that version is but it sure isn’t my battery operated ignition propane unit
There sure isn’t those things in mine
Anyway I’m glad your method and system works for you. That is what is important
And mine with no computer boards fans or sensors works great for me.
This is the dumb version I have.
I didn’t realize they made smart versions
Sorry for the confusion
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ICC
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2021 06:40pm
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Quoting: snobdds using the mixing valve as the temperature regulation
Modern mixing valves work exceptionally well at temperature regulation.
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snobdds
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2021 06:45pm - Edited by: snobdds
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Quoting: FishHog Computer board and fan? We are clearing talking two different versions
I still don't know what unit you have, but the battery pack gave me a better clue.
https://support.eccotemp.com/hc/en-us/articles/115012771707-L5-Diagram-of-Parts
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FishHog
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2021 06:49pm
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Quoting: ICC Modern mixing valves work exceptionally well at temperature regulation.
That they do but they are impossible to drain so if you need to winterize you need to run antifreeze into them or they freeze and break
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snobdds
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2021 06:56pm
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Quoting: FishHog That they do but they are impossible to drain so if you need to winterize you need to run antifreeze into them or they freeze and break
I just open up all the faucets, and put 50psi of air through the system.
All the water comes out the faucets and I'm done in 5 minutes.
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paulz
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2021 07:09pm
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OK so first I went outside to the showerhead that comes right off the L5. Turning the water knob from Min to Max did increase the flow, so I put both knobs on Max and went inside for a shower. I don't have a mixing valve, two separate valves. Turned the hot all the way on, too hot as expected, turned the cold on, and on, and on. Even all the way open still too hot. Turned the hot down, and down, and down, all the way to off before it cooled down. So I guess I need to turn the gas down from Max next time.
I checked my flow rate, first at the sink, 45 seconds for a gallon. Then at the shower head, both valves all the way open. 60 seconds for a gallon. My pump is the Flojet 3.2, pipe is 1/2 cpvc.
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ICC
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2021 07:20pm
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Quoting: snobdds I just open up all the faucets, and put 50psi of air through the system. All the water comes out the faucets and I'm done in 5 minutes
Same thing with me. I've done that with both the cabin and the RV/bus for decades. I have never had a pipe or valve of any kind freeze and get damaged except for a ball valve I on e left in closed position. It must have had water trapped in the rotary ball and the brass around the ball cracked. But I've lost a mixer nor has the cabin ever had antifreeze and the RV only rarely.
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FishHog
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2021 07:53pm
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Yeah compressor works too if you have one and the power to run it. I have neither so just kept everything simple.
All based on gravity. I open all my drains and let gravity do it’s job
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