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pedalsyndrome
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# Posted: 20 Jan 2020 04:19pm - Edited by: pedalsyndrome
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Hi everyone, new member here. I recently purchased an 18' x 24' cabin that is currently off-grid, although i plan to run electric to it. i've inquired about a well for water but that looks like it's going to be cost-prohibitive. the cabin is a weekend getaway for my family and not a primary residence. I'm leaning toward going with an above ground cistern instead of the well. since i'm in central ohio, the winter weather is something i have to take into account. Has anyone ever had any experience with installing cistern tanks indoors? I'm thinking of building an outbuilding close to my cabin that i'd heat to maybe 50 degrees or so through the winter months. as long as i place the tanks in a way that the water delivery truck can fill them, is there a downside to doing something like this? Photo of my cabin is attached.
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Irrigation Guy
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# Posted: 20 Jan 2020 04:27pm
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How much do wells cost in your area? And do you know how deep they have to go?
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pedalsyndrome
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# Posted: 20 Jan 2020 04:42pm
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I have incomplete information right now. i've called two well companies that for whatever reason haven't returned my calls. i heard from another cabin owner in the area that they received a quote that was about $10k with the explanation that they would have to drill 1000 ft. That sounded ridiculous to me, although we're at a higher elevation, so i don't know, maybe its possible. i still am planning on trying to find someone out to give me a quote, just not having a lot of luck so far. Maybe because it's winter. you would think i would at least get a call back though.
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Irrigation Guy
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# Posted: 20 Jan 2020 05:17pm
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Wow that’s deep. Tank could be a hold over but I am sure it will get old quick. If you went the tank route why not put it under your cabin and enclose it. Looks like you have plenty of room on one end.
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pedalsyndrome
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# Posted: 20 Jan 2020 05:29pm
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hadn't thought about that. that might not be a bad option. my main concern is just making sure that the tanks don't freeze in the winter. it might be a kooky thought, but i thought if i located it close enough to the cabin (or now maybe under) i could actually put a vent from the cabin to the enclosure where the cistern is, using the heat from the cabin to also keep the cistern enclosure warm.
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SCSJeff
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# Posted: 20 Jan 2020 05:57pm
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If you're going to be running electric (and planning on keeping it on while not there), then you can also just get an electric tank heater... Maybe even partially bury it to help keep it warmer?
I would look into filling it with rain water too (instead of paying for water delivery).
For instance... my neighbor has (2) 100 gallon tanks that he fills with rainwater off his pavilion. He then uses his generator to pump from those into his 500 gallon storage tank in his basement. Maybe you could do the same with a large tank outside catching rain water (or periodic filling if you'd like) and then pump from that to a smaller tank inside that won't freeze?
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ICC
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# Posted: 20 Jan 2020 07:37pm
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What is the minimum delivery amount for water? Gallons? Dollars? And does that fit with the size of cistern you want?
You can get cisterns that are designed for burial. Some are "loaf" tanks, more or less rectangular in shape. Those usually must not be emptied; hey need 25% or so left in the tank to prevent collapse. There are also spherical shapes around 300 and 500 gallon sizes that can be pumped empty. Their shape prevents collapse. I guess your water table is low. Too high a water table make use of a buried tank impractical as they tend to float.
I have a friend here who has a pair of 500 gallon spheres buried under his cabin. Most of the tanks are deeper than frost depth and that helps keep it from freezing even without any auxillary heat. They do have insulation sheets above and part way down the sides, like an upside down box. Heat from deeper down rises, the insulation traps it and the water never falls below something like 50 F.
I'd give some thought to something like that. I don't like the idea of using energy for heat when absent for extended periods.
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Nobadays
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# Posted: 20 Jan 2020 10:14pm
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In our area of Colorado many of the folks put their cisterns under the cabin, but.... they have a perimeter insulated foundations. The water never freezes under there. It would maybe be possible to skirt and insulate the perimeter and accomplish the same thing.
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pedalsyndrome
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# Posted: 21 Jan 2020 08:35am
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Quoting: SCSJeff If you're going to be running electric (and planning on keeping it on while not there), then you can also just get an electric tank heater... Maybe even partially bury it to help keep it warmer?
Thanks everyone for the ideas. These are great. SCSJeff, I like the idea of a tank heater. I'll probably start by looking into one of those.
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pedalsyndrome
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# Posted: 21 Jan 2020 08:38am
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Quoting: ICC What is the minimum delivery amount for water? Gallons? Dollars? And does that fit with the size of cistern you want?
I'm still considering tank size, so i'm not sure yet on the tank. I know there's a balance of having too big for your water usage. The only reason i'm opting slightly toward the above ground tank is accessibility i guess. I also have considered gathering rain water. That said, water delivery in the area is pretty cheap, so we'll see. probably would be something i'd add on a little later.
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SE Ohio
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# Posted: 21 Jan 2020 12:00pm
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Pedal syndrome,
In our neck of the woods, frost line is 30†or so, based on winter of 77-78 when we sat at 25 below for a while. If your buried tank Water pickup is below this depth, you can get water even if you have ice on top of tank- I plan to bury a 55 gallon plastic barrel and use a (freeze proof) pitcher pump to get water to my kitchen sink. From there I can heat water on my propane range. No bursting pipe worries, and I don’t have to heat an empty cabin!
Many winters here the ground doesn’t freeze below a few inches...
SE Ohio
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ICC
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# Posted: 21 Jan 2020 02:26pm
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Do an online search for "Rule IL pumps". They make several with part numbers like IL 200, IL280, IL500. They are a small cylindrical shape. They come in 12 VDC and 24 VDC versions. Some have a continuous duty rating. The specs list how high they can push water and the flow rate at different heads. As far as I know none of the IL series have a backflow foot valve. That is good. Drop one into an underground tank. IIRC they use a 1/2" tube that connects to the exit end. The intake end has a screen.
If you install the pipe or tube at an angle and use the pump to transfer water from the in-ground cistern to a supply tank in the cabin, with an air gap at the upper end, the pipe will hen drain back into the cistern. If the cistern is deep enough or has the upper part of the cistern insulated as I previously mentioned, There will be no freezing problem. Myself and friends have done this in a few locations here in the NM mountains.
Incidentally the Rule IL series pumps can be used for fresh or saltwater as well as being safe for diesel or kerosene. NOT gasoline.
Be aware that if the top of the tank freezes you may need to provide a separate air vent line in case the ice does not fracture as water is pumped out.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 22 Jan 2020 03:49pm
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I would do below ground plastic tank. Do it once and it's protected with out any input from you or the grid.
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FishHog
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# Posted: 22 Jan 2020 05:49pm
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Don’t forget drain lines. Mine don’t have traps but I’ve froze them up during a week of -30C weather. Now I flush them with hot water before showering to avoid that.
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SCSJeff
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# Posted: 22 Jan 2020 08:26pm
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Regarding completely buried tanks...
I don't have one and never have so take this for what it is 
1) May not want to pay for machine to dig hole...
2) In the OPs case, not sure how you could easily dig a hole under the cabin after the fact (See #1)
3) How do you easily see the water level?
4) How do you easily drain & clean it out periodically?
5) I would image it would be harder to do maintenance
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pedalsyndrome
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# Posted: 22 Jan 2020 09:52pm
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For those of you with buried tanks, I have a few of the same questions. How do you know the water level and isn't it harder to clean periodically? I definitely like the idea of not needing to heat the tank so I'm intrigued.
Also as a new member to the forum, thanks to everyone for the great conversation. In some forums you just seem to often get a combination of sarcasm and unhelpful answers. Everyone here has been super helpful !
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ICC
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# Posted: 23 Jan 2020 12:14am
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Water level. Let'spreface this with the statement, "I tinker with electronics"
Have you ever had an RV with a water system level guage? Usually those have three or four led's, low to high. Water conducts electricity. Operating on 12 or 24 volts and very low milliamp levels (completely safe) they have a series of contacts that complete circuits when covered with water. Some electronics takes that and turns led's on. They use a momentary contact switch as a rule so the device is only powered when you want to know the level.
You could buy a system made for an RV. There are also sellers on ebay and chinese sites that sell the circuit boards.
In an RV the contact points often penetrate the hull of the tank. I hate to drill holes in the sides, just in case something goes awry. So I made mine using a plastic dip tube that is dropped through the top opening of the tank and held in place by some straps I installed. The are brass bolts (8-32 thread) through the pvs tube at different heights, with one at the very bottom that is used to complete the height loops.
For a few years I also used an actual dipstick that was marked with gallons available at different levels. Like the old dipsticks we used back in the 60's for underground fuel tanks. Maybe they still use those; dead reliable if messy/smelly.
There are also various float switches that can be used to trip and indicate levels.
I like the electronic gizmos I have. I have several underground cisterns and all are equipped with the sensors and are hardwired to a panel in the utility room along with the solar stuff. A search on ebay should find some of the circuit boards; most come direct from China, India or Thailand IIRC. They can run for years on a single 9 volt battery when only used occasionally.
Cleaning: The rainwater that goes into the cisterns goes through filters, etc. So it is pretty much clear of sediment. I use chlorine for an initial treatment and add over the time water is stored as necessary, going by testing for ppm.
Being underground in complete darkness I have never had any issues with algae or other unwanted stuff growing in the tanks. I did rinse one of the underground cisterns once just to see how much work it would be. I used a high capacity (fire) pump to blast water in from the inspection cover and an second of the same to draw the water out. The little bit of sediment that was present was stirred up and most of it removed by the high capacity pump.
I have never done that again as it has not seemed necessary. In part it depends on how clean the water you put into the tank is. A friend uses water from his well at home to fill the twin cisterns at his cabin. He filters it through a cartridge type sediment filter and says the tanks under the cabin stay quite clean.
All my cisterns have access hatches and some of the later installations also have been fitted with low voltage waterproof underwater lighting to make it easier to have a look. That's probably overkill but I like gadgets and tech stuff. I've thought of installing a camera but have not gone that far as there doesn't really seem to be any need.
My board is similar to this one I found on ebay.. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Liquid-Level-Controller-Module-Water-Level-New-Detection-Sen sor/131369974426?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D201902121023 50%26meid%3D3fcf6df248864c4187e7249c1c12643e%26pid%3D100012%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D12%26meh ot%3Dag%26sd%3D251743486374%26itm%3D131369974426%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675&_ trksid=p2047675.c100012.m1985
You can see it has a red-yellow-green led to indicate low-med-full.
There are simple boards to control pumps as water levels change. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Water-Liquid-Level-Controller-Sensor-Module-Drainage-Protect -Circuit-Board-9-12V/332911155500?epid=577376493&hash=item4d830d192c:g:EYMAAOSwn1FZp7 38 I have a similar thing I made up that automates transfer of water from one tank to another. You could use something like that to control transferring water from the buried cistern to the ready-use tank up in the cabin
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ICC
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# Posted: 23 Jan 2020 03:59pm
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I have also seen someplace, don't recall where) a system that used a float inside the tank and some kind of an external indicator (rotating arrow on a dial; like a watch face ???) with some sort of mechanism to transfer the vertical float motion to a rotary indicator. Maybe someone else will remember seeing that?
And here is a very easy to build circuit
https://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-Simple-Water-Level-Indicator-With-Water-Flow-S/
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Brettny
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# Posted: 23 Jan 2020 10:00pm
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How big of a tank and frost levels are all things to consider if your going to burry a tank.
If something small like 55gal and you had a friend to help I would hand dig that...depending on soil.
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moneypitfeeder
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# Posted: 26 Jan 2020 06:50pm
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1000 ft sounds really deep, you can check to see the approximate depth to groundwater via the maps in this link (for OH) http://water.ohiodnr.gov/maps/groundwater-resources-maps
If it isn't really 1000 ft down, you might be able to do a sandpoint well.
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Irrigation Guy
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# Posted: 26 Jan 2020 07:34pm
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Depending on what tank you use you could probably use an oil tank level gauge. Might be easier than messing with electronics if that’s not your thing. They are tapped 2†pipe thread.
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LittleDummerBoy
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# Posted: 29 Jan 2020 12:29pm
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Put a 55 gal plastic drum over your wood stove (Bonus: install a fire suppressing sprinkler head over stove).
Put a couple rain catchment drums outside. Pump water around as needed.
A plastic 55 gal. drum of water, lying on its side with an 8" airspace, will not break if it freezes.
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