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SCSJeff
Member
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# Posted: 13 May 2019 01:45pm
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Jebediah,
Will's videos are what I found that swayed me towards lithium also (especially his 12v DIY build)
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CabinBuilder
Admin
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# Posted: 13 May 2019 03:12pm
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Li is still too overpriced comparing to Led, in my opinion.
I understand its benefits, but can't justify the price difference, ~x5.
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SCSJeff
Member
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# Posted: 13 May 2019 05:41pm
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CabinBuilder,
That's where I was with starting this thread... And, honestly, may still be there when push comes to shove and I actually have to replace my battery bank. But, if I can plan for it, I'll go lithium
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 13 May 2019 10:07pm
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Quoting: CabinBuilder can't justify the price difference, ~x5.
Care to prove that?
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 16 May 2019 01:58pm
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I'm using FLA (Rolls Surette S550's) right now and it's okay but have kept an eye on Lithium & Alternates and the prices have dropped remarkably over the last few years and still falling, even with increasing demand from the EV Industry, which will take it's toll on the market.
For off-gridder's / Cabineer's we do not necessarily need/want/afford the big buck Lithium Solutions but upcycling EV Batteries or using other means is perfectly fine in most cases. Not everyone needs the latest shiny blingy what's it, regardless of cost.
The "non-mobile" market is somewhat different & as seen in Europe & Elsewhere, many companies are recycling EV Batteries into "Power Storage" packages for various purposes. These include EV Charge Stations to Off-Grid uses and more. Non EV use does not require the same design specs as mobile use which simplifies & lowers costs.
LifePO4 Also has it's place in Home Storage and at a considerably lower cost. Unfortunately due to current "political stupidity" not all areas have equal access to all things good.
EXAMPLE: A LifePO Power-wall system. (made in China, using Cells from CATL)
https://www.yiyen.com/product/battery-energy-storage-system-ess/
Now if you want a Tesla Powerwall or other Big Name German or ??? Power Pack, well you pay the big bucks !
BTW: The Inverter/Charger (AP Series) I use comes from them and it's been a champ and having opened it up to look deeply at the electronic (retired eng) the quality is very good, especially for the price.
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rockies
Member
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# Posted: 16 May 2019 07:31pm
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Why not try salt water batteries?
http://www.bluesky-energy.eu/en/greenrock-saltwater-energy-storage/
http://solarfuturepro.dk/assets/greenrock-saltwater-ess.pdf
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rockies
Member
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# Posted: 16 May 2019 07:38pm
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A good article on common mistakes made regarding solar PV systems.
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/ten-mistakes-ive-made-selling-and-instal ling-battery-storage-systems
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 17 May 2019 10:16am
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Rockies. Salt water is not suitable for off grid. Nor really home energy storage. The kicker is the very low discharge/charge rate.
Steve. Those yiyen look really good. For anyone using or planning on LifePo4. Remember, you MUST use a BMS. Lifepo can be wilder on cell voltage fluctuation vs NMC or ...
The CATL battery is (according to the web) second only to Winston. And the number of cycles is so far up from 5-6 years ago. We are very lucky.
There are some great Lifepo suppliers on Ebay. Look for cells that are in the US and tested. You might pay a little more, but it will be a better deal.
Some really nice developments in terms of BMS options too. A couple of good options from China means lower costs and fancier installs (blinking lights!)
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 17 May 2019 01:37pm - Edited by: Steve_S
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@creeky, if you read the info on YiYen re their LifePO4 battery packs, they have a BMS with it...
There are others who make LifePO4 Batteries with internal BMS that mimicks FLA profiles... I did make enquiries @ https://relionbattery.com regarding that and the "Techie" I talked to could not even do basic / simple math... Simple enough as in : What is the equivalent Li-Ion battery pack to my 8x Rolls Surette S-550 configured in a 24V series/parallel ? Answer was, contact Rolls ! DUH = NO SALE !
Now Battle Born batteries @ https://battlebornbatteries.com/ are considerably more helpful & informative and the Techs actually know stuff ! NB: They have a good deal & partnership with Victron ! AND with the current sale on "100Ah 12V GC2 LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Battery
$1,049.00 (USD)" is not a bad deal but there may be better deals out there. ** Just noticed that my supplier sells these @ $1,198.00 CAD
In regards to Salt Water Batteries, I strongly disagree with your comment Creeky, they are viable working alternatives for non-mobile applications, even the US Army & Marines use them as well as several remote utilities... IMO, the military rarely uses anything unsuitable for a hard existence.
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rockies
Member
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# Posted: 17 May 2019 07:12pm - Edited by: rockies
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Creeky, the reason I mention salt water batteries is that these batteries were selected by the winning entry for the recent Solar Decathlon competition.
The Solar Decathlon is a design/build event held every two years in which teams of students at Architectural Universities all over the world (led by their instructors) design and build a small home using the very best construction methods, products and services available.
Each home has to be under 1000 sq' and be completely off-grid as to water supply, sewage, and electrical usage. Needless to say, each team spends a tremendous amount of time in researching which products to use - and typically only use proven technology.
If salt water batteries are the best off grid batteries that they can find then that's good enough for me.
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Brettny
Member
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# Posted: 19 May 2019 08:31am
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Quoting: CabinBuilder Li is still too overpriced comparing to Led, in my opinion. I understand its benefits, but can't justify the price difference, ~x5.
When you compair golf cart batterys to new "offgrid" lithium batterys i would say you could be close.
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CabinBuilder
Admin
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# Posted: 20 May 2019 10:11pm - Edited by: CabinBuilder
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Quoting: creeky Quioting: CabinBuilder
can't justify the price difference, ~x5.Care to prove that?
* Flooded led-acid: 6V ~220Ah deep-cycle golf cart batteries : $90-120. Two gives you 220Ah @ 12V, for ~$220, i.e. ~$1/Ah @ 12V
* Li-Ion: 12V 100Ah, for ~$450-500+, i.e. ~$5/Ah @ 12V
References: Costco, Amazon, battery suppliers on www, etc.
Again - talking about price difference only.
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 21 May 2019 03:05pm
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Quoting: CabinBuilder * Flooded led-acid: 6V ~220Ah deep-cycle golf cart batteries : $90-120. Two gives you 220Ah @ 12V, for ~$220, i.e. ~$1/Ah @ 12V * Li-Ion: 12V 100Ah, for ~$450-500+, i.e. ~$5/Ah @ 12V
A small detail forgotten in this "investment" in Batteries, is the lifespan of the batteries and amount of DOD that you can safely go.
For example, I paid out 8x$345 for Rolls Surette S-550 (6v, 428Ah @ 20hrs) which gives me a 24V Bank with 856Ah & 20kWh storage . This allows me to use 10kwh / 429Ah to 50%DOD. That's $2760 Before Taxes for 10kWh - 428Ah @ 24V
Lithiums like LifePO4 can safely go to 85% DOD while LiIon can go 100% DOD.
BattleBorn 100Ah 12V LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Battery are on sale ATM for $949.00 USD ($1149 in Canada) When it comes down to it, LifePO4's make sense now, especially because they will last easily twice as long. Other's can be had cheaper but you get what you pay for eh !
REF: https://battlebornbatteries.com/shop/12v-lifepo4-deep-cycle-battery/
Here is a good Battery Comparison Table between MANY different Batteries from Integrated Power Systems in BC Canada which is quite an eye opener !
See Here: http://ipwr.net/lead-carbon-battery-comparisons/
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 21 May 2019 04:56pm
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For small systems, using 2 or 4, even 8 if for a 24-volt system, golf cart lead-acid batteries, I can still understand the attractiveness of the lead-acid GC-2's especially when they are purchased at Costco or Sam's Club. Those fit into a small budget. They have great prices, hard to match let alone beat anywhere else. Given a little care, keeping the fluid levels up and NOT discharging them too deeply, and used in a part-time cabin they can last 8 to 9 years. Not at all bad. Of course, they must be watered, kept clean, etc. I love lithium, but can relate well to those who have trouble coming up with large $$ amounts at one time when they have other things that need buying as well. There was a time I had truble filling the gas tank and that was before gasoline was over a couple dollars a gallon.
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rockies
Member
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# Posted: 21 May 2019 08:03pm
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Some more info on Saltwater batteries.
http://www.bluesky-energy.eu/en/2018/08/02/cost-comparison-of-battery-storage/
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 21 May 2019 09:08pm - Edited by: ICC
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Notice they mention all the good points and skate around the limitations; they don't mention the rather restrictive maximum discharge rate or recharge rate? Their batteries come in 24 or 48 volt versions, both the same capacity of 2.7 KwH, as decent enough capacity. They are the same number of cells just wired differently. However, one battery has a maximum discharge rate of 960 watts; 8 amps at 24 volts or 4 amps at 48 volts. The maximum charge rate has the same limit. To me that is a big problem; doesn't matter how many cycles they are good for. You would need to have several of their batteries in parallel to get the current discharge rate many people require. Like me.
There is another page of theirs that notes the charge and discharge rates
http://www.bluesky-energy.eu/en/salt-water-battery-aib-technology/
Creeky mentioned that in a post here someplace. Maybe that was missed by some, or the significance not thought out?
I was interested in the Aquion batteries several years ago. But they had a maximum 1000 watt rate for only 5 minutes, after that they were about 400 watts IIRC. Ya' gotta look at all the specs and see how that will affect your use. I believe they went into Chapter 11 bankruptcy a couple of years ago. Have no idea what happened after that.
They do have some advantages but the low discharge rate killed the idea for me. Perhaps my type of use is more demanding that some simple part time cabin users. Lithium easily supplies the needed KwH discharge rate and also charges fast.
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rockies
Member
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# Posted: 21 May 2019 10:04pm
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Aquion's assets were bought by Bluesky.
So, in looking through the battery comparison chart posted by Steve_S which battery would be the best one?
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SCSJeff
Member
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# Posted: 1 Sep 2020 07:51pm
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Hey all,
Thought I'd come around and let everyone know I bit the bullet and bought (1) Battleborn 100AH. 
Set it up as a mobile setup using the Anderson Connectors that I can take back and forth with me. I've used it once so far at the cabin to run our freezer (fridge conversion) for 3 days and it worked beautifully! I don't have it hooked up to solar yet. So I also bought a 10A Noko lithium compatible charger and was really impressed how quickly it charged back up.
My plan now is to decommission the FLA setup in my shed and eventually either purchase another BB or some other brand 200AH LifePo4 to setup permanently inside the cabin. This way, I can heat the cabin in the winter before charging. In addtion, my inverter will be happier not running below Xantrex's recommended operating range 
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 2 Sep 2020 11:02am
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WOW... much has updated since May.
Well, I am about to decomission my FLA (856AH gross) in favour of 910AH LFP (LiFePo4). Maybe some info here will help others see the LFP options now available.
I built two 24V/280AH 8S "Block Format" packs and two 24V/175AH 8S straight packs.
The final rendition of the summer long build experiements came out as such:
Each pack has a Chargery BMS8T-300 BMS with 300A shunt, 300A DCC (Solid State Contactor).
Each pack will have a QNBBM 8S Active Balancer as well, as these larger capacity cells tend to wander much more.
To determine kWh, take simple this example:
100AH battery X 12 Volts = 1200Wh or 1.2kWh
100AH battery X 14.2V = 1420Wh or 1.4kWh
September Sales Special on Alibaba has also presented some amazing deals on LFP Cells. Couple of highlights: Grade-A EVE cells.
8 Pcs 3.2V 280Ah = $891.44 USD *
8 Pcs 3.2V 120Ah = $568.02 USD *
* = Delivered DDP (Duty Taxes Paid)
LINK to Vendor (Luyuan Tech)
https://szluyuan.en.alibaba.com/productlist.html
Chargery BMS8T: http://chargery.com/BMS8T.asp
Chargery DCC on main page http://chargery.com/
DCC Manual Link (PDF): http://chargery.com/doc/Chargery%20DC%20contactor%20manual%20V1.0.pdf
DeliGreen QNBBM Active Balancer: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/8S-LiFepo4-Lithium-Lipo-LTO-Battery_1600103959 074.html
Are LFP batteries safe or not ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzt9RZ0FQyM
Typical 24V 8S configurations:
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Notes
Member
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# Posted: 3 Sep 2020 10:46pm
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Steve, thanks for all the info and sharing your knowledge and experience on this subject.
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