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Nobadays
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# Posted: 21 Apr 2019 03:35pm
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Getting closer to the time we can get up to the cabin and install the solar equipment I have been collecting over the last few months.
I was able to pick up some very nice 245 watt Trina Solar panels for $50 each. They are take off panels from somewhere... supposed to be only 4-5 years old. What I do know for fact is all but 1 of 7 panels checks out at, or within 1-2 volts of original specs (the 1 panel is 4 volts shy) and amperage outputs to match.
For reasons I didn't quite understand the labels have all been removed... I was told that this prevents them for being used in grid-tie (no label, no UL stamp) but are perfectly okay for off-grid applications.
Here is the question... I found out I will need a permit and inspection. Before I panic that the inspector will reject my system because the panels are not labeled, does anyone (ICC) know if indeed as long as it is not grid-tied no labels are required. I realize insurance people could pose a different issue... but not worried about that.
Thank you!
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ICC
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# Posted: 21 Apr 2019 04:14pm - Edited by: ICC
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The NEC does state that all the hardware, must be UL or ETL labeled/approved. So a by-the-book inspector may decide not to accept them as apart of any system. But, it is also a judgment call; an inspector may decide to let items through; or not. For example, in my locality, the inspector generally allows auto battery cables or welding cable in small off-grid systems (as long as it it color coded properly, where by code they should not be allowed as they are not UL approved for battery cables. All the building code inspectors have some leeway in their calls.
Sometimes the inspectors are reluctant to pass non code approved items or practises as it could come back to bite them in the future if something goes wrong.
I asked a friend in the alt-energy design and installation business if he has any insight. No answer from him yet but I'll be back when I hear something.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 21 Apr 2019 04:37pm
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Ummmm didn't you say this was OFF GRID as in no Power Poles to your place ? I could see the Insurance Co's asking for an inspection but the Power Co has zippo to do with it, your not touching their stuff at all in any way.
As for the one flaky panel, likely has scratches or damaged cells from something. Don't use it ! Replace it with an identical or nearly identical spec unit but without labels might be hard to match up.
FYI labels being removed is dubious, these could be seconds or off-brands and it's not up to anyone BUT the Site Inspectors to decide if it's OK or not for Grid Attachment IF attaching to a grid.
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ICC
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# Posted: 21 Apr 2019 05:25pm
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Steve, code applies everywhere not just if a structure is attached to the power grid. Some locations are much more lax than others when it comes to all codes. But you are right in that inspectors have some leeway, but many do go by-the-book and don't budge at all. If what the inspector actually follows what is in the rule book they win.
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ICC
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# Posted: 21 Apr 2019 08:01pm - Edited by: ICC
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My friend says pretty much the same thing as me--- the inspector is the boss. Arguing with one has about the same effect as arguing with a state trooper on a traffic stop.
He added that he would not ever use unlabled panels on a roof, because there could be more danger from fire. If on the ground in a place where wildfires happen he said he would not like to use unlabeled panels either.
In any event fuse or CB all the strings if there are more than 2 parallel strings.
It does seem odd, or suspicious that the labels were removed. Maybe they never had UL labels because they are not approved--- maybe the labels had the specs but not the UL pr ETL mark?
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ICC
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# Posted: 21 Apr 2019 08:09pm - Edited by: ICC
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I have a vague memory of some solar place in FL selling non-approved panels a number of years ago.??? I think they had both approved and non-approved ones for sale at different prices.
Not having the UL mark on a panel label just means the mfg or company selling never paid for the testing process. Those could be the same panels as ones sold with the label. Whoever it is applying for UL approval has to pay a fee based on the number of units. But insurance companies will definitely cancel a policy or not honor it for any payments if they can see there are no labels and it looks like the panels caused the fire.
No solar rebate credits either w/o the appoved mark.
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Nobadays
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# Posted: 22 Apr 2019 01:53am
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Thank you so much for the replys!
These are take offs from some energy farm I think. They are definitely Trina Solar panels (molded into the plastic where the cables attach) and you can see where the labels were. Why they were removed had something to do with California laws if I understood correctly. These panels really do look new, even the one down a few volts.... no nicks, scratches, fading or discoloration.
Son in law and grandson are coming up to help put the panels on the roof.... I have one shot to get it right so better find some labeled panels.
Regardless, the same place has some used 250 watt Canadian Solar panels with almost identical VOC/AMP as the 245's I have for $70.... and they are labeled. I'll go take a look when we get home (in Scotland right now on the West Highland Way, rest day today)
Would love to find new panels at that price but doubt I can and the solar budget is spent already....
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creeky
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# Posted: 22 Apr 2019 09:10am
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No label means C grade. You see them now and again.
That yours had labels. Look for snail trails. Lots of the solar farms around here are removing older panels due to electron creep. Basically a failure of the glue they were using.
Like Steve said, I wouldn't put the mismatched panel in the array. Keep it for a waterpump or down by the dock panel.
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Nobadays
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# Posted: 22 Apr 2019 09:34am
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Thanks Creeky.... crazy thing is, this company sells new, used, B & C grade panels as well. These have no signs of age.... no snail grails, chips, nothing you would think these were new.... but alas, I will break down and buy some labeled panels from them. They are really good about letting you check the panels over before loading. I will take my volt ohm meter this time and get 6 matched panels.
I find uses for the 7 I have now.... wood shed, water pressure pump, trading stock...it's all good!
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Brettny
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# Posted: 22 Apr 2019 10:03am
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Get one good pannel that matches and use that until inspected. Then put the rest on.
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Nobadays
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# Posted: 22 Apr 2019 10:51am
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Brettny.... Boy has that crossed my mind!  if I could mount them myself I would just take a chance on them passing... I can't imagine an inspector crawling up on that roof to really look them over... my guess is if everything looks sound on the ground he ain't gonna get on the roof!
But..... since I will only go e shot at it.... kids live too far away get them back for a second go.... I will get UL labeled panels.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 22 Apr 2019 01:38pm
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I highly doubt your inspector is going to bring there own ladder so you could also not have one on site.
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ICC
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# Posted: 22 Apr 2019 02:13pm
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The inspectors I have dealt with for decades will climb ladders to inspect rooftop electrical; they do it when a homeowner replaces a rooftop swamp cooler with a rooftop refrigerated A/C. They will crawl through attics if there is something that should be inspected up there. Of course, that may vary. Some are lazy, the inspectors I have worked with tend to take the job seriously.
It occurred to me this morning that removing the labels may have something to do with tax credits. Panels used for federal tax credits (in the US) must be UL approved. IF the installation those panels are coming from received any sort of tax credits, there may be a requirement to remove at least the UL portion to help head off the possibility of another tax credit being applied for. Just a thought.
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Nobadays
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# Posted: 22 Apr 2019 03:08pm
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ICC.... The possibility is there that the inspector will climb the roof. But, it is a 12x12 pitch, metal roof and I know I or my son in law and grandson won't be up there without roping up. A fall would result in injury, if the east, west or south side, serious injury. My son in law is a certified high angle ropes instructor as well as a contractor, he is bringing the safety gear.... I don't have anything other than 2 ladders with roof hooks.
I doubt an inspector would go it alone though he is quite welcome to do so. I plan to do it right so no problem if he wants to take a look. I have talked to him in the past, nice guy, I plan to ask him if he has a problem with unlabeled panels before I buy new ones. I would rather be up front and straight with him, might save problems later on if I do more building.
Down the road I'm going to build a wooden ladder for access to both the panels (snow removal with a long pole) and for chimney cleaning that will stay on the roof.
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ICC
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# Posted: 22 Apr 2019 03:34pm
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Quoting: Nobadays I plan to ask him if he has a problem with unlabeled panels before I buy new ones. I would rather be up front and straight with him, might save problems later on if I do more building.
I have found the inspectors to be good to talk to up front like that. I think it shows that you care to do the task the right way and are not trying to pull the wool over their eyes. The local inspectors all (structure, electric, plumbing) are nice people when you get to know them, but when they find someone has been trying to slip something through, ... well then get very particular. At times they can be very busy, have a full day and don't have much time ti spend talking. But if you post the question directly the ones around me will always tell you if you will have a problem with whatever idea you have asked about.
Quoting: Nobadays ........wooden ladder for access to both the panels (snow removal with a long pole) and for chimney cleaning that will stay on the roof.
I have screwed short sections of aluminum angle stock across the roof ribs at 12"spacing to act as ladder rungs to chimneys many times. I use the rubber gasketed roofing screws as well as a piece of butyl rubber tape between the rung and the roof material.
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ICC
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# Posted: 22 Apr 2019 03:35pm
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There's a reason to put the panels on the roof? I generally don't like them up there.
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Nobadays
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# Posted: 22 Apr 2019 04:15pm
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ICC... yes. The cabin is on a wooded hillside, Aspen forest and I don't have enough clearing anywhere near the home that wouldn't be shaded the better part of the day.. any season. The roof is direct south facing and high enough it receives good clear sun most of every day (about 9am - to - 4pm summertime) with only a tiny bit of bare limb shade in the morning and late afternoon in the winter.... just gotta figure out what limbs/trees to trim up.
Ground mount would be better for an older one-armed guy like me but just won't work here. Gonna have to create a safe way to get up there to clean the snow off... or not. We talk about staying through the winter but likely won't so not much need for power if we aren't there anyway.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 22 Apr 2019 04:30pm
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Depending on your roof pitch, how much snow you get and the average temps when coldest, you may be surprised. An important point on installation and all pro's consider that is the alignment and allowing for run-off / shedding.
Some panels have a special coating for self-cleaning and that really makes a huge difference too. My panels (coated apparently) shed the snow very well BUT they are also at a 45 degree pitch and semi-ground mounted (rack is on the side of my Sea Can) and is 4' off the ground. I believe most panels have such a coating or finish, whatever it is for the past several years now.
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