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randydb
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# Posted: 24 Aug 2018 10:15pm
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Hi,
I'm new to this site. Our family has owned our cabin on Anvil Island in Howe Sound BC(just north of Seattle) since 1972 and the Dometic propane fridge still runs fine, but is small (7 cubic ft I think)and the interior is cracking and falling apart. We are looking to replace it.
What we have for power...
A few years ago we got two 420lb tanks. A bit of overkill but we were done with carting 100 lb tanks around. We get these filled once every year and a bit.
We also recently installed solar with two coleman 150 watt solar panels, a BRAT controller, 1000w inverter, and two 6 volt batteries (but I can't remember the stats on the batteries). Right now all the solar system does is charge cel phones and run one light. Everything else in the cabin runs on propane. The plan is to eventually run led lighting in the cabin on the solar.
I was thinking of getting a 10-13 cubic foot propane fridge. But then I have begun to wonder about 12v fridges.
Questions
1) I would prefer a direct vent fridge over free vent with co2 alarm. BUT I can pick up a second hand Unique UPG-13 fridge with CO2 alarm for about $1000 off brand new price. Am I able to vent a fridge like this to the outside anyways?
2) Living in the Pacific Wet Coast will my solar set up be able to power an upright 10-13 cubic foot fridge? I realize I can add more batteries to hold more charge...but I just don't know how much I need to keep a 12v fridge going.
3) Is there anything else I should be considering that I haven't mentioned?
Thanks for the help.
Randy
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FishHog
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2018 09:57am
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Yes you can vent to the outside. Just make sure you don’t restrict the air flow. I have done mine just to keep the heat out of the cottage
I don’t believe you current solar system will be large enough to run a 12v fridge. Solar is great so might be worth adding to it but you’re already setup for propane so i would buy the used one
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KelVarnsen
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2018 10:47am
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Quoting: randydb Unique UPG-13
I'm not really answering any of your questions Randy, but I just wanted to let you know that I have a Unique UGP-10 fridge and it has been rock solid for me. No fuss, hold the temperature perfectly. It came with my cabin when I bought it 3 years ago. The cabin was uninsulated and drafty so the previous owners had the fridge in the cabin. I'm making the cabin more airtight so I have moved the fridge out to my shed. It is a vent free model with the CO2 alarm.
I'm sure that you'll get a couple of responses telling you that in the long run it will be cheaper to beef up your solar system and move to an electric fridge rather than propane.
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offgrididaho
Member
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2018 11:21am
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Big question is your use pattern for this cabin. Are you there for long weekends, a week, a month?
If you're there for shorter periods of time you can add more batteries, they will get slowly pulled down over your visit but then slowly charged back up by your panels. If it's longer visits then you really want to try to match your daily power use to daily power generation.
Other question is how large a fridge you need... quick look indicates to me that you might not find a 12v fridge that's large enough (for example, largest Norcold or Dometic 12v seem to be ~7-8 cubic feet) if you're needing 10-13 cubic feet, propane are more available in that size. If you go larger and electric you might be looking at 110v with inverter and the subsequent slight inefficiency of invertering your power.
The big 12v fridges seem to use ~3.5a when running, figure in your climate they run about 1/2 the time, so that's 42 amp hours / day. 300 watts of solar in your neck of the woods ought to generate 100-150 amp hours per day in summer time so I think you'd be fine with just charging phones and running the fridge, but best to make a power budget spreadsheet first of some of the other things you might add later (more lights, things you run off the inverter etc).
Personally we have a propane fridge that's old and I'd like to move on to 12v, but I'm used to that from the RV and boat world so it might just be inexperience on my part that makes me want 12v (this is a new to us cabin in PNW).
-- Bass
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randydb
Member
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2018 01:42am
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Use pattern for our cabin is every day Late June to mid September. Weekends after that and two weeks in March. So I can see that solar would need more batteries and maybe panel to keep up.
We really need at least 10+ cubic foot fridge with the number of people we tend to have around there. We make do now, but need more.
I really think propane is the easiest. I just make a call and the tanks get filled. $550 a year right now. Getting a bigger fridge would run that up some, but that wouldn't be a problem.
So to set up the co2 alarm fridge to vent outside...what do you do?
Also, second hand fridge. In Canada, by the time I pay tax a brand new Unique UPG-13 fridge is $3700....I can pick up a second hand one for $2700. Still seems like a lot. Any suggestions of places to look for second hand besides craigs/kijiji? I have been watching for a few months and this is the first one I have seen this big.
Thanks all.
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randydb
Member
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2018 01:43am
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Fish hog....what do you mean by making sure I dont restrict the air flow?
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offgrididaho
Member
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2018 09:09am
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For that size you could also consider a regular household size 110v fridge running off an inverter. You would still need to up your solar and batteries significantly (having trouble finding great specs on how many watts an energy star fridge, 100-200 watts when running?) and you have the inverter loss, but new basic energy star fridges run ~$600 here in states, you could buy a lot of solar and batteries for the price difference between that and the UPG-13.
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FishHog
Member
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2018 09:19am
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Go to a larger vent pipe than on the fridge avoid turns as much as possible and run your extended vent pipe as vertical as possible. It’s only going to vent by convection so you want to keep the air flow easy. If you restrict it it won’t flow and won’t work
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randydb
Member
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2018 12:10pm
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So basically run a good sized vent pipe straight up and out of the co2 alarm unit and I am gold (that's what you do more or less with the other ones too I think). That would be easy to do in our place. I have to get around behind one of these co2 alarm units and take a look at how they vent.
I am going to stay away from110v. We have 4 families with kids and varying degrees of "Fix Ability" and this would just add one more thing for people to screw up and have problems with. As I think it through "turn on the gas and start the fridge, call once a year to fill the propane tanks" is a nice way of keeping this one simple.
Thanks.
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2018 05:49pm
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Quoting: randydb So basically run a good sized vent pipe straight up and out of the co2 alarm unit and I am gold
My old propane fridges never had a built in CO alarm, so I have no idea how the alarm system is setup on a fridge that has its own built in alarm. However, the statement I quoted above sounds like you are venting the alarm sensor not the exhaust. That's probably just me making an incorrect interpretation. 
You will want to vent the exhaust gas from the propane burner to the outside in as direct and straight a path as you can. Keep in mind that exhausting to the outside, while a good idea, also means air has to enter the cabin to replace that exhausted air. maybe your cabin is air leaky enough as it is. The vent kit that I have seen for the Dometic fridges includes an air inlet pipe as well as the exhaust.
Another way to vent a propane fridge is like they do with RV fridges. The entire backside is boxed in and has inlet and exhaust vents for not only the combustion products but the heat that is removed from the fridge interior. The amount of heat from the inside of the box can be welcome in cool weather but OTOH it sure heats up the cabin interior in the summer. A friend of mine made such a vent box behind his Servel (Dometic) years ago and that has worked well for years.
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randydb
Member
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2018 06:21pm
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I see what you mean ICC....I just meant from the CO2 alarmed fridge. I realize I should be coming off the vent pipe.
I had thought the box method you mention would be my only option with these CO2 alarmed units. We plan to do a bit of addition in a couple years to our place and the fridge will be in the new area when we are done. I would prefer to just vent through the existing hole from the old fridge and not create a couple new vent holes in the wall that I will just have to cover in a few years.
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2018 08:38pm
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It is CO, not CO2, you need to worry about. The fridges have CO alarms, not CO2 alarms. Too much CO2 in the air we breath is not good for us either but CO is the product of poor combustion and the red blood cells in our body prefer CO to O2 (oxygen). CO can kill you quickly.
Copied and pasted from the Unique websight--- "*In Canada according to the 2010 Canada B149 Installation Code, if a propane fridge is being used in a dwelling it shall be of the direct vent type. The direct vent propane fridge must be located/ installed on an outside wall (max. 18â€/46cm distance from outside wall). In all other applications in Canada, you can legally use propane fridges with either a CO alarming device with safety shut-off or direct vent system, based on your requirements. Please use a licensed gas fitter to install. *"
CO detectors have a limited life. My stand alone CO detectors cease functioning after 5 years and need replacing. I have heard, BUT HAVE NOT CONFIRMED, that the same thing happens with the detectors in Unique refrigerators. Worse, I heard, BUT DID NOT CONFIRM, that a new compatible CO detector/alarm costs a couple hundred dollars and that the fridge won't work without an operating detector. Check that out before buying. Like I said, it may not be true, might be an internet tale. Sorry if that info is not correct. I can not find any info on the Unique website, but I now recall reading that someplace. Have no idea where.
Here's a drawing that shows the venting system Unique uses
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2018 08:41pm - Edited by: ICC
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You and anyone else should also be aware that pretty much all propane fridges use the same refrigeration system.No matter the size of the box they all have the same cooling unit, so a larger box starting off warm will take longer to cool down than a smaller box. They have the same 1500 BTU burner.
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randydb
Member
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2018 08:57pm
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I read this too. "*In Canada according to the 2010 Canada B149 Installation Code, if a propane fridge is being used in a dwelling it shall be of the direct vent type. The direct vent propane fridge must be located/ installed on an outside wall (max. 18â€/46cm distance from outside wall). In all other applications in Canada, you can legally use propane fridges with either a CO alarming device with safety shut-off or direct vent system, based on your requirements. Please use a licensed gas fitter to install"
But then I have heard from a couple people that have propane fridges with the CO shut off alarm in their cabins and houses. The upg-13 fridge I am looking at is in a house. The guy has 2 of them in houses...one a rental unit. But that rule is why I am asking if I can vent the CO alarm unit outside...to be safe.
So I don't understand. I plan to call and ask if a cabin is one of the "other applications" on monday.
I have read that the fridge won't run unless the CO alarm is working, so if it costs a lot to replace I can see that being a problem.
ICC - thanks for the info on the size of system being the same. Food for thought!!
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2018 09:04pm - Edited by: ICC
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I think the key word in the regulation is dwelling.
from dictionary.com
noun
a building or place of shelter to live in; place of residence; abode; home.
I think a cabin, cottage, etc are looked at as being the same as a 4000 sq ft city residence as far as propane fridges go. Other, may be something like a non-attached garage, shed, barn etc.
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neckless
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2018 11:21am
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i think solar fridge is the way to go, u cant use a regular fridge ,the compressor uses to much to start... u need a solar fridge with a soft start compressor the ugp470l1 is a 16cu fridge with a comsumsion of 28ah/24 hours 24volts...5.5 draw on 24 volts very doable....no venting , max safety for all no cost after installation...
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Wilbour
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2018 07:56pm
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Quoting: neckless u need a solar fridge with a soft start
While justifying the cost of a solar fridge one must look at using the same $ to build a more robust solar setup.
I'm no expert but with a cheaper fridge and a couple of grand, you would be out the same cash but have a better solar system.
Just my personal opinion. 
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 28 Aug 2018 04:31pm
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Quoting: randydb Unique UPG-13 fridge is $3700....I can pick up a second hand one for $2700.
Good lord. You can buy a solar system and a 10 cu ft electric fridge and come back with cash to spare.
I know I seem to write this often. But my propane savings are now well over 2000 in propane costs alone.
Add 2000 in savings on the fridge (used). 4k buys a heck of solar system. And then you get lights. Microwave. Coffee maker. Vacuum cleaner. Fans. a/c. Etc.
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Jebediah
Member
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# Posted: 28 Aug 2018 06:19pm
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Quoting: randydb I read this too.
I needed a direct vent fridge in order to get insurance....I'm in Nova Scotia.
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hamish
Member
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# Posted: 29 Aug 2018 08:04pm
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Per the Canada Code, a dwelling is pretty much anyplace with cooking, living and sleeping space, and in most cases bathroom facilities. All cottages, camps etc would fall under this national code.
Surely yes you can get people to install it however you or they with, but this does come with complications down the road (ie red tags, supplier refusing to deliver fuel etc....). There are meant to be installed as direct vent appliances regardless of co detectors coupled directly to the gas valve.
Best part of the valve coupled co detectors.......when the batteries die and your not there to notice, your fridge shuts off........
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