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groingo
Member
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# Posted: 10 Oct 2017 12:35pm
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Notice it is taking more Propane to do the same job, when a tank would normally go 16 days now only 11?
I got curious and sent three random samples to a lab for testing and it showed the Propane contained over 40% water which should have diluted it but they also found something odd in the mix which was Ethanol.
Seems its cheaper to water it down with cheaper Ethanol rather than Propane which do mix together .
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NorthRick
Member
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# Posted: 10 Oct 2017 05:06pm
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Who are you getting your propane from? I can't believe 40% water would be legal to sell.
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DaveBell
Moderator
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# Posted: 10 Oct 2017 05:56pm
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That Rhino Gas did that to me. I get refilled only from RV place or Costco, BJ's, etc.
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hamish
Member
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# Posted: 10 Oct 2017 08:11pm - Edited by: hamish
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How were you able to send samples to a lab?
Ethanol is a liquid versus propane being a gas, chemical properties, mass share some properties, however the ignition points are near opposite. Are you sure it just wasn't ethanethiol that was present? (that the odour you get from propane for leak detection etc....)
The water content is most likely from condensation inside the tank, just from outdoor temperature changes. Whens the last time your tank was purged?
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NorthRick
Member
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# Posted: 11 Oct 2017 01:11pm
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Quoting: hamish The water content is most likely from condensation inside the tank, just from outdoor temperature changes. Whens the last time your tank was purged?
How would that moisture get in the tank in the first place? It's not like a vented gas tank where air moves in and out from changes in temperature and fuel level.
The only two ways I can think of are 1) the tank sat empty with the valve open, or 2) it was mixed in with the propane from the supplier. I would assume (yes, I know) that the 2nd possibility is regulated as to how much water content can be in propane that's for sale.
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 11 Oct 2017 02:32pm
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So, other than post a message about it here did you talk to the supplier or the government agency that regulates propane? I do know that in someplaces, in winter, methanol used to be added to a tank, but that was done only with the lafrger on or in ground tanks with about 12 ounces methanol, added to a 250 gallon tank. I suppose they could use ethanol as well, but the norm isto usemethanol. reason being methanol is poisonous and ethanol is not. So to avoid tax evasion ethanol is more tightly controlled or has methanol added to "denature" it.
But if there really was 40% water in that something is wrong and somebody should be in deep doodoo. You must have an isolated problem, maybe a crook someplace in the chain of supply, so I think a complaint to the oversight agency is needed.
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hamish
Member
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# Posted: 11 Oct 2017 07:10pm
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Quoting: NorthRick How would that moisture get in the tank in the first place? It's not like a vented gas tank where air moves in and out from changes in temperature and fuel level.The only two ways I can think of are 1) the tank sat empty with the valve open, or 2) it was mixed in with the propane from the supplier. I would assume (yes, I know) that the 2nd possibility is regulated as to how much water content can be in propane that's for sale.
Just by the normal heating and cooling by the ambient temperature outdoors throughout the day. Propane tanks and vessels are metal, the heating and cooling process will create condensate, being sealed or not.
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 11 Oct 2017 08:57pm - Edited by: ICC
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Quoting: hamish Just by the normal heating and cooling by the ambient temperature outdoors throughout the day. Propane tanks and vessels are metal, the heating and cooling process will create condensate, being sealed or not.
???? think about that for a sec... I have serious doubts about that statement. Yes, water vapor might condense on the exterior of the tank, especially when propane is being consumed. Propane in a tank exerts pressure outwards. no way water vapor is going to make it through a steel wall into a vessel with pressure inside it. Also no way water vapor under normal atmospheric pressure is going to pass through a steel wall, even if there was a vacuum in the tank. You don't get condensation without the presence of water vapor. You can't get a build up, an increase in the amount of condensate without the introduction of new quantities of water vapor moving from one side to another, like what can happen with air leaky poor house wall construction. But propane tanks are steel, aluminum or special plastics and kevlar.
Show me a scientific explanation of your claim and I will eat my words.
Also AFAIK purging is only required with a new tank or with a tank that has sat with the valve open to the atmosphere. And with the new valves that seal when the hose fitting is removed that safety device should also prevent any need for later purging.
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hamish
Member
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# Posted: 11 Oct 2017 10:38pm
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Well its been near 30 years since my last chemistry class........
There is already water vapour in a propane tank, even when purged due to the adding of Methanol. As the pressure in the your tank lessens the ability to create more moisture increases.
I have yet to see a tank larger then 40lbs with a OPD valve fitted.
I don't have a scientific explanation, and doubt your local gas supplier could present you with one either, yet I have experienced freeze ups and state changes with propane.
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FishHog
Member
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# Posted: 12 Oct 2017 02:06pm
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Sorry Hamish, but other than the limited amount of moisture in the tank originally, it won't gain more from heating and cooling. The open to atmosphere fuel tank on your car will, but a closed system like a propane tank cannot. Unless its left unhooked with the valve open, the only way moisture is getting in is from the propane source during filling.
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 12 Oct 2017 02:23pm
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Quoting: FishHog Sorry Hamish, but other than the limited amount of moisture in the tank originally, it won't gain more from heating and cooling. The open to atmosphere fuel tank on your car will, but a closed system like a propane tank cannot. Unless its left unhooked with the valve open, the only way moisture is getting in is from the propane source during filling.
Nailed it!!
But hamish is correct on the OPD; only needed on 40# and smaller. I do believe a lot of the small cabin owners are using 20, 30 and 40's.
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hamish
Member
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# Posted: 12 Oct 2017 08:38pm
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Ok wont argue with that, but how does the moisture get in to the propane source during filling..........big tank filling lil tank..........if it cant get into the small tank, how does it get into the big tank.........??
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FishHog
Member
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# Posted: 13 Oct 2017 08:02am
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it has to be contamination from the supplier in the first place. its not forming in the tanks.
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snobdds
Member
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# Posted: 13 Oct 2017 11:12am
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https://www.hunker.com/12597867/how-to-remove-water-from-a-propane-tank
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NorthRick
Member
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# Posted: 13 Oct 2017 11:53am
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Remember, propane, natural gas, and crude oil (which can be used to make propane) all come from the ground. Water is also in the ground. The water and other impurities should get removed during refining and processing but sounds like maybe this didn't happen in groingo's case.
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groingo
Member
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# Posted: 16 Oct 2017 11:22am - Edited by: groingo
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Propane supplier's Suburban Propane, Cenex and Star Ice.
Testing Lab Analytical 360 in Seattle (foreign material division)
Ethanol is used to remove water but can also be used to increase volitility with water present much like the product Heet used in gasoline.
State regulations exist but are not enforced. in Washington.
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