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Scott G
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# Posted: 3 Oct 2017 12:13pm - Edited by: Scott G
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So at the age of 42 my wife and I find ourselves empty nesters and ready to sell the house and move full time to the camp. Our target is by late spring / early summer 2018.
Yay.
So I've started pricing solar systems with 'local' companies. Local to New Brunswick that is. Here is the first spec out and I'm posting to hopefully get some feedback on the package.
I sent them this list of loads:
10-12 led light fixtures (not simultaneously)
Charge Laptop / tablet & 2 iphones
32†LCD TV (average 6hrs/week – only used to watch a movie or two per week)
Small DVD player – same as above
Router (will have to be Xplornet however we’re not setup with them yet)
Cell booster
Medium size Refrigerator
Deep freeze (small size)
Coffee maker (?)
Small apartment size washing machine
Ceiling fan (72w) – link to unit: goo.gl/nQP3hW
A submersible well pump – 750W model with slow cycle start
And they have some back with this system:
940 Watt PV / 420Ah Battery Bank @ 24vDC / 2200 Watt (6600 surge) Pure Sine Inverter Charger
$759.96 = 4 x 235w panels @ Reg. $229.99/ea (expandable to 6 panels) ***these panels are currently on sale for $189.99/ea
$158.00 = 200LF of #10 PV cable @ $0.79/LF (for connecting the 2 strings 50’ in length to the MNPV3 combiner box)
$139.99 = 1 x MNPV3 combiner box
$39.98 = 2 x 15A DC breakers @ $19.99/ea
$11.99 = 1 x 5’ pair of #10 PV (for connecting combiner box to controller)
$389.99 = 1 x 60A SRNE charge controller with BTS (If CSA required, you will need the Outback controller +~$400)
$44.99 = 1 x 5’ pair of #4 stranded cable w/copper eyelets (for connecting controller to batteries)
$1,519.93 = 4 x 420Ah batteries @ $379.99/ea (4 is good for starting out, and this is expandable to 8 or 12 batteries total – you will certainly require a min of 8 batteries and probably 12 when living there full time)
$37.49 = 3 x 12†2/0 battery interconnect cables @$12.49/ea (for series connection between the batteries)
$26.99 = 1 x 300 Amp battery terminal fuse
$74.99 = 1 x 5’ pair of 2/0 inverter connection cables
$1,799.99 = 1 x EVO-2224 inverter/charger with 6600 watt surge and 70A 4 stage battery charger
$179.99 = 1 x EVO-RC remote
$16.50 = 30LF ground wire (for the panels and the inverter/controller components)
$9.99 = ground rod
$5210.78 Sub Total
$781.62 HST
$5,992.40 TOTAL
He's also talked about expansion options both in PV and Bank...and has recommended DC fridge, ceiling fan and deep freeze.
Any input is very appreciated.
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Ontario lakeside
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# Posted: 3 Oct 2017 09:04pm
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We built our system (with the help of Creeky) with a Lithium battery 930W of panels and 4 KW battery. All for about $4000
Now I want to do the city house!
Detailed build video here if your interested.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfilBtej3t4
Good luck with your build.
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Scott G
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# Posted: 4 Oct 2017 07:47am
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Nice - watched the video, great system.
I'd be very interested in consulting with Creeky (fees included) to build a proper system for our cabin.
Creeky, sir, if you read this sir and do offer paid system consultations please contact me. We are serious about this move and I am open to paying for a consultant to help build a system.
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Mike 870
Member
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# Posted: 4 Oct 2017 09:52am
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You can really help your load analysis by selecting a fridge and freezer and washing machine. Those loads are completely going to drive your design. Make sure the well pump is a quality one that is used successfully in off grid applications, some of them can be real energy hogs. As for coffee, do French press on the (propane) stove.
The system he proposed looks to be well balanced, the question is, will it meet your needs?
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northernboy
Member
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# Posted: 4 Oct 2017 11:39am - Edited by: northernboy
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I installed my own solar this spring for my off grid year round home.
Some suggestions and thoughts from your post:
1) your load is very very similar to what I had intended, and I doubled my solar size for future expansion. IT Didn't take long to get to the future. If you are anything like us, your 4 hr TV a week time will be 2-3 hrs per day in the evening. Ask your self what you use now at home, because this off grid place will now be home!! When you go for vacation or the weekend, tv is not an issue but when you live there full time?
2) Coffeemakers like a electric percolator, or a kuerig consume big power (800-1000 watts or 30 amps) We make coffee with a old school percolater on top of the propane stove! Excellent coffee. And takes no electricity!
3) I would go with the upgraded outback controller. Your current system is going to produce a max of 40 amps, so a 60 amp controller is ok, but what about when you upgrade or expand? I would suggest a 80 amp outback and be done with it.
4) I don't see any type of mounting system? either a ground mount or roof top so add that to the bill.
5) Since you live in New Brunswick and New Brunswick is home of the best manufacturer for off grid batterie suppliers ROLLS SURRETE, get the rolls batteries they are priced the same as the other brand they quoted you. I bought my 6 V batteries from them at $357 ea. and they are 550AH instead of 420.
6) You are going to need to put a transfer switch between your solar (inverter) and your main panel box. When cloudy for long periods or during high load times ( like a vacuum) you can switch the transfer switch from SOLAR to Generator. Then the generator runs the house and charges your batteries. ( Make sure your inverter is a inverter/charger model.
Build it right the first time or you will be unhappy...buy name brand that's proven!!
Also I would venture that 4 cups of coffee in a Kuerig system would drain you down to 50%. So if you and the wife have 2 cups each in the morning ......power issues till the sun recharges you.
One last thing, and remember this is just my 2 cents after a year of research and then building my own and installing a 2.5 KW system ......Stay away from Lithium...not worth 3-4x's the money and it is not proven technology. Not saying it wont turn out great but let them work out the bugs for a few years and the prices will drop. A good solid time proven battery is still the lead flooded style (20yrs + life if maintained properly)
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Scott G
Member
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# Posted: 4 Oct 2017 11:48am
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Hi Northernboy,
Thanks for the reply.
1)I hear you. We actually don't watch TV now...only use our iphones for watching Youtube and Nextflix...don't even have cable.
2) Indeed. Time to get a french press. Do do the Cabelas old skool perc over propane now. It works fine.
3) Our panel is only 60amps...we have a 'generator panel' at the cabin that can switch between two inputs. The thinking was one line for genny, other for solar, but that doesn't allow for auto charge etc...
4) I plan to build a ground mount so I can move it for better winter gain. We do have a really good location though, edge of a long field facing south.
5) Absolutely agree. 550AH is uch better too.
6) Yeah, that's where I'll need more help for sure.
I appreciate your 2¢s. Thanks.
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Scott G
Member
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# Posted: 4 Oct 2017 11:50am - Edited by: Scott G
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Hey Mike,
Thanks man. Very good suggestion to select those appliances. I'm still unsure if I should be looking at conventional appliances or spending out on DC?
The company that quoted this system also sells all the DC appliances and I can't help but think that skews his suggestions.
I know others are running 'normal' fridges etc... Just need to get more details as to what I'll need.
As for pump, i'm looking at a 750W soft start model. Don't have the brand model # in front of me.
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Mike 870
Member
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# Posted: 4 Oct 2017 01:18pm
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Since you haven't bought anything yet, keep in mind, if you go with a normal appliance that we'd use on grid, it will be cheaper for the appliance, but you're going to spend that saved money on upsizing your solar and also on charge discharge battery wear and tear.
I'm going to be doing all this soon, I'm going to convert a small chest freezer to a fridge, and add extra insulation to it.
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Scott G
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# Posted: 4 Oct 2017 02:25pm
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I hear you on that. Honestly I'm open to, and hoping to get, information on a complete solution. I have no problem spending a bit more on appliances that will reduce the size of system I need.
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 4 Oct 2017 07:01pm
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Scott...
Have a look at Unique Offgrid Appliances, nice stuff, wee bit pricey but worth every cent. I have a Classic Stainless & Black cookstove. They have a great Rep and meet ALL current safety specs etc... (insurance will want to know)
REF: http://uniqueoffgrid.com/
Fridges: LPG is an option but pricey ! consider it but also look around. Presently at Year End with new models of everything appearing for 2018, look at high efficiency fridges... I have a Danby which only uses 530 Kw per year and it only cost me $420 bucks a couple of years ago. Look at your local Costco and other retailers Danby also owns/makes Magic Chef too and I just saw a great sale on them at HomeDepot. These are good value and not power pigs.
Dryer ? Electric absolutely NOT ! More evil than an electric stove.... Propane or clothes line.
Water Heater: Electric Tank = Another Evil Creature. Propane Tank better but still a pig to keep water warm for 24/7.
On-Demand Propane is best bang for buck
In Canada we must be CAUTIOUS and make sure the model IS CSA Certified, ULC counts for NADA and most installers will walk away and forget insurance... There are many good value types out there and of course prices are everywhere... Eccotemp is good $ value but their support dept leaves much to be desired.
Check out "The Cabin Depot" located in Lincoln NB
https://www.thecabindepot.com/
and their EBay site
http://stores.ebay.ca/The-Cabin-Depot
I've purchased stuff from them and they ship fast, as ordered and excellent folks... even tried to help me with a product I did not buy from them.... That says a lot IMO.
FYI: Both Lowes & Homedepot sell Eccotemp kits in Canada
@Lowes (I gave up using HD - too many issues)
Eccotemp NE38002 45HI Indoor Tankless Water Heater
Price $1,023.00 with complete horizontal vent kit
REF: https://www.lowes.ca/products/default.aspx?tid=1436&&atb=fuel-type=liquid-propane~typ e=tankless
You WANT the Vent Kit otherwise you will suffer greatly trying to chase it all down. Dunno what the rules are in NB now but here in Ontario, if you want insurance, hell if you want a big LPG Tank, it must all be professionally installed, tested & certified now else your pooched... Applies to all installed propane devices, not just the water heater.
Solar System: The "deal, is not such a deal" as you may think... they are flogging old stock bought cheap from an overstock warehouse. There are now 400+ Watt Panels out there and by year end expect 500W units available... The New Gen panels are coming and so far, projections say 500-750W units late next year. **AS THE US IS CLAMPING DOWN ON IMPORTED PANELS that will affect our pricing favourably so bad for US Folks trying to go solar versus us who won't be affected by such idiocy...
REF: http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/articles/2017/09/international-trade-commission-r ules-on-the-section-201-solar-trade-case.html
My suggestion is go for the Higher Capacity newer (more efficient) panels versus the older generation that company is attempting to flog. Have a look at the company I bought the majority of my stuff from, Rob has good market fair pricing so it would provide a reasonable gauge for your consideration. Although I got almost everything from there, I ordered my Marine Class 3000w Pure Sine Inverter/Charger from another company out of Montreal as it suited my specs. I also went with 8, Rolls Surette S-550's but since then the price of LiIon has come down and is more reasonable now, so worth very serious consideration.
REF: https://www.solacity.com/
Example: Hanwha Q.PEAK-G4.1/SC 305
Hanwha Solar Q.PEAK-G4.1/SC 305 Watt, 60-cell mono PV module, black frame $250.10
NOTE Mounting will affect the performance of your solar system, Tracker$ cost but payback in better overall performance;
Roof mount - correct angles / exposure and maintenance = tricky;
Fixed Ground Mount can work IF you over panel a bit to compensate (must make sure the Charge Controller can handle the Max Watts, Volts & Amps !)
Manually Adjustable Ground mount is the best combo just requires 4 fiddlings a yr.
EITHER WAY, you want to be able to get the snow off the panels in a big blow.... so Roof is pretty much a bad idea for you, I KNOW NB and the winters you get, a bit worse than what I get up here. LOL and you get the stuff off the Atlantic which can be ... what words suit that ? Nothing polite in any case.
Ceiling Fans... old thinking and not so good with heating in winter and for cooling, proper design planning can solve that in a new build... FYI: My cabin reached a High of 23.5C inside all summer long when when 35C outside with windows & doors open and having true East-West Orientation and more glass on South Side... NO AC, NO FANS ! just using what Mother Nature provided for free.
Heat Recirc is best provided by low energy, low volume air movement with something like a Heat Stick... works if your wood fired heating, radiant or whatever.... I made my own  as well as my own HRV system...
REF Heatstick:
http://www.heatstick.com/_Heat%20StkBluBox.htm
REF DIY HRV:
https://www.wildsnow.com/17884/how-to-build-air-cross-flow-heat-exchanger-budget/
* My variation: I used a smooth 3" Aluminium inner pipe instead of corrugated aluminium. For the outside endcap & intake I used System 636 Flue Gas termination as shown in attached images. The one with the Live Edge Cedar is my cabin.
TEMP CONTROL ! OK I have talked about this before but what can I say, proof in the pudding IT WORKS... the concept is sound, works in 90% of climate zones and this method will be included in the new National Building Code guides for 2018...
REF: http://www.houstoncoolmetalroofs.com/cool-roof-information/cool-roof-design-texas/
There are other names for it and it's on GBA and other sites as well as starting to appear in CMHC too... Absolutely a Worthwhile method to use.
Hope all this helps and elicits some deeper thought as to your plans... Remember, use Nature to your advantage, do not even attempt to fight her, she's pretty cranky now and best to get along with the old girl...
BTW a last note... a completely unintended bonus for me and worth consideration... My Pump/Power house is 70' from cabin, I have 2, 4" O-Pipes running 8' deep from cabin to pump house (1 water, 1 electric) air temp coming from the pipes into cabin is 11C/52F year round.... does make a difference and completely unintentional bonus. These are of course unperforated and the depth is there because when we excavated with the big machine I had the guy trench it for me... Anything 1' below frost level will give you roughly 50F/10C air temp... that's a gain in winter and cooling in summer... All Natural Heating / cooling, hook a 12V box fan (low speed) and bob's your uncle. Had I known, I would have used 6" O-Pipe ! Guess what the Greenhouse will get ? 2, 6", 100' loops....
IPEX system 636 Vent Cap
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My HRV vent installed.
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Scott G
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# Posted: 5 Oct 2017 08:30am
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Thank you Steve, that's alot to chew on and I"ll have more time to do that later today.
That quote I first posted is from the Cabin Depot actually. Funny you mentioned them. They also carry Unique Solar appliances etc...
We will only be buying in the spring - unless I will the 6/49 - so I'm simply trying to wrap my head around this. Really appreciate the comments, advice and suggestions.
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 5 Oct 2017 09:10am - Edited by: Steve_S
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Cabin Depot I think is not bad but their price points on somethings could certainly be better... shop it all around and consider various options... Best to hammer out the thinking before running off and buying stuff (with some exceptions) like when a super deal pops up and cash saved, even if stored for a bit is too good to pass up.
One such example is when I bought several lifts of 4'x8'x3-1/3" & 4" thick PolyISO Insulation for $7 & $8 a sheet... (used in my roof) or the 4'x4'x5-1/2" HD-EPS-II for my walls at $10 a sheet. Would have been somewhat insane NOT to scoop those.
EDIT:
FYI a Penny Wise / Dollar Foolish alert!
Something to consider when shopping around that is a marketing trick to make you spend more than needed. While lower Wattage Panels may seem like a bargain they are not necessarily a bargain when you add in costs.
IF you need 12, 250 watt panels to generate 3000 watts that will require more racking, mounts, more wire and more bits, plus your increasing your potential failure rates. When looking at trackers etc they usually accommodate, 4, 8 panels and beyond that, they get even more insane in pricing. So while you pay less per panel, your ancillary costs go up. But if you purchase 375W panels you only need 8 for 3kw, saving on racking etc...
Another point, is that 60-Cel panels while a bit smaller are also less wattage typically, 72-cel units are a bit larger but overall your still saving space for equivalent power production. Might not seem like a problem at first blush but when it's get's to practical implementation, this can (often does) create side issues which result in serious drunken sailor talk.... not to mention a wallet hit that goes with it.
As the US is about to further hobble the 3 legged dog in the Race with the ITC rulings, the competitors out there are chomping at their increased profit potential and lower production costs (increases in scale of manufacturing), many others global will benefit from that boost as a byproduct. It's a weird Irony but it is what it is.
Glad to have been of assistance.
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Scott G
Member
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# Posted: 5 Oct 2017 09:49am
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I'll shop around for sure and yes I take advantage of killer deals when I can too.
As for tracking...I have no intention of an auto tracker - just a ground based rack that I can tilt manually.
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 5 Oct 2017 05:42pm
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You should look at Ontario's panel mount then. It is cool.
I have his system on my website. BobolinkSolar dot com. Its called the Great Grey Owl.
I'll toss in a few well rehearsed ;) points:
One: don't buy lead acid batteries. Your system is automatically 20% more efficient by going lithium.
Two: Avoid propane whenever possible. I say this because of the running costs. A propane fridge not only costs more to start it costs $$$ every day. After 6 years with an electric fridge I've saved $2k on propane. And I saved 800 on the fridge. Etc.
Three: Buy good stuff. A few dollars now is a headache less later. Victron rules! And the mppt controllers are now CSA if it matters. The inverter/chargers will be by Christmas (yup. Heard it here first).
I also really like Schneider. A bit fussier to set up. But boy. I have a customer who's running his whole house off grid. Electric everything. Even water heater. (He has the Golden Eagle set up).
Four: Have fun. Solar is cool.
PS-panels-there's a guy in Ottawa with REC 350s for $250. Nice panel. Pretty good price.
Some "b" grade floating around at .55-65/w too. Depending on quantity. I understand they're okay panels.
I'm sold out. And with the hoarding going on 'cause of possible tariffs. I'm staying out until things settle down. Plus. With guys selling at .70 for a grade and .60 for b. I'd rather send you to them.
Good luck.
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Scott G
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# Posted: 6 Oct 2017 09:01am
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Thanks creeky - lots a great points.
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