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SCSJeff
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# Posted: 11 Sep 2017 11:36am
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Hello all,
I currently have an off-grid vacation cabin with a conventional water setup (see attached pic):
Deep Well (220v pump), Pressure Tank, and propane hot water heater (no electric). We have it all plumbed so that it is easy to drain everything down via gravity. (No worries about having to blow the lines out)
Hindsight being 20-20, I think I would have done things differently. But, at the time, we wanted to prepare for the chance that we might get electric utility run up the mountain...
Obviously, since I have a 220 pump, I need to run the generator to take showers and otherwise keep water in the Pressure Tank. I've been running this way for 2 years. However, it is getting increasingly annoying to have to walk out and start the generator every 4-5 toilet flushes just to pump the pressure tank back up.
I've been thinking about ways to make this easier and/or more efficient:
One option was to just upgrade to a remote start genny. However, I feel like if I do that, I should also go to a Honda EU7000is so I can reap the benefits of a much quieter and more fuel efficient generator. (Part of the annoyance factor is the noise). Unfortunately, that is dang expensive!!! (I also worry about theft)
Another option, is to get a plastic storage tank to keep inside (have to deal with freezing temps). If I did this, I would change the deep well pump to pump into the storage (hopefully with a float switch) and then use something like a shurflo (12v or 120v) to pump into the pressure tank. Question: Is the shurflo powerful enough to pump up the existing pressure tank?
This second option would allow me to use more water before having to fire up the deep well pump. I could also run the smaller Shurflo on either a small battery setup, my existing solar setup, or even just a smaller generator (like the EU2000). My only issue with this is that I don't have much room in my utility room for anything larger than about a 50 gallon container. 50 Gallons will get me quite a bit more flushes and hand washing. But, depending on what's left, probably only 1 quick shower. This leaves me wondering if the added complexity is worth it? I suppose I could eliminate the large hot water heater and replace with an on demand unit to free up a bunch of space. But, that also adds more cost and more complexity (especially for draining down)
Just looking for opinions or other ideas I haven't thought about?
Thanks,
Jeff
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NorthRick
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# Posted: 11 Sep 2017 07:51pm
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Replace the existing pressure tank with a bigger one?
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SCSJeff
Member
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# Posted: 11 Sep 2017 09:11pm
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I did think about that. The current pressure tank gives me about 5 flushes (1.2 gpf). If I can double the size, it's still only 10 flushes though (not counting any other water use) and definitely not a shower without firing up the big beast still...
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 11 Sep 2017 09:59pm
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Quoting: SCSJeff Is the shurflo powerful enough to pump up the existing pressure tank?
Pressure tanks are used with a well pump to avoid the rapid cycling that would occur without a pressure tank. That is hard on those deep well pumps. The Shurflo is designed to be used without a pressure tank. They have an integral pressure switch that operates the pump as needed.
Shurflo models do pump up to 45 PSI so should be able to operate with the present pressure tank, though. But if you change the deep well pump to only supply water to a holding supply tank you could maybe do without that pressure tank.
Shurflo also makes their pumps in 115 volt AC versions. Do you have any battery system for lighting or whatever? IIRC the DC, 12 volt versions consume about 7 amps when running. Note that the Shurflo operate best when placed at the bottom level of the supply tank. They can draw several feet of head but raising the pump above the supply reduces the output volume.
You do have to match the pump flow capacity to the intended appliances and use pattern. If someone was having a shower and a toilet flushed at the same time someone else drew a quart of water in the kitchen that could be a problem.
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SCSJeff
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# Posted: 11 Sep 2017 10:31pm
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ICC,
Yes, I do have a small solar/battery setup that I use for lights. It's all 120v though. I use a 600W ProSine Inverter to supply the AC.
Good to know about the location of the pump in relation to the supply tank!
Thanks!
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 11 Sep 2017 10:44pm
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How about a solar well pump, even if its a livestock type, filling a huge water tank elevated on a tower, use hydro static pressure. Solar pump can run all day if need be. A float switch to turn it off when tank is full. Get a black tank from Home Depot, 550 gallons or so, then a battery can run a 12V RV pump for pressure if hydro static isnt enough. A solar charger on that battery too. All can be run with the generator if sunlight is at a minimum.
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SCSJeff
Member
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# Posted: 11 Sep 2017 10:54pm
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toyota_mdt_tech,
Knowing what I know now, I might have gone more in that direction. However, it would cost quite a bit to pull up the existing pump and line and replace with a solar pump. The well is over 500' deep. Would a solar pump even work that deep?
Plus, I have freezing weather to deal with in the winter as well. Would need to figure out ways to keep the outside tank and lines from freezing. Unfortunately, that adds up too...
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Atlincabin
Member
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# Posted: 11 Sep 2017 11:41pm
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I have a gravity feed system that fills a 30-gallon tank in the loft of our cabin (filtered through a ceramic filter so drinkable). House pressure is provided by a shurflo 115V AC pump plus a small pressure tank (3 gallon). While the shurflo will operate a system without a pressure tank, it is nice to not have the pump kick on just for a glass of water. You should be able to do similarly, perhaps with a larger storage tank so you only run the deep well pump occasionally. I don't know your situation, but we probably only use 8 gallons a day at the very most (we normally use the outhouse, so only rarely flush the interior toilet - that helps a lot). That is for two people.
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SCSJeff
Member
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# Posted: 12 Sep 2017 08:55pm
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Atlincabin,
Do you need to drain that tank in the loft in winter? If so, how? I have the eves upstairs that we've debated using for a larger storage tank. Just wasn't sure if structurally it was safe to hold that much weight and we also couldn't figure out how we would drain it down.
As far as toilet usage... My wife and daughter refuse to go outside now since we got the septic installed... It also gets a lot of use first thing in the morning when there's a group of guys up for four wheeling or hunting  That's probably the most annoying time to have to go out and start the genny. Early AM during deer season!
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skootamattaschmidty
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# Posted: 13 Sep 2017 08:36am
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I agree with ICC that if you went the route of the Shufrflo pump you would not need the existing pressure tank which would free up space for you. I have two tanks in a crawl space at my cabin that are joined together by a hose which gives me approximately 150 gallons. One tank is raised higher then the other. When I fill them, I fill the top tank which drains into the lower tank until both are full. This allowed me to increase my storage capacity even though I could not fit a bigger tank through the opening in the crawl space. When low I turn my generator on and have a submersible pump that I use to fill them. I use a 12v shurflo pump that gives me lots of pressure. I have an eccotemp L10 water heater. If I'm by myself, I can go days before I have to fill. When I have a number of guests I usually fill once a day. You may find two smaller tanks that fit in your space and join them together to give you more water capacity in the small space.
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Atlincabin
Member
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# Posted: 13 Sep 2017 11:21am
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Jeff,
Yes, I drain it in winter. Because it is above all of my plumbing, I can just turn off the filler and gravity drain the entire system. If I really want to do so, I can climb into the loft and tilt the barrel (it's plastic and quite lightweight when almost empty, and connected to the pump with a flexible hose) to get it to completely drain, but having a bit of water freeze in the bottom is not an issue in terms of cracking the barrel. Or you could just add a tee where the pipe comes out of the barrel and run a drain pipe outside to a valve that you could use to drain the tank.
I have a bulkhead fitting in the side of the barrel basically at the bottom, which is what feeds the system. One could put the bulkhead fitting actually on the bottom of the barrel if you elevate it on a couple of 2x4s but that seems more complicated than necessary for me.
In terms of weight, water is about 8 pounds/gallon, so my 30-gallon tank is the equivalent of one bubba when full. I don't know what your structure is like, but most floors will hold that much weight or more easily. (Our tank is sitting over a log that is about 14" diameter and we used to have two 55-gallon tanks up there with absolutely no issues). If you just have 2x4 ceiling joists, probably would be a good idea to put a tank over a wall for support, or add some crossing 2x4s to spread the weight. Really depends on how much weight you put up there (30 gallons vs 55 gallons or more) and its distribution.
Hope that helps clarify my setup. Let me know if you have other questions.
Have the wife/daughter hand pump the water into the toilet every time they flush and maybe they will consider the outhouse as an alternative ;>).
Cheers,
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SCSJeff
Member
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# Posted: 13 Sep 2017 09:50pm
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Attached are pics of the eves and the ceiling joists below that I'm debating for the water storage. I'd have to be able to fit the tank (or tanks) between the knee wall studs. But, I think I could probably get at least 100 gallons of storage up there. Is it possible to use gravity feed and have a shurflo inline at the same time? For example if the power is off, will gravity feed still work for flushing toilets and washing hands? Or does the pump have a check valve in it that won't let water flow through it?
Ideally, I'd like to keep the investment in equipment that I already have. So hence that's why I'm thinking about options to work with/around the setup rather than replacing it. For example, I really don't mind the standard hot water heater. Other than taking up space, it only takes about an hour to heat the water and it's relatively bullet proof and easy to drain.
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Atlincabin
Member
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# Posted: 14 Sep 2017 12:10am
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Looks like a palace up there. And looks like at least 2x8 joists, maybe 2x10. I would think you should have no issues with 100 gallons of water unless the joists are rotten or something. Would spread the weight if you added a sheet of 3/4-inch plywood under the tank(s). Poly tanks come in various sizes and shapes (google polyethylene tanks) but probably the cheapest solution is the local surplus store that will likely have poly barrels of various sizes. Spacing on the kneewalls looks wide enough to fit most anything into that space behind them.
Yes, the system will gravity feed through a shurflo pump. Should work to wash hands and will fill the toilet (albeit much slower than with a pressurized system). The main use for a pressurized system (in my opinion) is for anything that requires a significant water flow (like an instant hot water system). It would probably still gravity flow ok for a minimalist shower if you are using a conventional hot water tank.
Worth noting is that if you use a poly tank setup, it should be sanitized every so often (I do mine annually) by adding some bleach to your water and letting it sit for a day or so. There are some websites that give recipes for bleach to water ratio.
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SCSJeff
Member
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# Posted: 14 Sep 2017 08:52pm
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Hey everyone,
Thanks for all the awesome advice! I will definitely look harder at getting 1 or 2 poly tanks upstairs in the eves. (I'll have to measure the next time I'm up there)
skootamattaschmidty, that's exactly what I'm looking for... several days when I'm on my own and run the big genny for the well pump once or twice a day for when there's a group!
So here's a scenario...
If I keep the pressure tank downstairs, have the storage tanks upstairs in the eve, and have a shurflo inline between the two, under normal circumstances where I have active power to the shurflo, the shurflo will pump up the pressure tank whenever the pressure drops below the low pressure switch setting.
But, what happens if:
The pressure tank drops down below the pressure switch low setting and I don't have any power going to the shurflo at that time. Will gravity be able to continue to feed water through the pressure tank, albeit at whatever low pressure that may be?
Thanks again everyone!
Jeff
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Atlincabin
Member
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# Posted: 15 Sep 2017 12:10am
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Yes, gravity will feed through the shurflo pump (at least all the ones I've ever used) even with power off. If you want to be sure, ask the shurflo folks directly once you have decided on a model.
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SCSJeff
Member
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# Posted: 15 Sep 2017 11:51am
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Quoting: Atlincabin Yes, gravity will feed through the shurflo pump
But, will it also gravity flow through the pressure tank if I keep that?
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Atlincabin
Member
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# Posted: 15 Sep 2017 11:50pm
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Yes, presuming your storage tank is higher than the pressure tank (looks to be the case in your setup). It may be slow, but will feed through. The more pipe distance and number of corners you have the slower the feed (there is friction between the water and pipes) but eventually any water higher in the system will drain out to the lowest point that is open.
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SCSJeff
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# Posted: 17 Sep 2017 10:22pm
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Just got back from the cabin. Apparently the amount of room in those eves is not as large as the picture makes it look. Took some measurements and I can't fit anything worth while behind the knee wall. However, I'm really liking the idea of having gravity feed for washing hands and flushing toilet. So, I may just set a 100+ gallon tank in the living area. I have one spot near the top of the steps that is just kind of dead space. I could set it there and maybe set or build a table top over it..
Atlincabin, Thanks so much for all you input and advice. And thanks to everyone else for your feedback. I think I have a working plan now that won't cost me a ton of money re-engineering things.
Jeff
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SCSJeff
Member
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# Posted: 18 Sep 2017 09:54pm
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Update:
After more thought... Others have scared me a bit from setting that much weight upstairs (not to mention, the wife probably won't like it sitting visible in the bedroom anyway). In addition, apparently at only 9' up, the gravity flow will be extremely minimal and possibly not really that effective?
So, I think I've decided to just remove the existing pressure tank. (Try to sell it on Craigslist). That way I can put up to a 100-150 gallon water tank in the same spot, add a Shurflo with an accumulator tank. I can then run the Shurflo off my existing solar (or small generator if necessary) and still be in it for less money than upgrading to a larger pressure tank (and still only have maybe 20-30 gallons of usable water)
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SCSJeff
Member
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# Posted: 9 Oct 2018 10:51am
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Update: System Completed!
Replaced Pressure Tank w/ Tractor Supply 65 Gallon holding tank. Installed manual switch for 240v Deep Well Pump. Flip switch to fill tank (when big generator is running). I do have to fill it twice as I also have to run the Shurflo to fill up the hot water tank and pressurize the lines. Total time about 15-20 minutes.
Installed small pressure tank (instead of Shurflo Accumulator, it was half the price and holds more water as well)
Shurflo is quieter than I expected. With small pressure tank, can run the faucet to wash hands, etc. without immediately kicking off the pump.
Shurflo runs off inverter with no issue! Although, I do usually have the small inverter generator running while showering just to save the batteries.
Replaced shower head with low flow shower head.
In addition, this setup will save me having to keep a generator running and electric heat tape around the well line coming into the cabin during freezing weather. (I have a curb drain that I can drain down the well line with after filling the storage tank)
Got a workout this past weekend. From Friday night to Sunday afternoon, we had 6 people. 6 Showers, as much toilet flushing as necessary and did dishes twice. All without having to fire up big generator! Grant it, we used about all the water by the time we were leaving. But, I'm super happy with the end results.
Thanks for all the help/info from this forum!
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redwolfguild
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# Posted: 9 Oct 2018 02:25pm
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SCSJeff - That is a good looking system and from your report gave you exactly what you were looking for. I think you will be happy with that system for a while.
One of my neighbors did the same thing, and to avoid running the generator for showers, he added a dedicated 12-volt battery that he hooked up to a 100Watt solar panel and MPPT charge controller (my old solar set up when I upgraded) just to run his Shurflo pump. Because of the limited use of the pump, his battery stays charged most of the day. He and his wife live their full time and shower every day and after 2 year he is still using the same flooded lead-acid car battery. Did I mention he is a frugal bastard?
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SCSJeff
Member
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# Posted: 10 Oct 2018 01:32pm
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RedWolfGuild,
Thanks!
Should have mentioned, that I installed the AC version of the Shurflo. I guess I could still dedicate a battery to it, but then would also need another inverter... As it is, I'm really probably fine running it off my current battery setup. But, when we're all taking showers, we usually have the TV on, all extra kitchen lights (that aren't on solar) on, and maybe even running the vacuum. So, I generally have the small genny running anyway.
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redwolfguild
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# Posted: 10 Oct 2018 08:50pm
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SCSJeff - 
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