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adamclay
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# Posted: 29 Dec 2010 04:29am
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The cabin I am building is going to be off-grid with no electricity, just propane. I would prefer not to run a generator in order to run a well pump, and solar is unavailable in the area because of the dark winter days and high snow load.
I have found manual well pumps out there that go down to 300 feet, and can put out 5 GPM. My question is, how does this tie into a water pressure system? Can these manual pumps be used with a normal water pressure tank? Like a standard 40/60 PSI tank. It seems like every well in the whole world now runs on a well pump and I am having a heck of a time finding any info about pressurizing a system. Since it will just be my wife and I in the house, we will probably only use about 20 gallons of water a day, if that. We will have all very-low-flow toilets, showers, faucets, etc. I don't mind going outside every single day to pump the well for 20-30 minutes throughout the day. Just wondering if anyone has any info on how we could achieve this. And is the pressure can generally burried, or can it also be stored inside?
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mlhall
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# Posted: 29 Dec 2010 04:44am
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I believe most of these manual pumps. At least all the ones I am familiar with, are only useful for pulling water out of a well at the imediate time.
Since you are only (as stated) useing a small amount at a time. You might consider using one of these pumps to fill a small cisterne (say 15 to 20 gallon) that can be easily pressureized with a 12 V pump.
You would then have the larger well as a permanent water source.
Of course you could always invest money in solar equipment and batteries with inverter to operate a 120V well pump. But I suspect such a system may well become very expensive!
Hope this helps,
Matt H.
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larryh
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# Posted: 29 Dec 2010 09:15am
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You can still buy a "Force Pump" which is like a standard hand well upright pump but also has a switch on it to force water to an elevated tank or other location within a 100 feet. I used mine to pump water from the cistern that originally was here into a gravity tank I installed in the attic. It was fairly easy to pump and I had a 45 gallon tank in the attic. Even with a flush older style toilet it would usually last a day per filling. I have city water now, but the septic system quit working and so I have built a "sawdust potty" which I am rather surprised at how well it works, even if a bit of trouble. No water needed would be the advantage in your situation.
To create a good gravity system you need to elevate the tank to the highest point you can in your home. Then I ran 1" lines from it to the few water outlets I had including a hot water tank that heated though my cook stove. It would run the shower in the bath with only about a 10' head above the heater. Its a daunting thing but there are very simple layouts for gravity systems if you condense the placements of your needs. I simply now get water from a faucet in the kitchen near the floor in the incoming line. I carry it to all the other uses. If you had a tank of your size even just at the top of a room an use large lines to say the tub and sink, it would provide running water at no pressure. Its also possible to heat water though a heating stove or cookstove, but it takes proper set ups to be sure they are safe from explosions.
If you should wish to discuss these possibilities off line let me know.
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larryh
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# Posted: 29 Dec 2010 09:20am
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I should have said a bit more about the force pumps. It has a exit for the water about two feet below the level of the foot of the pump on the well or cistern. That second outlet then can be installed to a pipe underground to force the water to the house in freezing weather. The other outlet is as usual on top of the well.
If I were to reinstall it I would spend the time to make it set up so the pump was offset to the well or cistern so that you could do maintenance without hanging over the water which was a real problem when you needed to replace the leather valve that forces the water upward. You would need a space large enough with a covered access so that you could work on it while in a pit next to the pump. I hope that makes sense. Otherwise you would have to pull the whole pump to work on it and they are heavy and if loaded with pipe are really heavy.
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 29 Dec 2010 10:49am
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We use a RV type water tank under the kitchen counter along with an Shurflo RV pump (12VDC) to supply water to the sink and shower. There is no pressure tank, the pump has a sensor that turns the pump on and off when a faucet is opened and closed. It does require some power but I like it better than depending on gravity. Gravity flow gives you 0.43 PSI per foot of elevation difference from water height to point of use.
I have a 1.5" diameter hose connecting the manual pump to an inlet fitting on the cabin wall to fill the tank. I ran a vent pipe from the inside tank out the wall. When I pump the tank full I can tell by the sound of the displaced air when the tank is full. With the small elevation difference from the pump to the tank it has not been necessary to use a backflow preventer. In freezing weather though the hose must be drained between uses though.
this was before I trimmed the hose to a usable length
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larryh
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# Posted: 29 Dec 2010 01:14pm
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Gravity flow depends on how large a pipe you use. A half inch line is many times less capable of providing better pressure than an inch one. So the books I read on the subject all said to use the largest pipe for the supply lines and then branch off to smaller ones at the area of use. I had nothing but that tank in the attic of story and a half farm house and it would provide the shower with enough pressure to use it, not like high pressure of course but it served its purpose. Plus no noisy pumps to tolerate. I actually could fill a pitcher faster with the gravity system than with the old pump and pressure tank I had. Partly because of the larger lines and when you use a gravity system you have to be sure and get facets with have large interior valves to allow for better flow. If you leave the water restrictors in and use the wrong type of new facets it would be slow to work, but then my city water I was using here before the drains all failed was slow to fill though those newer type parts as well.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 29 Dec 2010 01:50pm
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I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I like correct terminology. Yes you get better flow, more volume, with a larger pipe, but that has no effect on the pressure. A twelve inch pipe from a tank 10 feet above will deliver a deluge compared to a 1/2 inch pipe. But a gauge at the outlet will show 4.3 PSI with both size pipes. Pressure and flow are related but not the same. Depending on use, high volume can help make up for low pressure, filling a pail for example. However, if there is something like an on demand heater, some of those require a certain pressure to function as well as a certain flow.
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larryh
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# Posted: 29 Dec 2010 02:46pm
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Sorry that I am not really and expert just trying to tell how it worked for me. And since I shun most things that add to the cost of installation I also avoid something like an on demand water heater. Not that I am probably not paying more for oil to heat the water on my stove. However the range boiler, (correct terminology), that I added to the cookstove did heat lots of very hot water when the wood cooking stove was operating.
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