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Devon7
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# Posted: 17 Apr 2011 10:43pm
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For those that are more technical than myself the details for the chest freezer -fridge conversion are best found by goggling ENERGY EFFICIENT REFRIGERATION MT BEST AUSTRALIA
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RnR
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# Posted: 18 Apr 2011 10:59am
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PicketyCat, thanks for posting about your experience. Devon7, I had heard of this as well and wonder why there aren't such refrigerators for sale out there instead of having to go through the trouble of converting one.
We were discussing the refrigerator and cellar topic and recalled an experience when we were in Paris 2 years ago (which was one of those lilfetime dream come true vacations). we were staying witha friend and were eating in a times and had to go grocery shopping and we remember looking high and low for eggs. We didn't find them at first because we were looking for them in refrigerators, but then we stumbled onto a stack of them in the middle of the store totally unrefrigerated. We assumed that they probably stayed cool enough, and figured that Parisians probably buy fresh eggs every week or every couple of days so they don't have time to go bad. The store probably replenishes them frequently so they are always fresh. This also explains how Europeans in general do fine with tiny refrigerators that we would consider bar-sized. There were also lots of fresh eggs for sale in outdoor markets just in the open air where you could buy them by the unit. It's a like a shift in the way you think about buying food and storying your food. I've also read some blogs about "living without a refrigerator" and it really does make you think. I could maybe, for instance, inquire at one of the places we pass on the way to the cabin that has a "fresh eggs" sign and just buy what we need for that weekend, you know? it gets you thinking...
Anyhow I'm really appreciating the posts here and especially those from Jorta and PicketyCat who are actually out there living it and speaking from experience. Those of us in northern climates like Canada and the northern United States really could implement these types of things.
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PlicketyCat
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# Posted: 28 Apr 2011 03:20pm
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Eggs are kind of tricky. If the eggs haven't been washed, they'll still have the anti-microbial coating (the "bloom") from when they were laid. An unwashed egg kept in a cool place can last unrefrigerated for several months.
You can find some Farmer's Markets and local roadside farmstands that don't wash their eggs (just wipe off any really gross "dirt").
Most grocery store eggs are washed, so their shells are permeable to microbes and dehydration... they don't last very long outside the refrigerator, maybe a week or two. But you can treat them with mineral oil or waterglass to "reseal" the shells and extend their shelf-life to a couple of months.
RnR does have a point though, if you eat more fresh foods when they are in season, you can drastically reduce the need for additional storage and refrigeration. If you're lucky enough to be able to produce these yourself or have a local farmer nearby where it's cost/time/fuel efficient to shop every couple of days, you can live without a large refrigerator.
Eat fresh. Eat local. Eat in season. The tenets of the 100-Mile/Locavore Diet saves on so many fronts, it's not just a "Green" thing.
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Erins#1Mom
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# Posted: 28 Apr 2011 06:15pm
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PlicketyCat,
Thanks for the info. My Mom raises chickens and I need to check if she washes them. I didn't know this!
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RnR
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# Posted: 28 Apr 2011 08:24pm
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This whole egg thing is absolutely fascinating, thanks PlicketyCat!
Similar imformation is available on other forums as well. Apparently eggs in europe are not washed to death like they are in N-A so they last that much longer without refrigeration. The other notable perishable staple that comes to mind is milk which you can also get canned or in powder form. I really only need it for my coffee anyway. I almost bought coffee whitener once until I read the label and saw that it's loaded with artery-clogging hydrogenated fat!
Very lucky Erins#1Mom! My dad used to have chickens and I really miss the qualtiy of those eggs.
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PlicketyCat
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2011 01:19am
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Hard cheeses, butter and hard/dry salami are also items that don't need refrigeration overkill... cool & dry is usually good enough if you can keep the covered so mold doesn't grow on them. Real mayonnaise (egg, oil & lemon/vinegar), buttermilk, sour cream, and active culture yogurt don't need to be refrigerated either, they stay good at cooler room temperatures for a week or so. Most condiments, salsa/chutney, and jam/jelly don't need refrigeration either.
I use canned evaporated milk or powdered milk for almost everything. I only get ultra-pasteurized shelf stable boxed milk (Real Fresh brand) for cold cereal... for some reason I don't like the flavor of the other milks for cold cereal; but can't stand the taste of the box milk to drink or cook with.
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dropkick
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# Posted: 8 May 2011 04:24am
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Quoting: PlicketyCat Real mayonnaise (egg, oil & lemon/vinegar), buttermilk, sour cream, and active culture yogurt don't need to be refrigerated either, they stay good at cooler room temperatures for a week or so.
THE ABOVE ADVICE COULD KILL YOU!
Every year people still die from botulism poisoning. This is normally caused by eating mayonnaise based salads that have been left at room temperature or warmer for more than 4 hours.
- Potato salad at picnics is famous for this.
The egg in mayonnaise is the perfect medium for growing the botulism bacteria. The waste they leave behind paralyzes the victim and makes them smother.
Store bought mayo is also safer than homemade as it reaches higher temperatures before being canned and that kills all the bugs.
You can't do this with homemade as the mayonnaise would break and you'd end up with a clotted mess.
Homemade mayonnaise is only supposed to be kept in a refrigerator for 3 days before you throw it away.
I have cooked professionally for over 20 years. I was trained to cook by the Army and later attended a civilian cooking school for 2 and 1/2 years to become certified. I have a lot of training in this field and know sanitation backward and forward.
You should believe what I just told you.
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PlicketyCat
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# Posted: 8 May 2011 05:09am - Edited by: PlicketyCat
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Clostridium botulinum, the bacterium that produces the toxins that cause botulism, is primarily anaerobic... meaning it requires an oxygen-free environment to thrive. Additionally it can only survive in a low-acid environment. This is why we must pressure can low-acid foods in order to kill the spores when we make the can/jar air-tight.
Botulism poisoning is extremely rare, but it is very dangerous and can be fatal if an antitoxin isn't administered in time.
Mayonnaise... real mayonnaise made with oil, egg and lemon juice or vinegar is a high-acid food and not a host environment for botulism. Foods made with mayonnaise and then sealed in airtight containers (such as store-bought potato salad) may become a better environment because the other food lowers the acid level (potatoes, for example, are very low-acid foods).
However, there are several cases of foodborne illnesses attributed to mayonnaise-based salads, particularly those found closer to room temperature like on buffet lines and salad bars. In *a few* cases the culprit is the mayonnaise, as eggs can be a medium for Salmonella and rarely for Campylobacter (neither one of these survive well in the high acid environment in real mayo). In most cases where these two are found, it is the eggs in egg salad (or the chicken in chicken salad) that are found to be the culprits since they lowered the acid level. Poisoning from seafood or tuna salad is normally attributed to scromboid or ciguatera (Morganella morganii and Vibrio parahaemolyticus are most common). Staphylococcal food poisoning occurs most often in foods that require hand preparation, such as potato salad, ham salad and sandwich spreads. Sometimes these types of foods are left at room temperature for long periods of time, allowing the bacteria to grow and produce toxin.
If you are concerned about the possibility that your food, mayonnaise or whatever, may be contaminated by any of the known pathogens causing foodborne illness, please follow the CDC/USDA recommended handling and storage methods. If you can't follow these recommendations because you live off-grid and don't have refrigeration available to you, know the risks and use your best judgment regarding food safety.
Remember that there is a world of difference between a cool pantry in a private home and a sunny picnic table in summer or a large kitchen/buffet in a large/public food establishment.
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RnR
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# Posted: 19 May 2011 10:37am
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I found canned cream at the grocery store! It was in the imported foods section of my grocery store), it's one of those half-size cans with a peel-away lid, had the image of a cow on it. I think it was on sale at $1.49. We used a can at home to top-off a dessert and it was really good! I bought a couple to keep at the cabin.
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PlicketyCat
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# Posted: 19 May 2011 11:59am
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Yes, you can find a few additional imported canned dairy products that aren't made in the US for some reason. Canned cream from England, canned butter from New Zealand, and canned cheddar-style cheese from Australia... just to name a few sitting in my pantry right now. They're great additions to the evaporated milk and condensed milk you can find here in the States.
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RnR
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# Posted: 5 Jan 2012 11:19am
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I wanted to share that I was recently on the futureshop.ca web site, and was shocked when saw a 32 inch Toshiba LED television which uses only 25 watts of electricity! and 0.6 watts on standby (WebID: 10167401) I think that these new LED televisions are opening up all kinds of new possibilities for off-gridders because you can now get a decent sized television which uses no more power than 2 compact fluorescent light bulbs, and therefore aren't as big a drain on your off-grid energy system.
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AYP1909
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# Posted: 23 Jan 2012 11:11am
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Nothing like a foot of wet snow covered by an inch of ice and topped off with 50 mph winds to help us experience living without electricity. The biggest problem is our reliance on water that comes from a well that needs a pump that requires electricity. Thankfully, the power came back on yesterday.
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coffeekittie
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# Posted: 17 Feb 2012 06:41pm
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Hi everyone.
I'm actively learning skills for living out on some land I purchased up north in the mountains. I don't live without electricity yet, but I am depending on it much less. I have chickens and don't wash the eggs, storing them in a cool dry corner. I am able to keep a lot of food good to eat this way - no fridge. For cooking and heat I have an Origo dual burner alcohol stove: http://www.swego.com/stoves_alcohol.htm. My deepest desire for heat and cooking however, is this: http://marinestove.com/halibutinfo.htm. I have learned how to use many hand and portable power tools, including chainsaws, and am currently in the process of building a tiny home. LED lights, laptops miserly in their watt usage, and battery operated items help with my low power use. I use rechargeable batteries and am looking into how to recharge them with a tiny solar panel designed for that purpose. I already know animal husbandry which is a big plus, but I have to learn how to garden  . I have a young half-draft horse for back country riding in any kind of weather.... I could go on, but what I'm trying to share is there are many ways of living with less or even no electricity, and living enjoyably. It takes an incredible change of viewpoint. I'd highly recommend that everyone wanting to make a huge lifestyle change do it in steps, not a single giant leap. Take your time and really throw yourself into each new stage of living. Blah sorry I talk too much!
Parker
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Just
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# Posted: 17 Feb 2012 07:22pm
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we all enjoy listening.any time . welcome !
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coffeekittie
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2012 05:01am
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Thank you, Just!
As a single woman, I especially have to consider what is necessary for off-grid, "wilderness" living. I've given much thought to this, and I definitely plan on solar power as I want some comforts such as a laptop for entertainment. Where my property is located, I'll have no need for a refrigerator or A/C. What with heating and cooking done by alcohol stove and/or wood stove, my electrical needs are low.
Parker
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hattie
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2012 12:50pm
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Quoting: coffeekittie do it in steps, not a single giant leap. Take your time and really throw yourself into each new stage of living.
Excellent advice!!!! Keep us in the loop how you are progressing. I, for one, really want to read about your adventures with less electricity!
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Just
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2012 02:56pm
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coffeekittie
coffee, if you are not going to have a fridge you may want to incorporate
some sort of cold celler for storage. hattie has one of the best here maybe she could share. a pic or some thoughts ???
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Brknarow
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2012 03:57pm - Edited by: Brknarow
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Something you may want to consider is an old fashioned ice box and a solar powered chest freezer. Sundanzer makes one (they think a lot of it btw) that, they say, will run off a single 75watt solar panel. You could use the freezer to keep and rotate jugs of ice into the ice box and, bonus, a chest freezer for...urrr...pizza rolls and such. I read that it's so well insulated that it will run off just the panel and stay cool for three days without a battery. This is all from research and only theory. I'm not sure how well an ice box even works and do not nor ever have known anyone who's used one.
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hattie
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2012 06:02pm - Edited by: hattie
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Our cold room is under our house and is small (5' X 8' with a 6' 4" ceiling). During the winter months it is important to keep the moisture out of the air. We use a non-electric, chemical dehumidifier called Ro-Tyme Moisture Magnet. You just dump out the tray as it fills with water and it seems to work quite well in the small cold room. We also have a sump pump down there because the water table is so high where we live, the cold room would flood each spring without it. Here are some photos of the coldroom that I just took.
We have some large bins that we keep flour, sugar and dog food in.
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Preserves, etc. that we store down there.
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hattie
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2012 06:10pm
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In the old days, locals used to cut big chunks of ice out of the lake nearby. They all had ice houses. The big pieces of ice were put in the ice house and covered in hay. Pieces of ice would be chopped off the big chunks as needed and put in a non-electric ice box to keep food cold. They say that the ice in the ice houses would keep all year under the hay.
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