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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 17 Dec 2016 12:09pm
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Transporting propane on it's side ? NOT a good idea as that has a bad effect on the safety valves and CAN cause them to fail. Might as well have a smoke while hooking up the tanks too then.... There are tanks designed & valved for being on their sides but that is not STD 20-30 Lb Tanks unlike special application tanks like those on forklifts or other vehicular applications.
Sorry if anyone is offended because they have been lucky in the past but I LIKE Julie and want her to be safe at all times.
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 17 Dec 2016 12:37pm
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Huh
did not know that
wunner why no warning label
no offense taken
thanks Steve
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 17 Dec 2016 12:45pm
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I've been away a bit. Thought I'd add to the rumble. I'll say mostly the same thing, just in a different way.
So. Creeky's 3 steps to a warm shabin
1: Diversity is beautiful
For my shack. I've gone the popular vented propane / wood stove / tonnes of insulation route.
My 240 sq ft "studio" uses 2 100lbers/winter. Plus the wood stove. Plus the heat from cooking. I keep it around 74 in the day. Falls to 60-65 at night.
Nice thing about the wood stove is that you get heat. Keep hot water on the stove at all times. Cook stuff. Great for reheating microwave meals etc. Cornbread!
2. Get the right stuff!
what happened is yer burning the wrong wood. You need dry wood. If you're drying wood inside you're just steaming wood. Not heating your house. Buy some wood. Its a tough expense for this winter. But it'll avoid a lot of pain.
See if you can find some used 4x8 polyiso insulation sheets. Put them on the ceiling first. You've insulated the shabin ya? Spray foam the gaps. Nice and tight saves tonnes of money.
Vented propane heaters are the ticket. No night time wood fills. I like 100lbers. Call your local propane distributor. Their truck may well come directly to your home and fill the tanks (mine does!). A friend rents 2 250lbers from the propane company that they installed. With propane he heats his shabin for 300 bucks.
The ashley stoves are good. williams too. If you need 20k btu for 240 sq ft. you don't have enough insulation (imho). however, you are where you is right. so
here's an amazon deal
3. Enjoy.
I'm sure you already have a smoke, co2 and co detector. So nothing to add there. Enjoy your warm shabin. And keep adding insulation. Curtains. Blankets at the base of the door. Over the door. Etc.
Hope this helps.
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 17 Dec 2016 12:48pm
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PS-tonnes of folks move 100lb tanks on their side. ummm. engineers know we're all ideeots. they take care of us. thx guyz!
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groingo
Member
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# Posted: 17 Dec 2016 01:46pm
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Since this is just a temporary place I would look for something that you could use in either place which would be a win win.
My personal preference is propane for heat and for cooking....easy, stable with few things to wear out and very cost effective.
The key ingredient is if you're not comfortable life sucks....so do what you have too!
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Julie2Oregon
Member
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# Posted: 17 Dec 2016 05:16pm
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Well, I don't want to jinx this but I think I've passed the learning curve on the wood stove. It got dang cold last night and I kept a good blaze going through it, and remain perfectly warm and content as I type this.
But, yeah, it does take more frequent and hands-on management than I realized. Many lessons learned.
When it's functioning well, I prefer the stove to propane. I do cook on it, it has a hot water tank with ready hot water for cooking, hot drinks, dishes, and bathing, and a warming tray, too. The one thing does a LOT. I like that.
But when I couldn't sustain a fire, my misery index was pretty high.
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littlesalmon4
Member
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# Posted: 17 Dec 2016 06:32pm
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No vendor in our area will let you leave with a 100lb propane tank on its side.
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 17 Dec 2016 06:58pm
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There is a very good reason that the portable cylinders that have been designed to stand vertically should not be transported on their side. It is not that being on the side can harm the safety release valve. Rather the reason is that IF the safety valve is activated due to excessively high tank pressure the safety valve will vent liquid propane.
The first issue with that is liquid propane contacting bare skin will freeze skin/flesh. The second issue is liquid propane will almost instantly change into propane vapor. There is a 270 times increase in volume when it passes from liquid to gaseous. If in an enclosed space and if there is ignition that = a big explosion. My propane dealer has a copy of an old article that shows a car with the roof punched up, all the glass missing and burnt. All because someone was carrying a 20# cylinder on its side in the back seat.
The only saving factor is if the cylinder is being transported in cold weather, especially on a sled or whatever over the snow, there is reduced danger from a warm/hot weather induced over pressure. However, I simply refuse to transport them on their sides. Explosions with sideways cylinders are rare but there are very real dangers. Why take a chance?
No warning labels on cylinders.... I'm surprised anyone here would even ask about that, this being a place where government intervention on everyday life is abhorred.
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 17 Dec 2016 07:46pm
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Quoting: MtnDon No warning labels on cylinders.... I'm surprised anyone here would even ask about that, this being a place where government intervention on everyday life is abhorred.
I was being somewhat facetious….
But
I do have a huge concern
I been tipping tanks for…ever
Did NOT know of the danger
I did just now read up
Thing is, why why why are the bottoms designed so?
Not the most stable, gotta say.
One more thing and we’ll get back to J2O’s situation;
The ‘tipping’ danger is also @ 45°…right?
(I luv to drag ‘em that way when my back is @ 45°….)
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paulz
Member
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# Posted: 17 Dec 2016 08:05pm
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So is it a bad idea to be refilling the 1lb. Coleman green tanks fitted to a 20lb. tank turned upside down?
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 17 Dec 2016 08:41pm
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Quoting: Gary O I was being somewhat facetious….
Often I can not tell.... so I go for the better safe than sorry thing; whatever.
Quoting: paulz So is it a bad idea to be refilling the 1lb. Coleman green tanks fitted to a 20lb. tank turned upside down?
Probably not a big deal... especially with virtually all 20 pounders now having a OPD valve. Those make it pretty much impossible to overfill. Now there should be plenty of expansion space inside the tank no matter how hot the weather. Years ago there was a propane service in a small UT town who would, on request, fill the cylinders to their max. I think it was things like that that helped push the OPD into the regulatory arena.
I've never liked the idea of reusing a small cylinder that was designed as a throw away. But to each their own I suppose.
I use hand trucks for moving them around when they are too big/heavy for comfortable carrying.
Note: OPD's are only required on 4 to 40# sizes. The 100's are exempt so still could be overfilled by a careless operator or intentionally. Not a good idea though.
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littlesalmon4
Member
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# Posted: 17 Dec 2016 11:07pm
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You can now purchase 1lb bottles that are designed to be filled from a 20lb tank
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 18 Dec 2016 12:20am
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As I understand it. The concern with tanks on the side has to do with them being damaged and taking off rocket style.
Had a 100 lb er on its side all summer. Stood it up. Hooked it up. No problem.
Saw a major govment complex lose heat during a deep freeze. They were gang sleddng tanks behind trucks.
Still. I think the fine here is 400 if you're caught hauling horizontal.
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 18 Dec 2016 12:54am
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Quoting: creeky As I understand it. The concern with tanks on the side has to do with them being damaged and taking off rocket style.
A concern but not the real reason....
a CDN resource ..... "Cylinders must be used, transported, and stored in the position/orientation for which they were designed. This ensures that the pressure relieve valve will activate correctly if the cylinder has been overfilled or is exposed to excessive heat."
and....
http://www.propane101.com/propanecylinderstorage.htm
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NorthRick
Member
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# Posted: 18 Dec 2016 12:49pm
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Quoting: MtnDon The only saving factor is if the cylinder is being transported in cold weather, especially on a sled or whatever over the snow, there is reduced danger from a warm/hot weather induced over pressure. However, I simply refuse to transport them on their sides. Explosions with sideways cylinders are rare but there are very real dangers. Why take a chance?
Because there is no practical way to haul a 100# tank over a narrow bumpy trail through the woods. Our cabin is off road and requires either feet, an ATV, or a snowmobile to get to it. I haul 100# tanks laying on their sides in a sled approximately 3 miles. The sled is not enclosed. I have never had a tank vent unexpectedly and if one did, I wouldn't go anywhere near it until it stopped.
Also, once I get to the cabin, I do like Gary does and slide the tank on it's side on the snow around to the back side of the cabin. Once there, it goes upright and is chained to the cabin to stay that way. It is also strapped upright in my truck when being transported over the road.
My guess on the car that exploded is that it was sitting in the sun, windows up, and the interior got really hot causing the tank pressure to reach a point where the safety valve opened. The way I handle my tanks, that's just not going to happen and I'm not worried about my (or others) safety.
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DaveBell
Moderator
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# Posted: 18 Dec 2016 03:54pm - Edited by: DaveBell
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How much insulation do you have in the cabin? On all six sides? Are the windows single pane? May need to plastic wrap/seal the windows. Is there a seal around the door? I see your wood stove link says holds heat 4-5 hours. I'm not sure that stove is enough beef for Oregon. Splinters in fingers. Leather gloves. Can you post pictures? I see snow on the car but not on the cabin. Sign of not enough insulation. I think you are just south of Chiloquin, OR. so maybe only four months to go. My email is davesc58@verizon.net. I'm very concerned.
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groingo
Member
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# Posted: 19 Dec 2016 11:59am
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Were I you I would take the offer up on the fifth wheel but locate it on a property with power and less snow and stay there until spring...your shed does not look ready for a hard winter and the possibility of you getting stranded due to frigid weather and snow looks high.
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DaveBell
Moderator
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# Posted: 20 Dec 2016 07:54am
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I'm a little less worried now. She's not out in the boonies by herself.
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toyota_mdt_tech
Member
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# Posted: 20 Dec 2016 08:53am
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Quoting: DaveBell I'm a little less worried now. She's not out in the boonies by herself.
Agreed, she has befriended many locals already and like small town atmosphere these areas are, they are going to help her, look out for her, they have already pitched in a bunch of dry wood. They know of her conditions, so you can bet, things will be fine. After the spring thaw, you know she will be going wide open on her permanent place. Its going to be sweet. 
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Julie2Oregon
Member
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# Posted: 20 Dec 2016 02:04pm
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DaveBell
Yeah, that photo was taken before the insulation went in. Now, I have insulation and interior walls up. It was kinda neat -- when I was in process with the ceiling insulation, we got snow and you could literally tell from the outside what part I had finished and what part remained to be done from the snow on the roof. Or lack thereof. So it's working. I put Roxul rock wool in the walls, too.
I came through our first big snow -- a foot of it from one storm -- just fine. Single-digit temos OK, too. There's been a learning curve but you can never fully know how to live the life until you are actually living it.
As Toyota said, I've made friends and we all help each other. No one has this alone. It's a really neat little community. I've helped out, too, giving rides to town to folks having car trouble.
And a neighbor plows out my driveway just because. 
I wish the shabin and mive could have been done earlier but that wasn't possible. So I've just dealt with reality.
I really can't wait for the main cabin to be built and NOT have to be off-grid but I'm fine for now. Sheltered, fed, warm. I have everything I need.
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Julie2Oregon
Member
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# Posted: 20 Dec 2016 02:33pm
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My pics don't post right, for some reason.
Anyhoo, no, I'm not near Chiloquin, I'm near Klamath Falls. Part of Klamath Falls by zip code. While that may not seem like a big deal distance-wise, weatherwise, it is. Chiloquin and areas north of it get MUCH colder with a lot more snow. Yep, I'll get my fair share due to the lake and mountains but not as bad as. what Gary and Cabi see, for instance. Plus, my place is maybe 300 yards off Highway 140, which ODOT clears to the max. Even after the big snow, we were able to drive to the city easily 2 days later. Yeah, I'm remote but I'm not even close to being isolated. There's a store, fire/rescue, even a couple of resorts nearby.
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 20 Dec 2016 03:20pm
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Couple comments-
I didn't see any posters talk about getting a large tank from the propane company. Fill it up at the beginning of the season and forget it. In Fire country it should be buried.
You don't want a woodstove that's too big in a small cabin, but the bigger the more wood it will hold, reducing how often it's loaded. Consider the smallest stove that will handle 16" logs, and be sure it's a very tight stove that can be dampened way down if nec.
I think woodstove with propane direct vent for backup is the best combination.
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rmak
Member
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# Posted: 21 Dec 2016 12:25pm
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Hi Julie! Haven't had a chance to congratulate you on your recent successes. Good for you.
I would just add one thing to bldginsp's statement on woodstoves from my experience.
I was going to buy a tiny marine woodstove used in sailboats because the square footage heating output of the stove matched my small cabin. The cost was off the charts, but I didn't want to overheat.
I wound up with a Jotul 602 who's heating capacity was about three times the size of my small place.
This stove works fine. I bought double walled stovepipe to reduce the amount of radiant heat from there. It takes about an hour to make the cabin comfortable when I first arrive if the outside temp is in the 20s-30s. A controlled small fire maintains the heat nicely.
So a little bigger than spec. woodstove seems to be the sweet spot. In my humble opinion, of course. A lot more affordable than the high tech ministoves too.
Take care and happy holidays!
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Julie2Oregon
Member
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# Posted: 21 Dec 2016 01:22pm - Edited by: Julie2Oregon
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rmak
Thanks! And happy holidays to you and yours!
I think you're right about my stove being undersized. I spent a cold, nearly sleepless night again last night due to not being able to sustain a fire, and the pattern is now apparent. Temperatures above 20° -- no problem. The fire burns well. Below 20 is when the problems start. I have a great fire started, it burns perfectly for up to a half-hour, then out it goes. Reviving it produces the same result.
Is it because it's a cylinder stove with no fire bricks inside? I don't know but very cold air seems to be anathema. I've fiddled with the damper, the air holes on the door, tried every combo possible but no dice. This stove is supposed to perform well in below-0 weather. Fat chance. Or maybe at lower altitudes? I dunno. I'm at 4100 feet. Not excessive.
I can't justify sinking more money into another wood stove for a shabin I'll only be living in for less than 6 months. I need my resources for my main build. But I have ordered an LP heater to get me through the winter.
I wish I could remove the wood stove, sell it for cheap and reclaim that space in my living area. I'm going to ask my friends if we can seal up that hole in the roof somehow. It's too cold for shingles to seal, I imagine.
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Bret
Member
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# Posted: 21 Dec 2016 01:48pm
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Just a thought. How tight is your abode? Maybe the stove is not getting enough replacement air up the flue to keep the fire going. Fresh air needs to come from somewhere to keep the draw up the chimney. Maybe yes or maybe not the problem. Worth a shot.
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Julie2Oregon
Member
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# Posted: 21 Dec 2016 02:09pm
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Hi Bret
Moderate, I guess. I have R-15 Roxul in the walls and the ceiling above the loft insulated plus a vapor barrier. Insulation around the door, too.
It just seems more than a coincidence that the stove fails on really cold nights but does fine during the day and other nights. I thought it might have to do with my land having very tall trees, which could alter the air current but that would always be a factor if it was the case.
I'm still trying to get a fire going. Kerosene fire starter cubes, paper and pine cones as kindling, nope, nothing will burn. Our "Real Feel" temperature is 10°. This is so frustrating.
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 21 Dec 2016 02:23pm
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A hand held propane torch works well for starting small wood stoves. Simply open the door and direct the flame
at the bottom of the wood piled in the stove , usually 1 or 2 min. with dry wood ..
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Bret
Member
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# Posted: 21 Dec 2016 02:23pm
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Try cracking a nearby window to see if that helps. No air, no go.
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Julie2Oregon
Member
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# Posted: 21 Dec 2016 02:42pm
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Just
I can most often get the fire to start, even to big blaze status. But when it's really cold, it goes out within a half-hour.
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 21 Dec 2016 02:59pm
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do you have a experienced neighbor that could come over and have a look , maybe somthing we are all missing.
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