| . 1 . 2 . >> |
| Author |
Message |
Julie2Oregon
Member
|
# Posted: 21 Nov 2016 12:35am
Reply
So I've read the manual that comes with my Champion generator and it says it needs to be grounded using copper wire, a big ole copper post driven into the ground, and that an electrician needs to do it. WHAT? To use maybe 700 watts per day running my small chest freezer and a few hours of TV?! Is there an easier way?
Also, how do y'all protect yours from rain and snow? I was going to pick up a corrugated steel panel tomorrow and attach it t the shabin sloped, with posts on the other end, so the precip slides off. Would that work?
|
|
DaveBell
Moderator
|
# Posted: 21 Nov 2016 01:58am
Reply
Quoting: Julie2Oregon Is there an easier way?
Earth ground and circuit breakers protect us from electric shock and electrical fire.
Here is the text from the Champion Generator web site:
-------------
"I am confused about the recommendation of a grounding rod attachment."
"The recommendation for a grounding rod is best used for a permanent location, such as outside of your house for emergency use. A copper rod driven into the ground and a copper wire attached from the rod to the generator frame will give you solid protection against electrical shock. A GFI (Ground Fault Interrupter) is also another attachment that is effective against electrical shock. It is recommended to speak with a licensed electrician if you are considering this type of permanent installation. If you are running your generator in shallow water areas, it is a must to attach the generator to a grounding rod."
--------------------
Note: The GFI outlet is connected to ground.
There are alternatives to the rod such as a wire grid and plates.
Here is a link with a discussion:
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r26381277-Impossible-to-install-ground-rod
You can Google "ground rod alternatives".
You can also check with local electricians who have installed grounding systems in the area. Some areas have very rocky conditions and warrant the use of alternative grounding systems that use wider area instead of deeper.
Here is a quote from another site:
"It is code to ground a generator, over 5000 watts, if memory serves me. I don't have a code book handy. If you are using the thing in the same spot most of the time, why not put in a rod? I read an article on this and the forensic inspector who wrote the article spoke highly of doing this. can you get by without it? Sure, most of the time. The other time will kill you. However, if it's raining, you have some high risk. He had investigated a death in these conditions."
|
|
Julie2Oregon
Member
|
# Posted: 21 Nov 2016 02:17am
Reply
Ah, so you don't need an electrician to come out to do the wire/rod thing? Geez, getting an electrician to come out to my land would cost almost as much as the generator did, if I could even get one to drive 28 miles into the forest/mountains for such a small job. Because, otherwise, I'm sure the guy I'm paying to help me set up could handle this.
That leads to another question. If the generator is fixed to the ground, how do you prevent theft when you're away? Pull up the rod, move it while you're gone, and then replant the rod?
Thanks, DaveBell!
|
|
DaveBell
Moderator
|
# Posted: 21 Nov 2016 02:51am - Edited by: DaveBell
Reply
Quoting: Julie2Oregon I'm sure the guy I'm paying to help me set up could handle this.
Sure, you get that rod eight feet in, Bob's your uncle. Run a ground wire to the cabin circuit breaker box and one to the genney.
(So try to put the circuit breaker box, the genny, and the ground rod on the same side of the cabin, like to back side)
It still might be worth a phone call or three to electricians and ask if they do the rods in the area or do they ever do plates because of rock.
For rods, Look at some Youtube Vids. They're some good ideas like digging half way with post hole diggers, then using water and a manual pile driver.
Quoting: Julie2Oregon If the generator is fixed to the ground, how do you prevent theft when you're away?
You can never prevent theft 100%, but we can sure make it a PITA for them to get it.
|
|
Julie2Oregon
Member
|
# Posted: 21 Nov 2016 03:14am
Reply
DaveBell
Hellz bellz, I didn't realize these "rods" were 8 feet long until I went to our Home Depot website to see if they had any. They do, but no way could we get something 8 feet down through volcanic rock eventually without major power equipment.
Heck, several feet more and I'd hit water for a shallow well. Not kidding!
The shabin is totally off-grid so there is no electric panel or wiring. Just the generator and cord for my very small electric needs at present.
So I went back to the gen's manual to see if I could find some clues to alternatives. Here's the quote:
"Your generator must be connected to an appropriate ground to help prevent electric shock. A ground terminal connected to the frame of the generator has been provided on the power panel.
"For remote grounding, connect a length of heavy gauge (12 AWG minimum) copper wire between the generator ground terminal and a copper rod driven into the ground. We strongly recommend consultation with a qualified electrician to ensure compliance with local electrical code."
Ok. Maybe I'm seeing what I want to see now, lol, but it sounds almost like it is grounded (via the frame) but you might need "remote" grounding in some cases?
HD doesn't have the plates. I may need to get to a specialty hardware place and see. But FAST. Winter arrives tomorrow evening.
|
|
DaveBell
Moderator
|
# Posted: 21 Nov 2016 03:25am
Reply
Looking at your pictures on the other thread, he should be able to put in (drill hole) the thread and bolt type of eye-bolt and then smash the hell out of the threads with a hammer under the shabbin so they cannot un-bolt it.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Crown-Bolt-1-2-in-x-6-in-Galvanized-Forged-Eye-Bolt-with-N ut-48216/203436070
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-3-8-in-x-1-ft-Galvanized-Proof-Coil-Chain-806686/ 204630512
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Master-Lock-Magnum-2-1-2-in-Solid-Body-Padlock-with-2-in-S hackle-M930XKADLHCCSEN/202260770
|
|
DaveBell
Moderator
|
# Posted: 21 Nov 2016 03:30am - Edited by: DaveBell
Reply
I didn't realize the shabbin was temporary. If you used an extension cord (like 14 AWG), used the power while you where there and awake, then unplugged it for sleeping and away, you could get away with no ground. You would be simulating the usage like construction crews. They don't use a ground for their genneys.
|
|
Julie2Oregon
Member
|
# Posted: 21 Nov 2016 04:58am
Reply
Thanks for looking up those products, Dave! I'm heading to HD in the morning, anyway. And can pick up some security measures.
Yeah, that's exactly how I'm going to use it. Cooking is propane and wood, lights are battery-op LEDs and solar, and heat is wood, with a Buddy propane heater, just in case.
The gen is only for a bit of TV and the chest freezer, which I plan on plugging in for 2 hours a couple of times during the day just to keep stuff frozen. I don't want to disturb the peace with a generator going a lot. Nor do I want to spend a small fortune on gas.
It would be nice not to have it staked in so I could bring it inside if the snow gets really heavy this winter. Haha, my frozen food could go outside in a cooler and snowbank, at that point!
When the main cabin is built, I could see having a proper shelter built for it, and then doing the ground, transfer switch, something more permanent in the event of power outages.
|
|
|
Julie2Oregon
Member
|
# Posted: 21 Nov 2016 05:31am
Reply
YIKES, another question! I found a GFCI indoor/outdor extension cord available locally. But it's short 2 feet long! I bought 2 regular outdoor extension cords. Should the GFCI one go at the genny or into the house, and is it OK to connect it to a cord that has a higher power rating?
|
|
Steve_S
Member
|
# Posted: 21 Nov 2016 07:21am
Reply
Julie please note that a 14 gauge extension is very "light" so PLEASE do thyself a major favour and get a heavy duty extension cord such as 10 or 12 gauge... The longer the run the heavier gauge the better.
To ground the Genny, you can drive the rod or use a plate (I used plates) and run the copper wire up and put a Quick Clip on the wire, so you can clip it to the genny's ground terminal. That way you can just unclip & store genny away as needed... no futsing around required.
Here is something that may be helpful for you.
|
|
DaveBell
Moderator
|
# Posted: 21 Nov 2016 08:05am - Edited by: DaveBell
Reply
http://www.homedepot.com/c/factors_to_consider_when_choosing_extension_cords_HT_BG_EL
25ft 14 AWG extension cord rated 14-15 amps.
14 AWG is Medium duty, not "Very light"
Julie, you don't have a ground. GFCI won't work.
If your extension cords are 16, 18, etc AWG, see if you can return and buy 14 or 12 AWG.
The lower the number, the higher the current and $.
|
|
DaveBell
Moderator
|
# Posted: 21 Nov 2016 08:21am - Edited by: DaveBell
Reply
FYI, the Buddy consumes oxygen. Hopefully your barn door is a little leaky. Mine almost killed me. But that was in a smaller, very air-tight space.
Can you put the freezer and woodstove at opposite ends?
|
|
Julie2Oregon
Member
|
# Posted: 21 Nov 2016 11:32am
Reply
Steve_S
I'm going to see if the locally-owned hardware store has the plates and stuff. Great customer service there. Thanks for the tips!
If they don't have it, I dunno. No generator? Electrical stuff freaks me out. If I had any idea this was.going to be problematic, I'd have worked around a generator somehow. 
|
|
Julie2Oregon
Member
|
# Posted: 21 Nov 2016 11:37am
Reply
DaveBell
I will have the Buddy next to a window that's cracked open if I need to use it. The door is very tight.
Yeah, the stove is a distance from the freezer.
|
|
toyota_mdt_tech
Member
|
# Posted: 21 Nov 2016 11:44am
Reply
Julie, grab a ground rod and then a slide hammer used to drive in those metal "T" post and drive it in. I know you will have rock not too far down, drive it in sideways.
Home Depot has the driver for $19.95
http://www.homedepot.com/p/HDX-Fence-Post-Driver-901147HD/204331909
Hey, if the Shabin builders are still on the site, maybe sweet talk them into driving the rod in for you? (well, as long as you guys are there, here is my slide hammer...) 
I would make sure the generator has some distance between it and the Shabin, ie CO poisoning. You would want it under a cover. Dont plug and unplug a cord if its wet without shutting it down. I would use only 12AWG cord at the smallest, longer runs, ie over 25 feet, I'd use 10AWG cord.
|
|
Julie2Oregon
Member
|
# Posted: 21 Nov 2016 01:50pm
Reply
toyota_mdt_tech
Thanks! I will look into that tool. The shabin builders are gone but I have a guy helping me. Spoke with him and he's willing to give it a go.
Looks like I'll be returning power cords and buying new ones, haha.
|
|
creeky
Member
|
# Posted: 21 Nov 2016 07:09pm
Reply
Ground plates are legal ground around here. Dig a hole 2 ft deep. Attach your 6g copper ground wire. Drop it in. Lot easier than pounding a rod.
Put one where your genny is going. You're all set.
I might ask the question, How many here have grounded their gennies? Most of them are portable. Have wheels. I can't say I've ever seen one grounded.
Good luck. And congrats. Progress pics are lookin' good.
|
|
Malamute
Member
|
# Posted: 21 Nov 2016 08:28pm - Edited by: Malamute
Reply
A tip for driving ground rods, take a 2' long scrap of 2x6, drill a 1" hole several inches in from one end. Slide the hole over the rod, one person holds board with a twist to put tension on the rod and keep it from wobbling all over as its driven with sledge hammer. Fence post drivers may work ok, maybe not. An 8 lb sledge works if you can keep the rod from bouncing all over when driving it. If the person running the sledge hammer misses, it bangs the board out of your hand, not smacking your hands. Wouldn't be fun, a direct hit with an 8 lb hammer.
|
|
cspot
Member
|
# Posted: 21 Nov 2016 08:53pm
Reply
You can drive a ground rod with a sledge. A little tough when starting out as you will need to stand on something. Putting it on a slant will help. Most using a portable generator though never ground them that I know of.
|
|
toyota_mdt_tech
Member
|
# Posted: 21 Nov 2016 09:29pm - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
Reply
Quoting: creeky I might ask the question, How many here have grounded their gennies? Most of them are portable. Have wheels. I can't say I've ever seen one grounded.
I have never grounded mine. IMHO, I wont worry about it, but the potential is there, so I am not going to be critical if someone wants to install the ground, but I certainly wont fuss over it either.
|
|
Julie2Oregon
Member
|
# Posted: 21 Nov 2016 09:41pm
Reply
I don't think we could drive an 8-foot rod without major power equipment. The highway off which sets my property is called the Volcanic Legacy Scenic Byway. Major volcanic rock in many places.
Since everything right now is turning into a much bigger thing, we just don't have time to deal with it. What was forecast as an inch or two of snow tomorrow is now a winter storm warning. We're scrambling.
I'll just use the generator sparingly, I guess, until we do the plate thing next week. Or something. I think sheltering the gen is bigger right now.
Thanks, creeky!
And thanks, all! I did pick up 12 AWG cords, though.
|
|
Steve_S
Member
|
# Posted: 22 Nov 2016 07:23am
Reply
@Julie, I used Grounding Plates for my Solar Panels & Cabin, my powerhouse luckily has the well inside it so the 6" casing took care of that side of grounding. The difference between Plates / Rods is more or less "visual", what counts for this purpose is the "Surface Contact" which one plate has equal surface as does the 8' rod.
Our Electrical code is quite similar to yours and it states to put the grounding plate 30" from your building, 24" deep into the soil, using copper ground wire (I used 8ga). This is ideal in most shallow applications such as yours.
Will you risk your Genny without it... as other's have said many use their genny's ungrounded so the CGFI won't work (if so equipped). The majority of construction tools like drills, saws that are corded don't have a ground on their plugs. In your case because you'll run it for more than just quick construction, grounding is not bad, but as I said you can just you a large Alligator Clip to attach to the grounding lug on the Genny so it's no big deal to pop on/off as needed.
We got a bit over 1 foot of that "Fluffy Rain" over the past day and more on the way... Hopefully it will stay away from you for a bit till things are setup... 4 hours of Fluffy Clearing yesterday with the ol Ariens Blower - dang drifts & high winds. I hope you have some snow clearing machinery or a plow on your 4x4.
BTW: Big CONGRATULATION HUGS on being there and making it happen !
|
|
Gary O
Member
|
# Posted: 22 Nov 2016 07:45am
Reply
Quoting: DaveBell If you used an extension cord (like 14 AWG), used the power while you where there and awake, then unplugged it for sleeping and away, you could get away with no ground.
bingo
|
|
deercula
Member
|
# Posted: 22 Nov 2016 08:48am
Reply
Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech I might ask the question, How many here have grounded their gennies? Most of them are portable. Have wheels. I can't say I've ever seen one grounded. I have never grounded mine. IMHO, I wont worry about it, but the potential is there, so I am not going to be critical if someone wants to install the ground, but I certainly wont fuss over it either.
I've used mine many times with out grounding it. Can someone please explain in simple terms what the dangers are by using it not grounded. I asked an electrician a while ago and he said if I was powering fairly new equipment, and not in standing water, I would not have to worry. Did he know what he was talking about?
|
|
toyota_mdt_tech
Member
|
# Posted: 22 Nov 2016 09:04am - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
Reply
Most power tools are plastic or no ground plug anyway. I think the fear is if a wire was to short in the tool to the tools frame, one could get bit. I have been bit plenty of times over the years with 110VAC, not the end of the world. But for some, it may be (pacemaker, age etc). Standing in water could get one bit, but who runs power tools in the water anyway? 
My cabin area is usually very dry climate, so fortunately, water hasn't been a real issue.
|
|
silverwaterlady
Member
|
# Posted: 22 Nov 2016 11:32am
Reply
We have never ground our gene either. But we don't use it all the time. I did not use it at all and I was up there all summer.
Son used it a few times for a few minutes for a small construction project.
There was never a reason for us to ground it because we never use it in wet conditions or stormy days as a safety precaution.
The manufacturer is going to recommend you ground it because they don't want to get sued if you get electrocuted.
Now if I was using my gene everyday in all types of weather I would have a concrete pad installed with anchor bolts inbeded to chain it up,a green metal roof to keep the weather off(to match our cabin)and ground it(future plan).
|
|
TerraLove
Member
|
# Posted: 22 Nov 2016 05:15pm
Reply
Does it really have to be a copper rod in the ground? That would cost a fortune. I would understand a copper grounding wire and clamps, but the whole rod sounds like a huge waste.
|
|
Bzzzzzt
Member
|
# Posted: 22 Nov 2016 06:00pm
Reply
Julie
I am an electrician. Putting in a ground rod is optimum. Using your generator without one is not a huge deal. If it's a permanent installation you probably should ground the thing because that would be better. If you have other steel that you can ground the generator to other than a ground rod that would actually be better. For instance, metal water pipes, gas pipes, or building steel (such as rebar) are preferred. A ground rod is the last line of defense. You can get one at almost any home improvement store or Amazon has one https://www.amazon.com/Erico-Products-615880UPC-Bonded-Ground/dp/B0044UQP7Y/ref=sr_1_ 3?ie=UTF8&qid=1479854874&sr=8-3&keywords=copper+ground+rod they're not horrid expensive. Grounding has been drilled into everyone's head as if the thing not being grounded is going to kill everyone within 100 miles. The truth of the matter is that prior to the 1970's almost no one had grounding. There are still houses out there with two wire plugs all over and you don't hear about people getting killed right and left. Grounding *IS* better and I *DEFINITELY* recommend it, but don't fret because you're using a generator without a ground rod unless you just can't sleep at night.
|
|
Bzzzzzt
Member
|
# Posted: 22 Nov 2016 06:02pm
Reply
And you can drive the ground rod with one of these pretty easily, usually.
https://www.amazon.com/Koch-Industries-4075233-Driver-Handle/dp/B00AN8DO16/ref=sr_1_1 ?ie=UTF8&qid=1479855715&sr=8-1&keywords=t+post+driver
|
|
toyota_mdt_tech
Member
|
# Posted: 27 Nov 2016 09:48pm - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
Reply
Quoting: Bzzzzzt Grounding has been drilled into everyone's head as if the thing not being grounded is going to kill everyone within 100 miles
I agree.
Quoting: Bzzzzzt There are still houses out there with two wire plugs all over and you don't hear about people getting killed right and left.
Not to mention, the old power tools were mainly all metal, not days, most are all plastic too, ie double insulated.
https://amazon.com/Lisle-38210-Hub-Remover-Dodge/dp/B00396DMMA/ref=sr_1_23?ie=UTF8&qi d=1480300632&sr=8-23&keywords=air+hammer+bits
I loaned these cupped air hammer bits to a buddy of mine, they are used for removing RAM truck front wheel bearing/hubs. I had a co worker borrow them to drive in a ground rod, it was for his shot and he had an 80 gallon 2 stage air compressor. And it went in like butter (Long barreled air hammer) I know you can get or borrow/rent electric commercial air hammers which is basically a jack hammer on a smaller scale
https://amazon.com/TR-Industrial-TR89100-Demolition-Jackhammer/dp/B002VN6TDG/ref=sr_1 _5?ie=UTF8&qid=1480300852&sr=8-5&keywords=electric+jackhammer
Here is a video of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EOfMtvK6xk
|
|
| . 1 . 2 . >> |
