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bldginsp
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# Posted: 7 Aug 2016 01:04pm
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I saw a Toyota Mirai the other day, an all hydrogen car, so I've been thinking hydrogen- wondering if it is viable for off grid. Can you generate hydrogen from solar panels, and store it for later electrical generation? Anybody look into this already?
Hydrogen generators are readily available- have been for years for research and maybe medical purposes. Here's an example, randomly chosen from the web-
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ELH-Series-High-Purity-H2-Hydrogen-Generator-for-Gas-Chromato graphy-ELH-1L-/251946311781?hash=item3aa92ba065:g:yWwAAOxyeZNTTTHJ
These kinds of things seem to produce about one liter of hydrogen gas per hour. I don't know what their electrical requirements are. Larger ones are available as well, but the small ones are in the $2-3000 range.
So, you put up a few extra solar panels and your hydrogen generator slowly produces hydrogen all day, and stores it in tanks. Then, you use it to power your hydrogen vehicle, and/or you use it at night via a fuel cell to generate electricity, instead of batteries.
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sparky30_06
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# Posted: 7 Aug 2016 02:18pm
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Think the issue would come with compressing it for storage. That would use a good amount of energy.
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Cowracer
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# Posted: 7 Aug 2016 02:20pm
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IIRC,
to have any kind of energy density, you have to compress the hydrogen to a couple thousand psi. The energy budget to run the compressors would be steep, to be sure.
Not saying it couldn't be done but there are some considerations to think about.
Tim
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 7 Aug 2016 03:08pm
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Don't think H is a viable diy project
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 7 Aug 2016 03:58pm - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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Toyota has been testing fleet vehicles that run on hydrogen, have been for some time. They have had Highlanders (2001ish) in Alaska for a decade. Doing cold weather testing. And they will usually run a fleet in California also. They actually had an all electric RAV4 in the late 90's, only available in California and you had to have your home wired with he charge station before you could take delivery.
A side story, one of the factory training reps told us a story of a guy in Hawaii who wanted the all electric RAV4 in Hawaii. But was only for sale to California homes/address when charge station was wired up.
He bought a home in California, had it wired, purchased a few RAV's, removed the charge stations, shipped them and the RAV's to Hawaii, then sold the home. 
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 7 Aug 2016 11:08pm
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Quoting: MtnDon Don't think H is a viable diy project
I agree Don, with the technology as it is now. There would have to be dedicated appliances for the purpose, then you choose which you want and hook it up. Like split system heat pumps, you and I aren't going to open it up and re-engineer the thing, or build our own. But since generators are within reach, seems doable with the appropriate machinery. Big advantage is no, or reduced, battery usage and the issues therein.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 8 Aug 2016 07:01am
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Hydrogen has a future but I always remember the Hindenburg and the bang potential... a wee bit more than the average fuel we handle. Safer and without requiring pressurisation + a pile of tech would be Biogas which in essence we produce everyday, just don't collect/harvest and use it.
At least these are doable at reasonable cost/expense and a tad safer I think too...
http://www.motherearthnews.com/renewable-energy/other-renewables/biogas-generator-zm0 z14aszrob.aspx
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 8 Aug 2016 11:57am - Edited by: bldginsp
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Hydrogen storage on a mass scale is untested and we don't know how dangerous it will be. I'm sure the first time a hydrogen car gets crunched and the tanks breach it will be splashed all over the media, like the few Tesla fires that have occurred. Here's an article that shows the grim statistics- 17 gasoline cars AN HOUR burn in the US, 150,000 annually, 200 people a year killed. Will hydrogen be any more dangerous?
http://www.businessinsider.com/17-cars-catch-on-fire-every-hour-in-the-us-2013-11
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sparky30_06
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# Posted: 8 Aug 2016 12:17pm
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here is a Natural Gas Powered Garbage truck on fire when the tank explodes. now imagine if that was Hydrogen. Sorry still not going to sell me on it.
https://youtu.be/Hyn3_mqHeic?t=1m
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hueyjazz
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# Posted: 8 Aug 2016 12:47pm
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Do you recall in high school science class those rigs where you used electrolysis to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. Well in my class it blew up sending shards of glass.
We were lucky that no one got seriously hurt but the key word was luck. Glass was embedded into several items around the room. It left a lasting impression and that was just a little bit of hydrogen and oxygen.
Gasoline as a liquid is fairly safe, it's the vapors that are explosive. My dad was an engineer and worked for United Shoe who had many defense department contract. One of his projects was to determine how to make auxiliary fuel tanks into bomb as they were often ejected over enemy territory. They would test the project in the desert by tying mice on the ground around the target locus. About once out of 25 times it would work as a bomb. The other times they found the mice with a little hair burned off wiggling around. I suggested he should have studied the Ford Pinto as they had it down. he didn't think it funny
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 8 Aug 2016 06:44pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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It's already been done. Here's a guy selling residential hydrogen generation devices-
http://hydrogenhouseproject.org
Watch his video. He doesn't say what it cost, I'm sure it's not cheap. But it can be done now.
Scientific American on the same guy-
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/hydrogen-house/
Commercial fuel cel manufacturer that supplies for residential-
http://fuelcellsetc.com/2015/03/what-you-need-for-a-fuel-cell-powered-home/
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 8 Aug 2016 08:11pm
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Quoting: hueyjazz Gasoline as a liquid is fairly safe, it's the vapors that are explosive.
According to this website, hydrogen is safer than gasoline-
"Hydrogen actually has many characteristics that make it safer than gasoline (e.g. it disperses more rapidly, has a narrower flammability limit, etc)"
http://fuelcellsetc.com/2015/03/what-you-need-for-a-fuel-cell-powered-home/
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 8 Aug 2016 08:29pm
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Quoting: bldginsp Hydrogen storage on a mass scale is untested and we don't know how dangerous it will be
Actually I was quite wrong about this. Hydrogen has been used in industry for numerous purposes for years and has a good safety record. It disperses very quickly when released, and like most other fuels can only burn when mixed with oxygen and will not do that as readily as gasoline vapors. It's a myth that hydrogen is somehow more dangerous than other fuels.
Quoting: hueyjazz Do you recall in high school science class those rigs where you used electrolysis to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. Well in my class it blew up sending shards of glass.
I think, huey, the reason your high school experiment exploded was because you had a hydrogen/oxygen mixture contained, and it sparked. The H and O were not separated. H can't burn without oxygen. When released in the air only the H that mixes with the correct amount of oxygen can burn.
The Hindenburg didn't explode, it burned. The hydrogen only burned as it became exposed to oxygen. A tank of hydrogen can't explode, but the H can burn if released so it mixes with air. But evidently it does not do so as readily as gasoline vapors.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 8 Aug 2016 08:37pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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Quoting: Cowracer to have any kind of energy density, you have to compress the hydrogen to a couple thousand psi. The energy budget to run the compressors would be steep, to be sure.
Evidently, storage is relatively easy. According to the website quoted above, 5 or so standard large gas bottles (like you see for oxygen, acetylene, helium) would supply the needs of an average household with a solar/hydrogen setup. They make no mention of the cost of compressing the gas. Extremely high energy density is not necessary if you have the space for half a dozen or more bottles. (I have 5 acres...)
Cost of the systems and fuel cells is the limiting factor right now. A complete system is tens of thousands of dollars. At that price it will never pay for itself. And, it still doesn't completely get rid of batteries, since they are needed for on-demand power needs.
But less batteries would be needed since the system would start burning H as soon as you turned on the television, thus the batteries would never drain down very far, making them last as long as possible.
The technology is all quite well established but mass production for residential use is not, and fuel cells have yet to come down a lot in price. So, it's kind of like solar power 20-30 years ago where the technology was there but the cost too high. Now solar is cheaper than fossil fuels in some areas, and still dropping in price.
Maybe the "hydrogen economy" really is the future, but not yet.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 8 Aug 2016 09:26pm
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Looks like the Japanese are quite ahead on home fuel cel use, but not solar. Toshiba and Panasonic manufacture 'home fuel cells' which run off natural gas or propane. The units produce both electricity and heat for the building. They are far more efficient than power plants and transmission lines for producing electricity, because they have no transmission loss and excess heat is used to heat the home. Still burning fossil fuels, but much more efficiently. Can be operated off of bio-gasses making it renewable.
Over 100,000 homes in Japan have these, the cost seems to be in the $15,000 to $20,000 range.
Wikipedia:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_fuel_cell
Bloomberg:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-01-15/fuel-cells-for-homes-japanese-compa nies-pitch-clean-energy
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Notes
Member
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# Posted: 9 Aug 2016 07:40pm
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Honda also has a cogeneration unit coming to the states soon.
http://world.honda.com/powerproducts-technology/cogeneration/
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 9 Aug 2016 11:36pm
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That's interesting- burning gas in a piston engine to generate electricity and heat, and it ends up more efficient than elec from the grid. These units will be far cheaper than fuel cel units, since all it is is an engine generator, inverter and heat transfer mechanism. Perhaps a good 'transitional' technology as we wean off fossil fuels, but ultimately the energy source must be the sun.
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sparky30_06
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# Posted: 10 Aug 2016 08:13am
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The biggest problem in the USA is our power grid system. It wasn't standardized from the start and it never has been upgraded. Varying voltages on transmission lines, transmission lines out of phase, all kind of problems. Solar has come leaps and bounds but we still have storage issues. I think MODERN nuclear is the answer with refueling plants. The rods don't have to be buried they can be reused but everyone is scared of them. I know what about Fukushima. A slightly more modern US designed reactor that was shut down in under 30 seconds. So what when wrong. The back up generators that kept the cooling water flowing got knocked out. Now my question is why didn't the move generators in?? they could have air lifted big generators in and get things back up and running. Why didn't they have double redundant systems?? but enough of that soap box.
Germany uses solar panel roofs and feed back into the grid. but you would have to let the greedy power companies pay the people or work something out so that the home owner isn't loosing money.
Also in a lot of other countries the power grid and infrastructure is POOR or non existent so the power generation and home heat systems would be a great thing.
I am intrigued by this individual system. now if it was an on demand system that would be good, but generators are either on or off.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 10 Aug 2016 08:36am
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The Honda product appeared in 2003 in Japan and has never left their island. For all intents & purposes this is Vapourware unfortunately.
There is an early PDF Doc on this here http://www.builditsolar.com/Experimental/CoGeneration/HondaCHPbbezilla.pdf which may be of interest to some, they are up to version 3 now though, so it has changed.
Champion Generators have Standby Systems that run on Natural Gas or LPG (8.5kw on sale @ 2800 $CAD) but that leaves you on external fuel sources but if you had a Bio-Digester then you'd be golden.
There is an old saying that seems to apply to the modern worlds energy issues... Lack of planning on "their" part does not constitute a crisis on my part. Where 'their' is the governments & utilities collectively. We need to plan today for our independence from "their planning" (lack thereof) tomorrow... Don't depend on something that is inherently & consistently undependable.
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sparky30_06
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# Posted: 10 Aug 2016 09:51am
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Steve_S
I couldn't agree more. I'm not a doomsdayer and building a fall out shelter with years of food. but you are right when all hell breaks loose those that can survive on their own will be the only ones that survive. or those with all the ammo and booze.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 10 Aug 2016 10:04am
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There is only one person YOU can count on when the chips are down and that is yourself.... One can never assume more than that.
Population continues to increase, pressures & stresses on our resources (water, food, energy, etc) increase along with it, add idiot politics, religions with agenda's and a good smattering of Dramatists in lock step with the greedies of the world and Conflict is inevitable... History repeating itself, yet again.
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sparky30_06
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# Posted: 10 Aug 2016 11:48am
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don't forget history being removed from the schools and public places. OK I won't climb on that soap box, today. That's when history repeats itself!!
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 10 Aug 2016 02:21pm
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I wasn't intending to start a prepper thread, but I do want to hear about alternative technologies that are renewable.
Bio-gas sounds good, but what do you really have to do to supply all or most of your energy needs with a 'digester' or whatever?
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sparky30_06
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# Posted: 10 Aug 2016 03:22pm
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Many landfills are starting to reclaim the methane gas but they are also finding out that you need air to help decompose. Many landfills are drilling injection wells to help recover this. We have many renewable energy sources, only problem is fossil fuels are WAY cheaper. Then the government gets involved and they want to make more money.
question becomes can you do it on small scale and have it be reliable and sustainable?
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 10 Aug 2016 03:49pm
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Can you do it on a small scale and have it be enough? How much kitchen scraps and other compost would a small cabineer have generate to keep the lights on?
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