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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 2 Apr 2016 10:38pm
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OK, this thing looks really good. It improves on the model I was looking to buy and the price point is even slightly lower. The propane BTUs range from 18K-43K, the temperature rise is still over 70 degrees, but this microprocessor allows you to set the temperature you want and it will mix in cold water. The previous models didn't do that so the water could be dang scalding.
The pilot light doesn't stay on and the DC electric draw is very low. You can connect it right to a battery. As for the water pressure to operate, it only requires 1 gpm to kick in.
I think this will work well. It installs in the wall, with a door facing the interior and vent facing outside. Simple. It can be used in the winter, has freeze-prevention features.
OK, what am I missing? This seems too good to be true. Lay it on me, someone. Hahahahaha!
http://www.dyersonline.com/girard-42k-btu-micro-processor-controlled-on-demand-tankle ss-water-heater.html
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 3 Apr 2016 06:36pm
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I found a series of videos done by a cute couple building a tiny house. They got one of these for their tiny house, an earlier model, and one of the videos showed the installation. Very straightforward.
I spent about an hour watching several of their videos, actually. Mostly on plumbing, gas line installation and such. I'm feeling like I *may* be able to do some of the plumbing myself with a bit more tutorials.
But the gas line installation vid convinced me that this is something I do NOT want to mess with. Even though the water heater installation looks simple enough, I'll hire someone to do it so I can pay that person to also do the gas line connecting a couple of 30 lb. tanks to serve the range and the water heater.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 3 Apr 2016 08:08pm
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Do some research or call the seller, to see what the anti freeze protection entails. Often it is done with an electric heat element. (120 VAC) When the temperature drops to the set point the heater comes on. Probably needs AC for that, but that is just a guess.
Also note the (small) but continuous current draw for the electronics that drive the igniter (0.2 amps according to the specs.... that would be @ 12 VDC I think).
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 3 Apr 2016 09:58pm
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Quoting: Julie2Oregon microprocessor allows you to set the temperature you want and it will mix in cold water. The previous models didn't do that so the water could be dang scalding.
There are plenty of shower valves available that have temperature control built in. There are two types; pressure balance types and thermostatic mixers. Pressure balance need calibrating to water heater temperatures whereas thermo-mixers are foolproof out of the box. I'm not 100% sure but I do believe they are now commonplace as I think codes require their use in new construction? We've had one for a couple of decades now; one of the very first; made by Mixit, now out of business. They are very nice as they prevent the sudden temperature change that comes with flushing a nearby toilet. Also safer for little folks and old folks. Our Mixit will actually shut off the flow completely if the cold water feed to the shower is stopped.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 3 Apr 2016 11:29pm
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Yes, that's how the freeze protection works. I believe it kicks in at 38 degrees. The unit is wired to a battery so it's all DC, which is good. Girard recommends installing a switch so you can turn off the electric bit entirely when it's not in use so it's not drawing any juice. I haven't read the manual but, just out of curiosity, I wonder if you can light it manually in a pinch?
Regarding those valves, so if my water heater is programmable like that, then I'd meet code without dealing with the special shower thingy, I hope?
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 4 Apr 2016 10:25am
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Quoting: Julie2Oregon I believe it kicks in at 38 degrees. The unit is wired to a battery so it's all DC,
The manual states it uses the DC to operate the burner and keep the water in it between 38 and 58 F. So it also uses propane as the burner is started and stopped.
Quoting: Julie2Oregon I wonder if you can light it manually in a pinch
Doubt it. No mention made for manual lighting. It does make three attempts at direct ignition and then shuts down on the third failure. That is typical of modern day RV direct ignition propane appliances.
Just so you know there is also a blower fan that operates whenever water is being used. It is to force air through the combustor. That is where the three amps DC goes when operating.
Quoting: Julie2Oregon Regarding those valves, so if my water heater is programmable like that, then I'd meet code without dealing with the special shower thingy, I hope?
You'd have to check if your code requires temperature control and if the built in control at the tank would be okay. I like them even if code does not require them, but then I live with someone and have had the experience of shower temperature spikes when another water using device was operated during a shower.
.... the user manual states the valve is optional???
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creeky
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# Posted: 4 Apr 2016 01:45pm - Edited by: creeky
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Julie2. It's a 600 dollar water heater. Hmmm. That puts a big hole in your house. Double hmmm. That requires a 12v dc power supply when you have lots of 120v ac easily available.
You know Eccotemp has a brand new l12 indoor model. 300 bucks. Modulating flame (which means you can set the temp and thats the water temp the heater delivers). Gorilla glass. lol.
I have (as do many others) the older model. Mine is 4 years old. Has survived (more or less) two freeze events. And is easily drained for travel away. I used sharkbite fittings on my pex into and out of the heater. Easy to hookup/unhook.
The Marey gets good reviews also.
An indoor water heater doesn't need freeze protection. Doesn't put a huge hole in your wall. Is half the price. Doesn't require wiring for 12v or a wall wart. That's all.
Wait. Did I mention 1/2 the price. I forget. 
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 4 Apr 2016 02:58pm
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creeky
But the Eccotemp and others like it require yet another big pipe vent sticking out of the cabin.  The temperature rise of the water with them isn't as good as this guy and they use more propane to accomplish it. The other model I wanted with the same features and good temperature rise was the Tagaki JR. About the same price point but it used a LOT of propane to accomplish what this one does. And, again, the big pipe venting.
I'm putting this in the wall of the little utility room/half bath on the first floor so it won't be out in the open. Being secured inside the wall, it will totally meet seismic code.
There are tradeoffs in everything. This water heater addresses the issues I had with the others and I'll be happier with it so it's worth the extra cost.
As for DC, I'm glad that it is. I don't like having every essential on one power source. If I had some emergency with my solar -- say the inverter broke down -- I'd still have heat, cooking ability, oil lamps, and hot water without having to run the generator constantly until I got the inverter situation sorted. 
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creeky
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# Posted: 4 Apr 2016 03:40pm
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Julie2. There's no magic formula that gets more therms out of propane. So at 42k btus the Girard will be much much lower on available water temp rise than the ecco or Tagaki.
So while the ecco and tagaki have higher btu ratings: that just means they can create more heat if the water is colder. The "modulating" flame means that the unit uses the amount of propane required. It may be 16k btu. If the water is really cold, it means it'll use up to 80k btu. (or if you have two appliances drawing hot water at the same time)
The efficiency of all three units should be identical. Well except ...
The Eccotemp needs one 3" vent hole. I think the tagaki needs one 4" hole. And can be installed through an insulated wall.
According to the install manual for the Girard
"The Water Heater cut out opening is 13" X 13". "
I don't see where that Girard says it can be installed indoors. It specifies instead
• All combustion air must be supplied from the outside of the RV, and all products of combustion must be vented to the outside of the RV.
And further states
• Install the water heater on an exterior wall, with access door opening to the outdoors.
It also says it cannot be vented other than as is. So no vent lines.
This means the Girard sits, in a box, uninsulated against the cold, on the outside wall of your home. That freeze proof heater will be running pretty steady come winter.
And the Ecco or Tagaki would be inside. Behind an insulated wall. Way easier for them to stay unfrozen.
I'm sorry, to me, this does not look like a suitable product for your needs.
(Luckily for hot water in an emergency there's always the wood stove. ) And that new i12 looks neat.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 4 Apr 2016 04:46pm
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The access door (and vent) is on the outside, flush against the exterior wall. The unit itself and the connections are on the inside. The wall insulation will help, of course. At least, that's how I saw it being installed on YouTube.
I read a user experience with the older model on an off-grid forum, a guy from Alaska said the Girard worked like a champ for them in that cold and only used a barbecue size propane tank of fuel in 3 months for 2 people's hot water needs. It didn't use a bunch of battery power, either, or freeze up. That's really good.
I will look into the new Eccotemp that you mentioned, though, and compare. I cringe at the thought of yet another pipe vent going up and out my little cabin, sigh. They do have to be rather tall. I'll have one for my pellet stove and for my compost toilet. Another one for a water heater just sux on such a small building.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 4 Apr 2016 07:45pm - Edited by: MtnDon
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Perhaps I simply missed seeing this but on a second look I do not see the published data for the maximum degrees rise the heater is capable of. That is usually listed as a rise of "X" degrees at a certain maximum flow rate in GPM. Some on demand heaters do not have sufficient rise when the incoming water is 60 degrees. I didn't find that number. Don't buy any heater that does not provide that info. You need an actual GPM and degrees, not just the statement "All the HOT Water you want when you want it!". I should have noticed that before. Figure you need 1.3 to 1.5 GPM at the shower head for a decent shower.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 4 Apr 2016 08:09pm
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MtnDon
The literature for the earlier model of this unit (2013) stated a temperature rise of up to 70 degrees. The unit is the same in all of the other specs, except for the ability to mix cold water, improved freeze protection, the digital programming instead of the dial, and the rise in the maximum BTUs so that should still stand.
http://greenrvproducts.com/girard-tankless-rv-water-heater/
What bothers me about the other on-demand units is they only promise a temperature rise of up to 45 degrees, tops, and they can use a lot more propane to achieve even that. If my cistern water is 45 degrees in the winter, 90 degrees isn't much of a hot shower on a cold winter's day, you know? Add in the big ole pipe venting, the need for a bigger propane tank and more water pressure to run, etc. and I'm left underwhelmed. That's why I figured I could just heat the water I needed in a tea kettle on the stove, until I learned hot water supplied to the fixtures was a code requirement.
I've seen the Precision Temp on-demand recommended as the best choice for tiny houses/small cabins. But it's over $1K. The Girard was ranked second and then comes Tagaki JR, Rinnae, and Eccotemp, Marey, etc.
There are pluses and minuses to everything. Right now, unless I find something else, the Girard model has more of the things that fit what I'm seeking than minuses.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 4 Apr 2016 08:17pm - Edited by: MtnDon
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Quoting: Julie2Oregon Tagaki JR
FWIW, I see more +'s for that than the Girard. It's indoor mount rated which I see as a + even if that means a vent thru the roof. But we all rate things differently using different criteria.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 4 Apr 2016 08:29pm
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creeky
This is a good pic of the unit and the pipe/vent to the outside.
I'm actually more perplexed by the placement of my propane gas lines/tanks for use by the water heater and the range. I want to connect two together via copper pipe and protect them and the pipe somehow from the elements, while also providing some ventilation around them. I'll need to check setback distances on that, plus make sure the water heater and range are on the same wall, I guess?
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 4 Apr 2016 08:32pm
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MtnDon
I like the Tagaki. But the thing is a propane guzzler, as someone here pointed out to me way back when I decided it would be a good model for me. They said I could NOT run it off a portable tank and it would burn through even a 100-pounder in a week. So that's not cool.
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FishHog
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# Posted: 5 Apr 2016 08:52am
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Quoting: creeky Julie2. There's no magic formula that gets more therms out of propane
I think this needs repeating. It's an important concept to grasp. While I'm sure there will be some minor variances, the fact is btu's are btu's. Despite what the different manuals say, its going to take the same amount of propane to raise water temp the same amount. One unit will not burn more propane than the other to get your desired temp rise.
Again, I'm being general here, as the coils and exhaust might make a small difference, it will be small. If you need a 40 deg temp rise, the Girard, and the Eccotemp are going to burn approximately the same amount of propane.
Julie your last post stating one is a propane guzzler just doesn't make sense. Think of a stove top. if your burner is large or small, it will take the same volume of propane to boil a pot of water on it. The small one might take longer but if it takes a lb of propane to make that pot boil, it will take a lb on any burner (again, pretty much, there are minor differences but not any you will notice.)
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razmichael
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# Posted: 5 Apr 2016 09:45am
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Julie, one aspect to this that has not been mentioned is that the Girard states very clearly that it is for RV use only. Obviously that does not mean it could not be installed in a cabin/house etc, but would you have any issue with an inspection?
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 5 Apr 2016 10:09am
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razmichael
I don't *think* so, from what I read in the codes but I will definitely have to ask ahead of time. From a seismic standpoint, it would be really good because of how secure it would be in the wall. Because I'm in a D1 seismic area, the code is very concerned about securing the water heater in case of a quake. I've read firsthand experiences of them being installed in tiny houses and small cabins BUT I don't know if these folks did legal builds. And tiny homes kind of fall between cracks as to classification.
FishHog and others ,
This confuses me because folks previously told me when I was first contemplating the water heater thing that I needed to pay attention to the BTU range since I'm not doing a big ole propane tank and delivery. That something like the Tagaki JR (which was my initial pick) wouldn't work for me because it went over 100K BTUs and would need to be hooked up to a big tank, not the portables that I can handle myself. 
That's why I've been banging my head against the wall looking for something that gave me a good temperature rise AND had a low BTU range. So the Tagaki really wouldn't go through a 30 lb. tank in a couple of days?
I'm figuring in the dead of winter my water going into the heater may be about 45 degrees. For a hot shower, I'd need it to be about at least 100 degrees, so I'd need a temperature rise of 55. Bottom line -- can these other on-demand propane water heaters like Eccotemp, Tagaki, Marey, etc. do that temperature rise on a 30-gallon propane tank for at least a month without a refill? I'm not terribly concerned with gallons per minute. I could always use the Zodi shower, if need be.
The Girard turns on via the water pressure and that only has to be 1 gallon per minute fpr it to work. (I'm in the middle of an interesting new development with my property and I may actually be able to gravity feed but that's an issue for another time.)
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creeky
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# Posted: 5 Apr 2016 11:03am
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Quoting: Julie2Oregon make sure the water heater and range are on the same wall, I guess?
You can run your lines where ever you like. Of course. The closer together everything is the lower your cost for pipe. I used all black iron as it was cheap. That copper stuff sure looks good though. Way easier to install.
Note: All the heaters will use the same amount of gas with a given input vs flow. What changes is how honest they are with the marketing. Yes, you can say, zoweeee, 70 degree rise in temp. But it's at .5 g / min flow X max propane use. Not 2 or 3 g/m for a good shower and 1/2 propane use.
The advantage of 80 or 100k btu is you can have higher water flow (ie. 2 taps running hot water) and still get hot water. But if you have only one tap going, the (by example) Tagaki will use the exact same amount of propane as the Girard.
I know. I've said that before. But I see you're still concerned about propane use. They will all use the same amount of propane. The bigger ones can heat more water at the same time. That's the only difference. smile.
By example: I use an older model l12 Eccotemp on a small propane tank and it lasts me a year. I'm one guy. I shower often at the girlfriends. I do laundry at home as well, usually with warm water, if I remember, urk, I turn the eccotemp down.
Any of the water heaters will suit. If you prefer a 13x13" hole vs a small pipe coming out, that's up to you.
The exposed heater will use electricity. But you've got a fair bit so you should be okay. To my mind, an indoor heater would be a safer bet. I would go 120v. Less cost for the install and less ongoing maintenance.
And I would buy an inverter with the best mtbf (cough victron cough) and not worry.
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FishHog
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# Posted: 5 Apr 2016 11:30am
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Creeky pretty much answered your question. For reference, I used my L10 on a 20lb propane tank last winter. broke ice to get water and it ran just fine gave me a nice hot shower.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 5 Apr 2016 08:46pm
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Thanks for the info, guys. Wish I hadn't been warned awhile back that I'd need a bulk propane tank to operate the on-demands. Maybe if I buy this new property via the in-town Realtor, he can get a local plumber to help me out. I'm really sucking wind on that.
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