How good of a generator do I REALLY need?

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Small Cabin Forum / Off-Grid Living / How good of a generator do I REALLY need?

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Julie2Oregon Member	# Posted: 26 Mar 2016 11:15pm Reply I'm mulling this and really could use a bunch of input. Yep, I know that Hondas are king. Here's the deal, though. I'm putting over 6 grand into a solar power system, I'm scared of power tools, I won't be running compressors and stuff on a regular basis, etc. So, my generator use will primarily be for recharging my lithium battery in long stretches of cloudy days during the winter and maybe sometimes to run an appliance that has high surge watts if I don't want to tax the battery during one of those cloudy winter stretches. Plus the unforeseen emergency, of course. So how much of a generator do I really need, as in how many watts? What's a decent, less-expensive brand? I'm looking at propane gens because it likely won't get much use in the summer and early fall with the abundant sunshine in my location (and with my 5 kw lithium batt for storage, just in case). I'll always have propane around with the propane range and such so there's no sense keeping gasoline around.

toyota_mdt_tech Member	# Posted: 26 Mar 2016 11:33pm - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech Reply Julie, I'd get the famous Honda EU2000i. It will run small stuff with economy and ease, but for a time you may need a few more amps, ie a microwave oven, vacuum cleaner etc, it can do it. If you shop around, you can get them for $950. That seems to be rock bottom now. Look for good used ones. They show up cheaper after winter. People buy them for power outages and then peddle them in spring for less. Julie, this is important part of your total pkg and you want quality stuff. The Honda will always start, start easily and work for many years with no trouble. High quality does come as a price though. You could go a 1000 watter, saves you a few hundred bucks, and it will run the smaller stuff, but you may need bigger and not have it and wished you did. I bought a extra EU2000i from my neighbor who upgraded to an EU3000is to run AC in his trailer. I got it with 150 hours for $600.

rockmtn Member	# Posted: 26 Mar 2016 11:35pm Reply Julie, I think your quest for simplicity is excellent, but I would suggest you consider the Honda EU2000; It is just such a incredibly reliable and efficient unit, and well sized to your situation. It will do up to 1600 watts continuously (and smart idle down) It will fully recharge your battery bank in a single run (~5kwh hours of output per .95 gallons of gas), so its nicely sized to your need; If you fill it and run it till empty, then its in good shape for storage to the next cloudy spell. If you look in your region you can likely find ethanol free gas, if so, you can keep a small 5 gallon tank on hand, with good longevity. Think of it of "5 recharges" (which will be the most efficient way to use the unit, since you have a very efficient battery bank!) There is also a propane conversion for this unit, but I think that adds more complexity. I have used a few generators off grid, and this unit has been head and shoulders above. (I also did not want to go "gas") Best E

pizzadude Member	# Posted: 27 Mar 2016 12:35am Reply Yep. I say Honda eu2000i as well. Easy to carry too. Quiet.... Only thing I don't like about them is there's no priming button. Consequently, I noticed the other day that my pull cord is starting to fray.

pizzadude Member	# Posted: 27 Mar 2016 01:15am - Edited by: pizzadude Reply Why I stress concern about the pull start cord is because the rope on my Rubicon pull start snapped a few winters ago when I needed it most. I have flashbacks when I try to start my eu2000is. When they are cold, may take 10 pulls to get them to fire. When they do fire up, however, might take a tsunami to stop them🍕

Julie2Oregon Member	# Posted: 27 Mar 2016 01:22am - Edited by: Julie2Oregon Reply My big question: Is a small Honda adequate for the few things that I'd actually need it to do? (And at the hefty pricetag the Honda comes with?) Those surge watts, for instance, on something like a microwave and the washing machine. The lithium battery charges faster than lead and AGM, especially since I won't be draining it down. I'm paying for 5 kw in battery storage and over 1,000 watts in panels even though my electric load will be light. I'm just trying to balance all of this and use my available funds to best benefit, you know? Also, is it risky to purchase a used generator? What does one look for that may indicate the gen wasn't maintained/treated well?

Julie2Oregon Member	# Posted: 27 Mar 2016 01:24am Reply Quoting: pizzadude Why I stress concern about the pull start cord is because the rope on my Rubicon pull start snapped a few winters ago when I needed it most. I have flashbacks when I try to start my eu2000is. When they are cold, may take 10 pulls to get them to fire. Oh, they're not electric start? I'm not sure I've got the shoulder strength to handle the pull cord thing repeatedly.

Gary O Member	# Posted: 27 Mar 2016 02:28am Reply Quoting: Julie2Oregon Oh, they're not electric start? I'm not sure I've got the shoulder strength to handle the pull cord thing repeatedly. That's where I was gonna go. Elect start Harbor freight has some nice gennys, 8750w and elect start that s/be more than enough juice for what you are describing $600 But seems Borrego talked about a champion (?) that he came to like considerably.

Steve_S Member	# Posted: 27 Mar 2016 07:05am Reply I was going to mention "needed functions" such as electric start, low oil shutoff, quiet... then more of the wants. Yankin a cord in the cold while cursing the darned machine = no fun... and Julie, seems you prefer fun vs adversity, like most of us. ;) Honda is certainly Top Notch and priced accordingly. Last fall I bought a King Canada 3Kw Inverter Generator for $999 CAD. Not a Honda but pretty good quality & well made, I've put probably 150 hours on it through fall & winter (to -25C) and zero issues. Only complaint I have is the wheels on it are too small but they are easy to replace and will be. I suppose I should also mention, that I have another Big ugly non-inverter 9Kw Generator for my Mig, Compressor etc so if the little guy fails I have a backup, just in case.

Julie2Oregon Member	# Posted: 27 Mar 2016 07:42am - Edited by: Julie2Oregon Reply Yes, I like fun! And my idea of it isn't tugging on a pull cord. Not even as a dance move. Electric start is a must. That's a nice generator, Steve_S! And it has REMOTE electric start! Am I mistaken or if I get THAT, isn't there a thingy I can get for my Magnum inverter that will let it and/or my charge controller say to the generator, "Uh, sweetie, the battery is getting lower than our Queen says it should so you need to turn on and get charging it. 'K, thanks!" and it will? Without me getting involved? I think I can set it to either take over from solar at a set level or start charging the battery. I took a look at Harbor Freight and at Champion, Gary, and Champion does have one that meets nearly all of my criteria. Gets good reviews, too. Thanks for the tip! I'd like to go with Duel Fuel, if possible. I'm pretty far from a gasoline station but there's a feed store with propane filling about 7 miles away in case of emergency. If power goes out on the grid people, you can still get propane.

rachelsdad Member	# Posted: 27 Mar 2016 08:11am - Edited by: rachelsdad Reply Champion has some stellar reviews. Luckily I've been able to see some in person. I've seen the small 2,000 watt inverter...electric start.... compelling. and the 3500 watt unit...too big for what you need..but it is inexpensive and "quiet"...relatively...and you can start them from inside you cabin. Ryobi from Home Depot seems pretty good too...but manual start All this aside...if it hits the fan....and you can live with the manual pull...go Honda...don't skimp

Steve_S Member	# Posted: 27 Mar 2016 08:28am Reply Julie, my big genny Model 41552 (7200w / 9000w) generatoris a Champion Brand and it's been a good workhorse. This one isn't Pure Sine, does not have an Hour Meter and is LOUD but it does exactly what it is supposed to. Champion is producing Dual Fuel gennies which is a terrific idea as well as Home Backup gennies that can use Propane or Natural Gas or gasoline. The local TSC has an 8.5Kw Standby genny on display, looks pretty good and I was surprised at the good price too... Champion has 2800w/3100w dual-fuel inverter-generator which is only available in the US for now which might be a solution for you as well. Either way, some sort of transfer switch will be required between the Inverter/Charger & Generator and depending on the genny, minor wiring mods may need to be done for auto-starting. Interesting Side Note on the genny wiring. My big guy has a typical start-run-stop switch and someone had their thinking cap on when they designed the genny. The switch is installed in such a way that you can just unplug the wires, tap in and plug it all back together for the remote start from transfer switch. Simply put, no hacking, cutting and resulting frustration required. Ohhh... CHOKE MODE ! Goodness gracious, almost forgot an important point... Automatic Choke !!! On my big genny, regardless of weather ho0t, cold or whatever, always have to futz with the choke to start it... That is NOT good as an auto-start from Charger/Inverter solution. My little King Inverter Genny has the electronic auto-choke... That works perfectly in warm or cold and has never given me an ounce of trouble. Last point/thought: Hour Meter ! Seems that a lot of the little gennies and even some bigger ones do not come with an hour meter... Dat's Bad JuJu ! Oil Changes @ regular intervals (X amount of hrs) is a must for something that you may have to depend on for your life. Really stupid thing that it's not there by default given that it's only worth another $2 manufacturing cost. Fortunately there are many aftermarket ones available that can be added onto the genny without any major effort... I think it was Don_P or Mtn_Don that posted a link to these a while back but I found this example for you on E-Bay Waterproof Hour Meter $6.95

groingo Member	# Posted: 27 Mar 2016 10:42am - Edited by: groingo Reply Julie: I hear you on the pull start issue with the Honda, that is why I just sold my moms Honda and got a new 4000 watt Champion with electric start. It's not an inverter but that just doesn't seem to matter, it starts at the push of a button or by using the remote or the pull starter, charges the battery while it runs or from your external trickle charger, has superb instructions and user poster and has this past season seen a lot of use, been very quiet and overall done very well plus it only cost $469.00 delivered via Amazon and to be honest the quality is very good. The remote start, it has a couple of big drawbacks, when starting any power equipment you should always be be with it in case something goes wrong and second it requires you leave the battery turned on which causes a slow but constant drain, and if you forget this you could wind up pull starting anyhow. My advise, forget the remote and avoid the mess. Regarding the generator in general, the way I do it with my solar power is to build it to meet the entire need as the primary power supply with the generator for backup and emergency use only like with extended low charge days. If you need it for occasional use this may be just the ticket. As far as dual fuel, that is a choice you will have to balance with actual need. Fuel mileage is typically better with inverter generators until you jump to 3000 watts, then they all get pretty much the same fuel mileage, 2000 and below do much better but may not have enough power and do not have electric start, so there we have the paradox. Note: Mom is 88 and very.....VERY cantankerous, blew out her shoulder last year (after tripping on new carpet) so pull start was a non starter but she loves the Champion....even has its own feather duster to keep it nice and happy! http://www.amazon.com/Champion-Power-Equipment-46539-Generator/dp/B004HSP7EK/ref=sr_1 _4?ie=UTF8&qid=1459089951&sr=8-4&keywords=champion+generators

razmichael Member	# Posted: 27 Mar 2016 10:51am - Edited by: razmichael Reply I'll suggest that you may need to first decide if you want/need an inverter generator as this will seriously impact your cost/output curve! Going with a standard generator will certainly reduce cost and likely give you more features (electric start etc) and generally have larger fuel tanks and generally much less that will go wrong. If you go with a standard type, try to size it as accurately as possible for you needs to avoid using more gas than really needed (they run at the same RPMs regardless of load although a higher load will use more fuel to maintain the RPM level). An inverter generator will normally be less noise, better on gas for low loads, smaller - but will not give you nearly as much power for the same cost. Trade-offs! I think I remember in another thread that you did not like the thought of Propane for a water heater as it is hard to get??? I don't find gas a problem with our old house generator (rarely used in the past 14 years. i use a gas stabilizer and don't keep much in the tank during the summer, then burn it off in the fall to clear it out for fresh. The stuff I keep in a container I cycle through into the car on a regular basis to keep it fresh. Not sure in your winters which is a better choice. Having said that, I do like the thought of a dual system for the flexibility Full disclosure - I also have a Honda 2000i and love it (however I bought it for $100 when my company was getting rid of it with about 3 hours of use. It was my generator for the cabin construction and I still take it up there in case I need to charge the batteries (never have yet). I think I will be buying a new Champion from Costco for the house, taking the old one to the cabin (not really a problem if it gets stolen) and just keep the Honda for other bits and pieces.

bldginsp Member	# Posted: 27 Mar 2016 03:33pm Reply Beware the ultra cheap Chinese generators. Seem like a good deal for an occasional use kind of thing. I've heard of them failing within a few hundred hours of use. I got a Briggs and Stratton 5500 watt for the cost of a Honda 2000, for construction use. When construction is done maybe I'll trade it in on something quieter with good sine wave. The Briggs cost substantially more than the other noisy poor-sine wave generators of the same wattage at that time, but it has been 100 % reliable for years. If all I needed was occasional backup and battery charge, and my quality sine wave elec was supplied by inverter from battery, I'd consider keeping the Briggs. But it is noisy as **** and I wouldn't want it running regularly. And if I had to depend on a generator for good sine wave, it's out the door. Don't spend the money on a good Honda unless you have a real reason to.

rayyy Member	# Posted: 27 Mar 2016 05:45pm Reply I have owned 4 different brands of generators and the Honda eu2000i blow's them all away. It starts everytime with just half a tug!Runs on idle if your not putting much of a load on it.Revs up automatically when you turn on a microwave,vaccuum cleaner or table saw.It even starts my air compressor with out fail.I figure it costs me about 2 dollars a day to make electricity.That's 1 dollar for gas and oil and 1 dollar a day to buy a new generator every 3 years.

Julie2Oregon Member	# Posted: 27 Mar 2016 06:08pm Reply I'm looking at this one specifically now. None of them seem to have EVERYTHING I want but this is the closest so far: http://www.amazon.com/Champion-Power-Equipment-76533-Generator/dp/B00VFDJGCE/ref=sr_1 _1?s=lawn-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1459111965&sr=1-1&keywords=champion+duel+fuel+generator Guys, thanks so much for giving me some guidance on what to look for. I have time to keep shopping but now I've got a much better idea. Groingo, you hit the nail on the head -- I see this as an on-grid home owner would view a generator (almost). After putting a lot of money and effort into the main power source, I see the generator as simply an auxiliary/emergency backup and not something to spend big bucks on. I'd contemplated whether to go whole hog on solar from the beginning or just use a generator for a while. In that latter case, buying a good (and larger) Honda would have been a no-brainer. But not now that I'm wiring the cabin and installing solar right off the bat. Steve, I found an unfamiliar brand (Powerhorse?) that said "no choke." Otherwise, a lot don't mention it. Does "no choke" mean automatic? Razmichael, I'd have problems with bulk gas delivery. It's crazy-expensive because of all of the fees the company adds to each delivery. That's why I'm sticking to appliances that run well and cost-effectively on bbq-size tanks that I can handle myself and fill at the little feed store near my property. Generators aren't as fuel efficient with propane, which is why I think that dual fuel is a good idea. With gas-powered weed-eater and such, I'll have a bit of gas around, too, just in case. Bldginsp, I see Champion is Chinese-made. Is that a problem?

Popeye Member	# Posted: 27 Mar 2016 06:43pm Reply I'll vouch for Champion generators also. While they are not a Honda or Yamaha, they are a reliable alternative. Champion is a US-based company with excellent US-based customer service! I called Champion for a replacement remote start fob. I had it in a week with instructions to call them when I received it. They walked me through the procedure over the phone to get the fob and generator to recognize each other. The horror stories with most Chinese-built generator manufacturers is lack of customer service. My dad has a Chinese generator that he ordered a recoil for 7 years ago. He still hasn't received it and never will. Coincidentally, his Champion is 7 years old and has never missed a beat.

Steve_S Member	# Posted: 27 Mar 2016 07:21pm Reply @ Julie... PowerHouse = JUNK ! I wrote about that in one of my forum threads I started. Link here: PowerHouse(tm) Inverter Generator (feedback requested) Honda, Yamaha, Champion, King, Hyundai and a few others have good reps. BTW: China produces both Good & Bad products like ANY industrial nation. DeWalt, Port Cable, Black & Decker, Stanley Tool and many many more are made in China... Did you know that Volvo is Chinese and has been for nearly a decade ? Never mind the Chinese computer your using now.... LOL.

bldginsp Member	# Posted: 27 Mar 2016 07:47pm Reply Julie- these days it's hard to tell what you are getting when you get Chinese manufactured goods. The Champions seem to get a lot of good reviews, but the reviews read like paid shills loading up the review sites, which unfortunately is common today. One site I saw said that Champion work well and are the best buy for the money, meaning the least expensive in the short term. But they also said that this economy comes at the expense of longevity. To me, that speaks volumes. My personal philosophy is to get what I know is higher quality, and maintain it well. In the long run it pays off both financially and in terms of reliability. I would never buy a Champion generator- it's the low cost alternative and you get what you pay for. You are setting yourself up to live off grid in a remote area where you will on occasion be snowed in for periods of time. Yes, I think getting a cheaper generator is a problem. It will probably work just fine for a few years, then crap out on you when you need it most.

toyota_mdt_tech Member	# Posted: 27 Mar 2016 09:14pm - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech Reply Quoting: Julie2Oregon Oh, they're not electric start? I'm not sure I've got the shoulder strength to handle the pull cord thing repeatedly. Good news, the EU3000is comes with electric start. In fact, it even a remote start kit available, ie start it inside your home. But it comes at a price too. I wouldn't hesitate to look for a used one on cragslist, you can tell alot by looking at the housing. Does it look clean, little to no scratches, probably well cares for, or does it look like it was drug down a road behind a truck for 20 miles? Amazon shows them for $1999. http://www.amazon.com/Honda-EU3000iS-Starting-Portable-Inverter/dp/B0002XC0V2

Julie2Oregon Member	# Posted: 27 Mar 2016 10:02pm - Edited by: Julie2Oregon Reply $2K for a generator? No can do. That's almost $1,200 over my budget for one and I can't keep going over budget on things or this project ain't happening. There's only so much I can stretch. Snow doesn't mean that the solar panels won't produce. If there's even just a bit of light peeking through those clouds, snow will magnify it. I just have to keep up with clearing the panels. Worst case scenario if there's 0 production from my panels for 4 days, my 5 kw battery goes down to 20 percent, and the generator doesn't work, I shut everything down until the next sunny day and use my oil lamps for light, don't watch TV, and move my freezer outside so I don't lose my frozen food. Of course, there are other less severe conservation measures that could be taken in advance of that if the forecast shows dense extended cloud cover for several consecutive days that preclude even 1,000 watts of monocrystalline panels from producing much of anything. I'm keeping my electric loads light and building a good system so that I'm not very dependent on a generator for charging. My goal is to use just a fraction of the watts my panels are producing during the day for my actual electric needs, with the rest going to storage so that battery is as close to being fully charged off my panels as possible. Much easier in the spring, summer and early fall, of course, so the generator will mostly be used for charging during cloudy stretches in the winter. But I'll conserve more, too, then. Thus, whichever generator I buy won't be racking up a lot of hours quickly. That said, I'm not one who's penny wise and pound foolish. I just think there's often middle ground and it's important to buy well but buy what one needs. Love my Saab that's actually a happy marriage between Saab and Subaru. I didn't need a Cadillac and it wouldn't have made me any happier these past 10 years.

Just Member	# Posted: 27 Mar 2016 10:38pm Reply Quoting: Julie2Oregon light peeking through those clouds j2 You will be pleasantly surprized at how much they put out on even the darkest days . I am very happy with my 1000 watts of monos they work and its free !! I have a brush squeegee combo with a 5 ft. handle for cleaning snow and frost , its not hard work and it is instantly rewarding .

Julie2Oregon Member	# Posted: 27 Mar 2016 11:26pm Reply Quoting: Just j2 You will be pleasantly surprized at how much they put out on even the darkest days . I am very happy with my 1000 watts of monos they work and its free !! I have a brush squeegee combo with a 5 ft. handle for cleaning snow and frost , its not hard work and it is instantly rewarding . YAY! That's great to hear! The brush/squeegee is an excellent idea! Thanks, Just! Yeah, I thought it was more important to tweak the solar budget higher because that will pay off, really. Panels last a long time. A lithium battery will last longer than the others, too, providing many more cycles and the capacity for deeper discharge in a pinch.

groingo Member	# Posted: 28 Mar 2016 12:40am - Edited by: groingo Reply Julie: One key thing I do when I know batteries may be lacking is to be prepared for a low power situation, have alternatives to your normal every day behavior that will allow you to conserve power until things get better but the most important is when you have the generator charging do everything you can to reduce the load on the generator and allow it to focus on the most important thing which is charging your batteries....this is because of the fuel use in all generators will jump dramatically if you go over 50% load which means fuel mileage can be dramatically reduced....know your energy requirements and prioritize energy use for most efficient results, your KillaWatt meter is your best friend when it comes to energy management and actually be fun too!

Jebediah Member	# Posted: 28 Mar 2016 07:01am - Edited by: Jebediah Reply When it comes to generators I don't think it matters on the brand at all, it comes down to available funds and the options; weight, dual fuel, electric start etc. I have many friends ,we all have different genny's , trucks, boat motors, snow blowers, ski-doos etc. I have 4650 hrs on my Champion(6500w) and I hardly ever follow the maintenance schedule. I do use a heavy weight oil and an additive. I just bought x2 2000 inverted champions with the parallel kit for a remote fly in camp because I know someone who has been using theirs now for 2 years, everyday for a few hours morning and night with no issues. My neighbour bought a Champion 2 yrs ago and its been nothing but a headache for him... I always chuckle when I read a review on a product that someone has had for a few weeks and used it twice and its touted as the greatest thing since sliced bread.

old greybeard Member	# Posted: 28 Mar 2016 08:13am Reply Julie I was in the same boat. I rarely use my genny, maybe once every 3 years. Plus I keep it at camp where it could be stole. No way I was putting a $2k honda up there to gather dust and be stolen. I bought a Champion 4k. It did have a gas valve issue, replace under warranty. But it runs, its quiet. And if its stolen I'm only out $299. I did call the 1-800 number before buying. Answered by a knowledgeable guy in the USA. And they got me the piece I needed immediately. If I didn't have solar and used the genny alot I'd consider a Honda. We use them at work, they're good, but even they have broken down.

cman47c Member	# Posted: 28 Mar 2016 11:46am Reply The Champion low wattage, electric start are nice, but the electric start models don't seem to offer 220 VAC if you have stuff that runs on 220 VAC, all 120 VAC outputs.

creeky Member	# Posted: 28 Mar 2016 01:00pm Reply With your system you won't be using the genny much, if at all. Particularly with a lithium battery setup. Three things to consider: * a genny that matches the charge capacity of the inverter/charger combo. I forget the inverter/charger you're looking at. But if it's a 50 amp charger at 12v (14.2 max peak charge on lithium) you would need at least 700 watts. A 1kw genny would be fine. Remember, you're only bulk charging for a maximum of an hour. * gas for cold weather areas. One advantage of gas motors is they are less prone to being fussy even on very cold days. Propane for long idle times. Propane doesn't go bad. If I lived in a remote area that didn't get as cold as my place gets, I'd be on propane. My place is -30C many winter mornings. My gas honda always starts. It's a pull start. Very easy. If I need to pull more than 5 times, usually once to prime and starts on the second, there's something else wrong. Like I'm outta gas. * go as low cost as possible. The odds really are that you won't use the thing. I would think the Champion or a small Hyundia from Walmart would be great. PS-I also have a sweeper for my panels. And it is very rewarding to look at my morningstar read out, 15 watts! Yikes! then go sweep the panels. 185 watts -- that's better!

rockmtn Member	# Posted: 28 Mar 2016 03:41pm Reply Julie, Having read your comments, and everyone elses... I would suggest two paths: 1) Honda EU2000. I understand you desire an electric start, but this is a very easy to start unit. It will likely last you "forever" and more than cover any of the loads you mentioned. I know you have a limited budget, but this is one area that I think it makes sense to spend a little more (950 vs 550). My story: I bought TWO home depot generators (Of various brands mentioned) and over time, they all died out of warranty. I finally bought the Honda and never looked back. I would have saved a lot of money if I just spent the extra up front. You could even get away with EU1000 to save a little. (799) 2) Given your "flexibility" RE: lifestyle (e.g oil lamps) and investment in solar: Don't buy a generator!--- with Lithium Ion you can discharge pretty deeply w/ out needing to recharge, and if you are willing to forgo TV etc then with your solar system, you really won't ever need one. If you do decide you need one, and are leaning towards the ones at HomeDepot, not a huge lead time to go out and get one. (and in the mean time, you can be saving that capital for something else). Good luck!

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