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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 21 Mar 2016 07:44pm
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So the guy I bought my land from fully disclosed that a well at my elevation may be very pricey. Or may not, it's a gamble. I was planning on using a cistern but when I started getting into the soil composition of the area recently for the foundation -- and my plan to excavate to the ledge rock which lies just 20-40 inches below the surface -- I started thinking.
If the soil contains basalt and tuff with a bit of clay and there's rock just below, wouldn't there be WATER not terribly far down? Sure, if you're building an 1,800 sq. ft. home for a family, you'd need to drill down hundreds of feet to secure a well that will consistently produce several hundred gallons/day. But my need is so small -- say, 30 gallons/day. And if there's rock and such just below, wouldn't drilling 50 or so feet likely find a decent amount that would be readily replenished by rain and snow?
There's no farming near me. I won't have a leach field. No pesticides or unusual amounts of contaminants. I'm not even necessarily wanting this water for drinking as there's a lot of spring water available that I'd prefer for that. (SO many springs in this area that I'm actually hoping to tap into a pathway for one if I could be that lucky, lol.)
So would is a shallow well possible or am I deluding myself? I found this kit when I Googled the subject and it was mentioned in an article. Don't know if it works. But it's cheap enough to be worth a shot and I could certainly find guys to hire to give it a go. I've read the Oregon regs for wells online and land owners can drill themselves. I'm just leery of hiring a well driller who'd insist on NOT doing a shallow well and presenting me with a huge bill for drilling down 400+ feet. (That's the depth one of my neighbors went for his well but he has a big place and a family.)
http://howtodrillawell.com/
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 21 Mar 2016 07:48pm
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I forgot to mention that someone told me anecdotally to go where the Ponderosa Pines are on your land for water and good soil. They thrive in the best areas. Don't know if that's true or not. Juniper grows anywhere, lol.
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 21 Mar 2016 08:14pm
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Do you have a spring on your property ? If so , simply dig down to the rock there and lay a sand point on top of the rock attach a black poly hose leading to the cabin back fill the hole and trench and buy a pump . If you do not have a spring you could try digging to the rock were you think it has the most cover and see if there is any water down there . I am sure you will have a backhoe there to dig your footings .
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Wendigolake
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# Posted: 21 Mar 2016 08:21pm
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If you do a shallow well you need to watch for potential surface water contamination. Even though you are not near a farm, surface water draining naturally can be contaminated. Make sure your well casing is high enough that no run off can get into your well basin. It is possible to put in a small chlorination system in if contamination is possible. I have had shallow wells and dug wells before and run off in the spring was always a concern.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 21 Mar 2016 08:58pm
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Just
I'm going to pore over my property looking for evidence of a potential underground spring. If you look at a map of my area, the first thing you notice are marked springs. Everywhere. In fact, the little town of which I'll be a part has a big celebrated spring in the center, around which is the town park. There's a lot of water underground in these parts. How far underground in a particular area is the question.
Thank you for the good pointers! 
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Julie2Oregon
Member
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# Posted: 21 Mar 2016 09:01pm
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Wendigolake
And there is runoff and recharging with the snow. Thanks for the tips!
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DaveBell
Moderator
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# Posted: 21 Mar 2016 09:13pm
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I think IBC requires minimum 20 ft depth.
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Julie2Oregon
Member
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# Posted: 21 Mar 2016 09:17pm
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Quoting: DaveBell I think IBC requires minimum 20 ft depth.
Yeah, I figure with rock so shallow that I can find sufficient water for my needs within 50 feet. I'd need to test and take precautions, of course.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 21 Mar 2016 10:21pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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Quoting: Julie2Oregon wouldn't drilling 50 or so feet likely find a decent amount that would be readily replenished by rain and snow?
I'm afraid that believing you know what is likely to happen when you drill a well is a rather risky business. Just cause there is rock there doesn't mean there is water in the first 50 feet of rock.
Other wells in the area are your best indication of what you are likely to encounter. Granted, your neighbor has much higher needs than you, but that doesn't mean they hit a small amount of water at 50 feet. Ask where the water level is in that well- they probably didn't hit water til they got to 300 feet or more.
Quoting: Julie2Oregon So would is a shallow well possible or am I deluding myself?
It's certainly possible but you are deluding yourself if you think you can figure out where the water is before you drill. There just is no way. You don't know what the geology is, where the fissures in the rock are, what the general level of the water is. Your best indicator is the closest well to you at similar altitude and slope.
My neighbor drilled at his property, got to 200 feet and quit because he ran out of money. The money he spent was wasted. Later he drilled further downhill at valley altitude where he knew the water was, hit it at 50 feet (at valley floor) drilled to 100 and now has a productive well, but he has to pump it up hill through 800 feet of line.. My closer neighbor drilled to 275 feet ( on the hillside 300 feet above valley floor), hit some water and quit, but the well produces water so slowly they can only pump for 20 minutes at a time. They did not drill further to get a better flow rate by hitting more fissures in the rock.
I drilled at 300 feet above valley floor, drilled through 300 feet of clay, no water. At 300 feet we hit gravel and lava, which produced a slow rate. I kept going. At 360 feet it had a decent rate, 8-10 gpm, but just barely, so I kept going. At 380 feet we were in hard serpentine, hit a big fissure, and the flow rate jumped to 30gpm. I kept going, to 400 feet. I have an excellent well.
I was set up financially before I started to be able to drill to 600 feet if necessary. It doesn't pay to quit, or to assume at what level you will hit water. You must be prepared to keep going, cause you can't know until you drill.
The reward is that availability of water is not an issue. If you quit when you first hit water, then you are just barely in the water table, so next serious drought your well may dry up as levels recede.
There are places where the geology and water level are highly predictable, and places where they are not. You are only a few hundred miles from me, and I'm told that the western US has some of the most complex and unpredictable geology in the US. And, I think you've said, you are on a hillside. Water drains down through hillsides and collects in the valley floors between. You almost always drill deeper on a hillside.
The Indians were smart. They didn't try to live up on a hillside where there is no water, they lived down by the creeks. We silly Europeans have to have the water where we want to be, and we pay a heavy price for that sometimes. I went into $22,000 debt to do mine.
I wish you luck, and encourage you to be ready do what has to be done if the luck just isn't there.
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Julie2Oregon
Member
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# Posted: 21 Mar 2016 10:50pm
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bldginsp
You hit the nail on the head of why I wasn't even going to try for a well at first. It IS a roll of the dice. Unless, of course, I do find some obviously signs on my land upon much closer inspection.
And perhaps when we excavate for the foundation and the septic test pits, the contractor will have some insight.
Thanks!
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 21 Mar 2016 11:04pm
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You're welcome, but I don't think anything you find on the surface or first 10 feet (or 100 feet) is going to give you any indication unless you get lucky and hit a spring or something.
Which reminds me of Gerard Depardieu in "Jean de Florette" and the sequel "Manon of the Spring". Good Netflix choice, it's a story about a spring, a well, a determined man, a jealous fool, a loving daughter and the tragedy of human vanity. Check it out.
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NorthRick
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# Posted: 21 Mar 2016 11:40pm - Edited by: NorthRick
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Think about approaching it in stages. Figure out a reasonable depth you can afford to drill to. 50ft, 100ft, whatever. Figure you may or may not hit water. If you don't, it's not necessarily wasted. Have your driller complete the borehole such that they can come back at a later time, when you have more money, and go deeper.
Yes, it is a risk, but with wells, you just don't know until you try. If your budget is limited, limit the cost - just realize you may not get water the first time out. If you do, Yay!
If going this route, be realistic and plan to pay for a drilling depth that at least has a chance for hitting water for your area. You pay for mob/demob costs - the cost of the driller getting all his equipment and personnel to your site and back. You want to make sure that the cost of actually drilling the well is in reasonable proportion to the mob/demob fee.
Good luck!
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 22 Mar 2016 12:24am
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Quoting: bldginsp You're welcome, but I don't think anything you find on the surface or first 10 feet (or 100 feet) is going to give you any indication unless you get lucky and hit a spring or something.
Well, the guys are doing my excavation are entirely local and have been in the septic and excavation business in the little town and on the mountain for decades. So while this is a tough thing to nail down, they know the land, the rock, and the soil, and have done work for just about everyone on the mountain and would have some wisdom on the matter, I think. I wouldn't demand an answer as to how many feet but they've got some knowledge and experience to opine whether I'd likely be looking at closer to 400, like the guy over on Kingfisher Drive, or 800, as others have encountered. I've read that permeability is a factor.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 22 Mar 2016 12:27am
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NorthRick
That's reasonable. Luckily, you don't have to pay the state any permit fees or register anything until you actually have a working well installed. So, there's that.
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old243
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# Posted: 22 Mar 2016 09:49am
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Julie, If you have a contractor , at your site. Pick his brain a bit , about what he would do if it was his place. I don't know how much land you have . Assuming that you would be happy tapping into a spring , or side hill soak. Have him dig some test holes, to see what is there. A backhoe can soon cover a lot of ground . If you do hit a soak , you might create a French drain. Filled with 3/4 clear stone with a 4 inch big O drain pipe , in the bottom, to a storage area. Any water source should be up grade from your cabin. While this might be a temporary set up, It might serve your needs. At our hunt camp we dug a large deep hole , in a wet area upstream from our building. Filled it with 3/4 clear stone. Have an 8 inch rigid plastic water pipe , to the bottom. We are able to supply the camp with water for dishes etc, We bring our drinking water with us. Hope this might be of some help. old 243
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Gary O
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# Posted: 22 Mar 2016 10:34am
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Don't know if this was mentioned or not (skimming thru the forum, saving precious gigs), but to cut down on mob/demob costs (they're horrendous) if you hire a driller, folks here have sought out others in the area that are ready to drill.
Costs can be halved.
Also, its good to get yer name out there for others to seek you out.
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Jebediah
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# Posted: 22 Mar 2016 10:45am
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This is exactly what I would do first and have done many times.
Quoting: old243 Have him dig some test holes, to see what is there.
If the seepage is slow you can always use a cistern and trickle system to stay topped up. It does require another pump so if you are on solar it could be an issue.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 22 Mar 2016 01:48pm
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Thanks, guys, great ideas all! Yep, I'm not seeking a gusher. Just something to help out for dishes, weekly laundry, and a daily shower. Like you described, old243.
I'll be doing rainwater catchment but rain is sparse in the summer months. It would be great to have a little setup to help get by and not have to rely on water delivery as much then.
Oregon lets you share a well with neighbors. I don't have any neighbors at present but that would be something to look at in the future if/when people build around me to share the cost of a deep well. You really have to get the costs, responsibilities, and rights spelled out in a legal document, though, particularly for the future when the properties change hands.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 22 Mar 2016 02:52pm
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Quoting: Julie2Oregon So while this is a tough thing to nail down, they know the land, the rock, and the soil, and have done work for just about everyone on the mountain and would have some wisdom on the matter, I think.
Relying on the wisdom of locals is very important. I'd be interested to hear what they have to say.
My driller has been drilling in my area for decades, he drilled two holes close to my place on the same hillside. I told him where I wanted the well, he got out his water witching gadgets and went at it. He said we would hit water at 300 feet. We hit water at 292 ft. Did he guess 300 feet because water witching is magic, or cause he is experienced in the area. Only his hairdresser knows for sure.
As politely as I can, Julie, I hope you will re-think the idea of drilling just a few feet for a shallow well that will be replenished by rainwater. It doesn't work that way- either you hit water or you have a dry hole. You have to get into the water table to get anything at all, and no one can tell you for certain how deep that will be. Drill til you hit, no other way. Ok- off my soap box.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 22 Mar 2016 03:16pm
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Quoting: bldginsp As politely as I can, Julie, I hope you will re-think the idea of drilling just a few feet for a shallow well that will be replenished by rainwater. It doesn't work that way- either you hit water or you have a dry hole. You have to get into the water table to get anything at all, and no one can tell you for certain how deep that will be. Drill til you hit, no other way. Ok- off my soap box.
I get what you're saying, bldginsp. I'm not likely to drill at all unless/until I can go "whole hog." I'm interested in my land and its geology for a number of reasons and will be VERY interested in what the excavation guys see and muse about.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 22 Mar 2016 03:34pm
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I was fascinated with what I learned about the geology when I drilled. 300 feet of clay, which they said is supposedly decomposed volcanic ash. Then 60 feet or so of lava- poured out on the surface of the earth who knows how many eons ago. Below that an older layer of metamorphic serpentine. That was fun watching it happen. Expensive theater ticket, though.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 22 Mar 2016 04:13pm - Edited by: Julie2Oregon
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I hope they at least provided a tub of popcorn with extra butter, included in the price of admission! 
I found this soil survey of the mountain first done in the '60s and then resurveyed in 1997. Very interesting. The area is/was volcanic, of course. Crater Lake is an absolute wonder!
https://soilseries.sc.egov.usda.gov/OSD_Docs/L/LORELLA.html
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 22 Mar 2016 06:36pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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That's interesting, never seen one of those. Tells us a lot about the first 20 inches, nothing about what's under. But they can't tell us about what's under, except in the most general terms. Basalt, volcanic deposits, whatever, but at what depth is which? And that, even if we knew it, wouldn't tell us the big thing- where is the water? Water can be in every type of rock, gravel, sand, clay, soil, whatever, but it can also be absent from the same, or simply at a very deep level. The presence or absence of a certain type of soil or rock does not ensure or prohibit the presence of water. Rainwater falls and most absorbs into the earth, and goes down til it hits the water table, then it flows laterally til it hits the ocean. It all comes back to the same hard choice. Are you willing to look for it?
While drilling my well, we went through 300 feet of clay before hitting anything else. The driller had a frustrated look on his face. Water generally does not move quickly through clay, and this clay was dry. Then at one point he walks up to me with a big grin on his face and pours a little gravel in my hand. We finally got through the clay into a gravel layer. "That's where the water is!" He exclaimed.
Anyone can tell you that water travels through ancient subterranean gravel layers (sometimes, sometimes not). No one can tell you if you will hit one with your well, or if it has water in it if you do.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 22 Mar 2016 07:23pm
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Living in Texas, I've had my fill of clay. I despise clay and will NOT be sorry to drive far away from the horrible stuff. With Texas weather, the clay is either a thick, sticky, squishy soup because we've had 3 months worth of rain in 2 days or you've got huge crevices in your yard because it hasn't rained in ages, everything's dead, and the clay is baked.
I spoke with the planning director today. He said that with a cistern, I could simply sketch the system showing the components and setbacks and it's all good. Thank goodness. We still can't find a dang plumber. My builder said the few good ones even in Medford are booked solid and are now charging an arm and a leg. I guess everyone's going to college these days for God-knows-what. No one wants to be a plumber. Sigh ...
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 22 Mar 2016 07:40pm
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Might be a local plumbers union, you could try them
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Littlecooner
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# Posted: 22 Mar 2016 09:04pm
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Julie, this could be good reading for you on the water well question
http://pubs.usgs.gov/wri/1984/4095/report.pdf
In my part of the world there are published maps that one can use to determine the depth to the aquifer that is necessary for maximum depth of the well to reach water. I do not know what part you are headed to so I can not help on finding a map. What is the city or county that you will be located near?
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annarosy
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# Posted: 23 Mar 2016 04:21am
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Might be a local plumbers union, you could try them
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Julie2Oregon
Member
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# Posted: 23 Mar 2016 05:50pm
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The plumbers union is a great suggestion. Thanks, guys! The other thing I've thought about is contacting a local vocational school to see if they could recommend any of their advanced students, perhaps with supervision?
Otherwise, I'm just going to have to hire a general, older handyman with a lifetime of experience/skills and hope their references are legit. I've seen ads for such folks in the local publications online.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 23 Mar 2016 05:54pm - Edited by: Julie2Oregon
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Littlecooner
I'll be in Klamath County, on Bly Mountain Cutoff. There's really no city near me. A small city nearby is Klamath Falls but the elevation is about 1,000 ft. below mine and the landscape differs somewhat. The nearest sizable city is Medford but that would likely be a very different soil/geological type since it's in the Rogue Valley. Bend is about 150 miles north of me.
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Littlecooner
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# Posted: 24 Mar 2016 11:47am
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Julie - I googled "Klamath county aquifer maps" and found several items. The most interesting for you appears to be this 115 page report from the mid 1970's that has very details of individual water wells, including ground elevation, depth of well, owner, type of pump, etc. This could help educated one on what on could be looking to expect if you decide to dig a well.
https://www.oregon.gov/owrd/gw/docs/gw_report_21_klamath_basin.pdf
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